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Ecb Is Leading Ireland And The Eurozone To Disaster

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http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ecb-is-leading-ireland-and-the-eurozone-to-disaster-2634443.html

The verdict of the sovereign credit markets on all of this is clear and unsurprising. They will not lend a cent to Greece, Ireland or Portugal for the foreseeable future and do not believe that fiscal tightening alone will do the trick. As a consequence, there is no visible exit strategy for these countries.

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It is being assumed that the financial situation can be resolved solely through a further tightening of budgetary policy. This in turn assumes that there is no risk of sovereign default and that all debts can be paid, which implies that the markets have got it wrong.

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It is not politically viable to tell people that further large tax increases are coming, along with more big cuts in expenditure and no bank credit, with no prospect of economic recovery and no end in sight. The 'rescue' package cannot be sold as a kind of economic black hole from which there is no escape.

....................................

But unless the European banking crisis is acknowledged and dealt with soon, we are witnessing a slow-motion train-wreck that will end badly for Ireland, for several other eurozone members and ultimately for the entire European project.

Very good article, as we all know the Irish don’t like being pushed around. They are realising the utter futility of the current ECB / Eurozone policies.

Something has to be done as political instability in the countries will probably lead to popular demands to screw the creditors and default. They are sovereign countries not slaves.

Unless the ECB / EU are prepared to send in the tanks and take control, the Irish, Greeks etc actually have the power. They should simply refuse to pay another cent until a policy with some light at the end of the tunnel is devised.

The current situation with the creditors refusing to take responsibility for their terrible lending decisions is simply unacceptable. Something is going to have to give.

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http://www.independe...er-2634443.html

Very good article, as we all know the Irish don't like being pushed around. They are realising the utter futility of the current ECB / Eurozone policies.

Something has to be done as political instability in the countries will probably lead to popular demands to screw the creditors and default. They are sovereign countries not slaves.

Unless the ECB / EU are prepared to send in the tanks and take control, the Irish, Greeks etc actually have the power. They should simply refuse to pay another cent until a policy with some light at the end of the tunnel is devised.

The current situation with the creditors refusing to take responsibility for their terrible lending decisions is simply unacceptable. Something is going to have to give.

tanks?

Sounds like making Ireland a debtors prison.

Of course, the creditors should eat their own cooking.

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tanks?

Sounds like making Ireland a debtors prison.

Of course, the creditors should eat their own cooking.

Yes tanks, no one can force the Irish, Greeks etc to pay these ridiculous debts unless they are prepared to use force.

If I was the Irish, Greek, Portugese PM etc I would phone up the ECB, Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron etc and tell them all to get stuffed. Probably phone the financial press as well to turn up the pressure.

The government are meant to represent their citizens and they are frankly doing a crap job of it. Why would they agree to these ridiculous bailouts? Who is being bailed out exactly?

The creditors have equal responsibility for the debt, unless a plan was formulated that involved putting citizens back to work, economic growth and some kind of reduction of the debt you may as well not bother. Default is the better choice than being slowly driven in to the ground, at least you have a ray of hope once the debt is gone.

As the saying goes If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 billion, that's the bank's problem. Very much applies here I think.

Edited by mattyfc

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Yes tanks, no one can force the Irish, Greeks etc to pay these ridiculous debts unless they are prepared to use force.

If I was the Irish, Greek, Portugese PM etc I would phone up the ECB, Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron etc and tell them all to get stuffed. Probably phone the financial press as well to turn up the pressure.

The government are meant to represent their citizens and they are frankly doing a crap job of it. Why would they agree to these ridiculous bailouts? Who is being bailed out exactly?

The creditors have equal responsibility for the debt, unless a plan was formulated that involved putting citizens back to work, economic growth and some kind of reduction of the debt you may as well not bother. Default is the better choice than being slowly driven in to the ground, at least you have a ray of hope once the debt is gone.

As the saying goes If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 billion, that's the bank's problem. Very much applies here I think.

and there is the problem...the same one that caused the situation ( or allowed it to happen inthe first place)..Government....anyone would think these people have a VI in doing business with bankers for their pensions or futures after their life in Politics.

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Next someone will be suggesting you can't solve a debt crisis with more debt.

Ireland, Greece etc... only have one option and that is to default. They appear to be heading towards debt spiral and there is no hope once they take that path.

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They just need more debt, it's worked for Japan during the last 20 years or so, what's the problem?

Just kick the can down the road for a few years and try to think of something to do then ... well whoever is in charge then will need to think of something.

Ah' the policy a British Chancellor once described as 'an end to boom and bust' excellent. In other news Japan goes bust but blames the tsunami not 20 years of bad policy.

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Yes tanks, no one can force the Irish, Greeks etc to pay these ridiculous debts unless they are prepared to use force.

If I was the Irish, Greek, Portugese PM etc I would phone up the ECB, Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron etc and tell them all to get stuffed. Probably phone the financial press as well to turn up the pressure.

And then watch them invoking anti-terrorist legislation to confiscate all Irish assets abroad, just like Iceland in 2008.

And then watch all multinationals exiting Ireland pronto as no one wants to be labeled as "supporting terrorism".

I think that's the scenario Irish want to avoid, that's why they haven't defaulted yet.

Iceland could afford it because [a] they are not in the EU don't have any sizeable multinationals presence

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Iceland actually lowered rates recently because of low inflation.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-12-08/iceland-lowers-rates-as-economy-starts-stabilizing.html

Oh, yes, they dont have the euro straightjacket. The SHTF, krona fell accordingly, bad debt wiped, krona stabilises. I guess capitalism works afterall.

Amazingly some in Iceland still want to sell their country down the river to the EU-euro. As if being exploited by banksters insnt enough, they want to be exploited by NWO facist bildeburger EU ONE-WORLD-SLAVERY-GOVERNMENT scum too.

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....... we all know the Irish don’t like being pushed around.

You could have fooled me!

Surely they can now see that default is their only choice and start a campaign of civil or uncivil disobedience?

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You could have fooled me!

Surely they can now see that default is their only choice and start a campaign of civil or uncivil disobedience?

Default was the only option since before the election. Despite having an option to vote for default in the shape of Sinn Fein, the Irish voted to pay it all back. Those of us on HPC tried to push the Irish around and encourage them to default, but the Irish were having none of it.

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The author of this article is missing the point. He is bleating on about Ireland not being able to tap the bond markets for some cheap money at rates of the past when the world thought Germany would always bail out, so that Ireland can live beyond it's means again and spend more of their childrens taxes. Those days are gone Ireland, Greece, Portugal will never be able to borrow on the markets at bund rate + less than a percent, the future is 10% rates for them all, if at all.

They can bleat on about the EU saying one thing and the ECB doing something different, well welcome to the real world where Germany runs the fiscal policy of the eurozone via the ECB and Germany and the ECB want the periphery countries to live within their means and only spend what they collect in taxes.

The plan is working wonderfully well to date. First off force the PIG to become dependent on short term ECB money, then threaten to pull the money unless German and ECB officials are in control of the PIG country finance departments - Done. Then bring in legislation that from 2013 onwards Germany will not be liable for any PIG debt so future interest rates will be high for PIG countries - in progress. Then stop any more loans to the PIGS so they have to live within their means. Job done, the risk of the PIGS destroying the Euro in the future has gone away because they can only spend what they raise.

People say they should default and if they did all Germany would do is use the EFSF or the ESM to recapitalise the German, French and Spanish banks and stop the money going to the PIG govt's and because the PIG govts have just defaulted on Russian, US, Chinese, Japanese, etc banks they they would still not be able to get any money raised on the debt markets. So they would instantly go to having to live within their means, which is what Germany and the ECB wants all along.

Heads Germany wins, tails Germany wins.

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Yes tanks, no one can force the Irish, Greeks etc to pay these ridiculous debts unless they are prepared to use force.

If I was the Irish, Greek, Portugese PM etc I would phone up the ECB, Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron etc and tell them all to get stuffed. Probably phone the financial press as well to turn up the pressure.

The government are meant to represent their citizens and they are frankly doing a crap job of it. Why would they agree to these ridiculous bailouts? Who is being bailed out exactly?

The creditors have equal responsibility for the debt, unless a plan was formulated that involved putting citizens back to work, economic growth and some kind of reduction of the debt you may as well not bother. Default is the better choice than being slowly driven in to the ground, at least you have a ray of hope once the debt is gone.

As the saying goes If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 billion, that's the bank's problem. Very much applies here I think.

German banks. Read an artical the other day, the German banks have been lending money to certain countries who then buy BMW's etc... Sounds familar? Think China / USA...

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Iceland actually lowered rates recently because of low inflation.

http://www.businessw...tabilizing.html

Oh, yes, they dont have the euro straightjacket. The SHTF, krona fell accordingly, bad debt wiped, krona stabilises. I guess capitalism works afterall.

Amazingly some in Iceland still want to sell their country down the river to the EU-euro. As if being exploited by banksters insnt enough, they want to be exploited by NWO facist bildeburger EU ONE-WORLD-SLAVERY-GOVERNMENT scum too.

What Euro straightjacket?

The one that kind of means that countries have to only borrow what they can afford to repay and so can't deceive their populations, because they can't default by stealth and inflate the debt away shafting the creditors?

Very good thing IMO.

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What Euro straightjacket?

The one that kind of means that countries have to only borrow what they can afford to repay and so can't deceive their populations, because they can't default by stealth and inflate the debt away shafting the creditors?

Very good thing IMO.

Only borrow what they can afford to repay? Greece can repay it's debts? Looks like Germany, France will probably get landed with the bill. Would this have happened with the Drachma, not likely the interest rate charged to Greece would have prevented the debt build up in the first place.

Being allowed to borrow at "German" levels of interest caused their debt crisis. That and there creditors assuming default was impossible regardless of Greece's level of debt.

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Only borrow what they can afford to repay? Greece can repay it's debts? Looks like Germany, France will probably get landed with the bill. Would this have happened with the Drachma, not likely the interest rate charged to Greece would have prevented the debt build up in the first place.

Being allowed to borrow at "German" levels of interest caused their debt crisis. That and there creditors assuming default was impossible regardless of Greece's level of debt.

No, it can't repay its debts and that's the point.

If it wasn't in the single currency it could simply default on those debts by way of inflation. That's what the UK has planned.

There's no need to "bail out" Greece. It has land, state assets, islands etc. it could sell to raise funds to pay back the structual and other debts which came about as a result of profligacy, for example.

The only people who should lose are the Greek people.

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No, it can't repay its debts and that's the point.

If it wasn't in the single currency it could simply default on those debts by way of inflation. That's what the UK has planned.

There's no need to "bail out" Greece. It has land, state assets, islands etc. it could sell to raise funds to pay back the structual and other debts which came about as a result of profligacy, for example.

The only people who should lose are the Greek people.

Greece can easily default on its debt, the fact that it is in the € is irrelevant. The only reason they did not already is that Greek banks and pension funds hold €60bn of the debt. They would restructure immediately if this was not the case.

The profligacy was the result of a corrupt system of government, the EU letting Greece in the Eurozone in the first place and the stupidity of German, French etc banks who lent €325bn to a country which was never in a position to repay it.

None of this is the responsibility of Greeks ordinary citizens so why should they pay for it? Punish the bankers, the Greek government and the EU who allowed this to happen.

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Greece can easily default on its debt, the fact that it is in the € is irrelevant. The only reason they did not already is that Greek banks and pension funds hold €60bn of the debt. They would restructure immediately if this was not the case.

The profligacy was the result of a corrupt system of government, the EU letting Greece in the Eurozone in the first place and the stupidity of German, French etc banks who lent €325bn to a country which was never in a position to repay it.

None of this is the responsibility of Greeks ordinary citizens so why should they pay for it? Punish the bankers, the Greek government and the EU who allowed this to happen.

That's an interesting point. Why should the masses pay to keep the elite/banking cartels in business? Well, they shouldn't have to. They should just be allowed to fail. There should not have been a debt transfer from private to sovereign. But that's a slow motion car crash which is an entirely separate issue from the Euro.

As far as government overspending, undertaxing, undercollecting is concerned - all state - then yes, the Greek people are responsible for that, because while I can see that you could/should be able to separate private debts from governments (the point above) the Greek people elected their socialist style government and lived the life, time to pay the piper. Greece didn't have to borrow/overspend to this degree. That's what Governments do when they can get away with it. The EUR effectively presents this as an issue in stark and obvious terms whereas the UK can obfuscate and inflate.

Doesn't seem fair to the so called ordinary hard working majority (who don't benefit from the inflation in the UK either), but they elect those governments. So if they needed to sell of Cyprus, Crete, Corfu etc (geography was never my strong point) I don't suppose all the people there would be happy about being forcibly repatriated to the mainland while China buys up the islands/Greek state or whatever. But this kind of event needs to happen to stop Governments doing what Governments do: spending money they don't have because there are actually consequences.

Or, just default. Consequences there too.

Everyone's looking for the option which carries no consequences.

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The author of this article is missing the point. He is bleating on about Ireland not being able to tap the bond markets for some cheap money at rates of the past when the world thought Germany would always bail out, so that Ireland can live beyond it's means again and spend more of their childrens taxes. Those days are gone Ireland, Greece, Portugal will never be able to borrow on the markets at bund rate + less than a percent, the future is 10% rates for them all, if at all.

They can bleat on about the EU saying one thing and the ECB doing something different, well welcome to the real world where Germany runs the fiscal policy of the eurozone via the ECB and Germany and the ECB want the periphery countries to live within their means and only spend what they collect in taxes.

The plan is working wonderfully well to date. First off force the PIG to become dependent on short term ECB money, then threaten to pull the money unless German and ECB officials are in control of the PIG country finance departments - Done. Then bring in legislation that from 2013 onwards Germany will not be liable for any PIG debt so future interest rates will be high for PIG countries - in progress. Then stop any more loans to the PIGS so they have to live within their means. Job done, the risk of the PIGS destroying the Euro in the future has gone away because they can only spend what they raise.

People say they should default and if they did all Germany would do is use the EFSF or the ESM to recapitalise the German, French and Spanish banks and stop the money going to the PIG govt's and because the PIG govts have just defaulted on Russian, US, Chinese, Japanese, etc banks they they would still not be able to get any money raised on the debt markets. So they would instantly go to having to live within their means, which is what Germany and the ECB wants all along.

Heads Germany wins, tails Germany wins.

Except..........Germany only changed to this policy after their banks screwed up by exporting their taxpayers savings rather than spending them at home.

If Germany wins whichever way the coin flips then clearly it is in the interests of all the Piggies to default and exiting the Euro. They would then at least have some semblance of democracy and self-determination together with a devalued currency(ies) irrespective of where their financing comes from in future.

'Course, it would be even simpler for Merkin to take the hit, leave the Euro herself and re-instate the DM. She can't hide behind the Piggy Human Shield forever and de facto annexation has been proved to end in tears, usually hers.

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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