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Zacharias

Ll Wants To Sell And Wants Me Out - What Are The Options?

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Hello again

it has happened to me for the second time recently - LL wants to sell and would not extend the tenancy agreement. I got served the S21 notice with a mumbled promise that the LA will find me something instead. I also asked them if I can stay here on a rolling monthly contract while the house is being sold - it takes about 3 months till contacts exchange anyways, but he would not agree. the LL wants a silly price for the house, ca 20- 30 K higher than comparable houses in the area, the roof has leaks, boiler is old, electrics need urgents overhaul and a big family of council tennants has moved in next door with all the associated noise and rubbish and old furniture in the front garden. He has no chance of selling it as it is , but he wants me out anyway. The problem for me is that I have small kids one of whom attends a local school and there are no affordable houses in the area now, the current agent can't help me either. I still have ca 3 weeks till the notice expires and I am confused about what to do now. Could anyone advise please?

Zac

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Well with only 3 weeks until the notice runs out you have to plan to leave. The landlord ultimately makes the decision, you don't have any right to stay, so your first priority must be to find somewhere else to live.

I'm surprised that the landlord wants the property empty though, it is likely as you say that he'll be paying the mortgage on an unrented house for an extended period. It's worth making this point to him in a reasoned way but if he sticks to his decision there's nothing you can do.

Best of luck.

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I am just thinking - what if I managed to get him to let me stay on a monthly basis and paid another month's rent - i heard somewhere that accepting money as rent counts as tenancy extension - would it not make the S21 notice lapse? This would give me a few months till other houses become available in the area, at this moment there is really nothing, apart from 1400 pcm houses I cant afford

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Well with only 3 weeks until the notice runs out you have to plan to leave. The landlord ultimately makes the decision, you don't have any right to stay, so your first priority must be to find somewhere else to live.

I'm surprised that the landlord wants the property empty though, it is likely as you say that he'll be paying the mortgage on an unrented house for an extended period. It's worth making this point to him in a reasoned way but if he sticks to his decision there's nothing you can do.

Best of luck.

I would have left already but there has been nothing similar available, I have also been misled by the agent who told me they would assist me in finding something new and also left the question of tenancy extension open till recently. The house may have no mortgage on it as it is a pretty old one, probably already paid off. But I still think this Steve guy has been duped by the estate valuers into thinking he can sell it for this much, maybe he wants me out because he thinks an empty house will sell better?

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He is under no obligation to sell it and may well want you out to get a higher paying tenant. Wanting to sell is a common excuse. You will have to leave but if you cannot find somewhere else quickly you can always delay by not moving and forcing him to apply for an eviction order, which will come with a fresh notice period.

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It would be up to the court to decide if the S21 did lapse after money was received. When I took similar legal advice I was told that it was unlikely that the courts would recognise this argument. You could end up having to pay costs and have a judgement against you. If you do manage to get an extension make sure that you have it in writing.

If you LL did apply to the courts for an eviction order then there would be a delay in getting this. When I last asked I was told it would take 6 weeks even if fast-tracked in my area. The CAB in your area may know what the delays are like there. Also your local council may have a person who deals with private tenants and disputes (mine does or did).

It is appalling that a family can be forced out of rented accomodation under these circumstances. It may be a good idea to contact the local CAB or Shelter and ask for someone to check your AST and the S21 to make sure that the S21 was served correctly.

With your LL it comes down to bargaining power. You don't think it will sell, so he faces having no income coming in as rent. You could offer to do viewings and keep the place looking really smart in return for staying until you find somewhere else to move to. Other tenants have been able to negotiate a rent decrease to cover this.

Good luck. Really sympathise with the position you are in as we've been forced out many times.

Edited by Flopsy

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He is under no obligation to sell it and may well want you out to get a higher paying tenant. Wanting to sell is a common excuse. You will have to leave but if you cannot find somewhere else quickly you can always delay by not moving and forcing him to apply for an eviction order, which will come with a fresh notice period.

I am not sure about that, an estate agency has already been involved, for sale signe erected, and there has already been three viewings

I would like to avoid all the hassle with courts and paying their costs etc

I think that if he just wanted to increase the rent he could discuss it with me. he will get 50 pounds more at best anyway

However I found it on Shelter website that :

"How long is the notice valid for?

...

If the landlord is using the assured shorthold procedure, the notice will be valid indefinitely. The only exception would be if your landlord does something to suggest that a new tenancy has been started - you might be able to argue that this is the case if s/he has given you a new tenancy agreement, or increased the rent."

I wonder what if he allowed me to stay and accept money as a "rent" perhaps then I could argue that a periodic tenancy started

"Mesne profits

Mesne profits is a funny old phrase, and a bit confusing.

First of all, pronunciation. You say meene (rhyming with clean), not mez nay.

But what are mesne profits? Well its a way of avoiding the rule that if you accept rent it implies that there is, or creates, a tenancy, and is most commonly used for payments made after a court order for possession has been made against the tenant.

This payment is often now referred to as an occupation payment or charge.

The other important use, is where something has happened to end a tenancy, for example in a common law tenancy the tenant has had a notice to quit served on him, or has done something which will entitle the landlord to forfeit the tenancy.

The landlord will not want to prejudice his right to recover possession in those circumstances, so the tenant will be told that any payments received will be accepted as mesne profits, and should not be taken as an intention to create a new tenancy."

Any thoughts?

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We had similar advice about the mesne payments. One LL wrote back and said that they would consider our rent in that way.

However, when one didn't, I was still advised that the court would decide if a new tenancy had been established.

Good luck with this.

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I am just thinking - what if I managed to get him to let me stay on a monthly basis and paid another month's rent - i heard somewhere that accepting money as rent counts as tenancy extension - would it not make the S21 notice lapse? This would give me a few months till other houses become available in the area, at this moment there is really nothing, apart from 1400 pcm houses I cant afford

The LL cannot evict you with just the S21.

He has to get a court order to enforce it.

This will take him one or two months (during which time you are still liable for the rent so your paying this does not invalidate the S21 notice).

If he has to evict via the courts this may incure you in some additional costs.

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What's your local council like?

It's an outside chance, but with a sprog and under notice to quit, you might just get priority on the gravy train.

I don't know, never dealt with them, do you think it may make sense to approach them? we have some savings between us, but being on low income right now we probably could not get accepted by a new landlord, on the other hand having ca 10K savings may make us ineligible for council housing, what do you guys think?

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If you are being made homeless I would suggest talking to Shelter. I understand there may be a good chance of scoring a council freebie out of this if you play it right.

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By "trespasser" I mean a person in actual occupation of land who is not entitled to be in occupation.

By "owner" I mean the person entitled to immediate occupation but who does not have it because the land is occupied by a trespasser.

"Mesne profits" is money payable for occupation by a trespasser to the owner.

What follows relates specifically to assured shorthold tenancies.

A section 21 notice does not bring a tenancy to an end. Since it does not bring the tenancy to an end a tenant who stays in occupation after the notice expires is not a trespasser. The landlord is entitled to demand and receive rent after a section 21 notice expires. There is absolutely no need to refer to any payments received after the notice expires as mesne profits. Indeed, even after an order for possession is obtained the position remains the same because the tenancy continues until possession is obtained.

The situation is different if the tenant brings the tenancy to an end by notice to quit or the exercise of a break clause. If he remains in occupation he is a trespasser. Any owner who accepts "money for occupation" from such a trespasser runs the risk that he will create a new tenancy. Whether a new tenancy arises depends on all the circumstances. The words "mesne profits" are not a magic formula which on its own prevents a tenancy from arising. Equally using the word "rent" is not necessarily conclusive that there is a tenancy.

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I actually like the house and negotiated purchase , but as I am not willing to pay the silly price they demand (15 k higher than larger and newr houses in the same area) the negotiations fell through last Thursday only. Until them I was not sure whether I will have to move out at all. do you guys think it will give me some leverage if it comes to the court? like landlord stopping me from moving by potential sale?

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I actually like the house and negotiated purchase , but as I am not willing to pay the silly price they demand (15 k higher than larger and newr houses in the same area) the negotiations fell through last Thursday only. Until them I was not sure whether I will have to move out at all. do you guys think it will give me some leverage if it comes to the court? like landlord stopping me from moving by potential sale?

If the LL has a statutory right to posession (i.e a correctly served S21) the court will take nothing into accout when giving the LL the possession he is entitled to.

HTH

tim

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I am not denying that the LL should get it back and do whatever he wants, but do you guys think I could ask for extra time for moving as we were negotiating purchase till the very last? there is virtually nothing on market right now here, apart form unafordable mansions or houses unfit for human habitation

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I am not denying that the LL should get it back and do whatever he wants, but do you guys think I could ask for extra time for moving as we were negotiating purchase till the very last? there is virtually nothing on market right now here, apart form unafordable mansions or houses unfit for human habitation

If a valid s21 has been served there is NOTHING that you can do and the LL will gain an eviction order from the court no matter how much you would like there to be extenuating circumstances. Stop hoping and get a move on finding somewhere else.

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I am not denying that the LL should get it back and do whatever he wants, but do you guys think I could ask for extra time for moving as we were negotiating purchase till the very last? there is virtually nothing on market right now here, apart form unafordable mansions or houses unfit for human habitation

Of course the court will allow you moving time. They don't make a posession order for tomorrow it wil be a few weeks away.

But the time period will be based upon however long it takes a normal person to move, it WON'T be extended because of the previous actions of the LL or the fussiness of the tenant.

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Of course the court will allow you moving time. They don't make a posession order for tomorrow it wil be a few weeks away.

But the time period will be based upon however long it takes a normal person to move, it WON'T be extended because of the previous actions of the LL or the fussiness of the tenant.

I've just been served with a S21, as my tenancy expires in two months. I haven't decided whether to stay or not yet.

Out of interest. Anyone know how long it can take to process a warrant for eviction. Have heard that even though fast tracked it can take six weeks due to court delays.

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I am not denying that the LL should get it back and do whatever he wants, but do you guys think I could ask for extra time for moving as we were negotiating purchase till the very last? there is virtually nothing on market right now here, apart form unafordable mansions or houses unfit for human habitation

You are running out of time fast.

It depends on what you feel about your LL but there is one unscrupulous course of action left that will buy you some time. Agree his purchase price. Go through the motions but let it drag. He wont kick you out whilst in the middle of a purchase and the s21 notice will expire legitimately with you still there which changes things.

It will likely get ugly though when he realises that you arent going to have a survey done but that could be some time away whilst you stall with excuses of dealing with banks and proving pay/bonuses etc etc.

It only buys you time though, the result will be the same. Get off your backside and find somewhere else before you end up in the street.

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You are running out of time fast.

It depends on what you feel about your LL but there is one unscrupulous course of action left that will buy you some time. Agree his purchase price. Go through the motions but let it drag. He wont kick you out whilst in the middle of a purchase and the s21 notice will expire legitimately with you still there which changes things.

It will likely get ugly though when he realises that you arent going to have a survey done but that could be some time away whilst you stall with excuses of dealing with banks and proving pay/bonuses etc etc.

It only buys you time though, the result will be the same. Get off your backside and find somewhere else before you end up in the street.

Hi

thanks for coming up with an idea to wind up the evil LL :)

what cost would I have to bear then? will it really invalidate the s21 notice? I am already well past its expiry

Zac

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I've just been served with a S21, as my tenancy expires in two months. I haven't decided whether to stay or not yet.

Out of interest. Anyone know how long it can take to process a warrant for eviction. Have heard that even though fast tracked it can take six weeks due to court delays.

it will be more likely 4-6 weeks, then if you dont move out another 2 for LL to arrange eviction through bailiffs , and only if the LL acts quickly. Call the local county court pretending you are the landlord and have such a tenant as yourself :) they will tell you the exact times

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Hi

thanks for coming up with an idea to wind up the evil LL :)

what cost would I have to bear then? will it really invalidate the s21 notice? I am already well past its expiry

Zac

It wouldnt invalidate it no but it would probably stop the LL from going through court to have you evicted.

If you are already expired then that is his only remaining step unless you find somewhere else and leave voluntarily.

Has anything been said? You are going to continue paying the rent arent you?

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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