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anonguest

Parking Tickets And Debt

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Mods - please leave this here at least a little bit as it does have, albeit indirectly, some relevance to wider economic issues - before moving to off-topic.

*********************

QUESTION:

If a 'debtor' is MADE bankrupt (as opposed to the debtor voluntarily applying for bankruptcy) in respect one particular debt owed to one particular creditor.... does that bankruptcy consequently 'eliminate' any other debts said debtor may have with other separate creditors?

My understanding is that 'private' creditors rarely seek to impose bankruptcy on debtors - as the moment it is granted they effectively lose any future claim they could make against outstanding debts the debtor has with them?

The only 'people' who usually, as a matter of practice, seek to impose bankruptcy are various 'state' bodies (e.g Inland Revenue, etc).

WHY ASK.......

Had an interesting education recently, via a 'skilled practitioner' ( :lol: ), of long-term non-payment of parking tickets. I refer to fixed penalty notices issued by local authorities (the task frequently contracted out to private companies) in respect of NON-CRIMINAL road traffic offences (e.g overstaying on a meter, parking on yellow lines, in residents bays, etc).

Turns out, so I learn, that these offences were decriminalised many moons ago and the fines are, in effect, private debts between you the motorist and the local authority.

IF, and I say IF, one were to deliberately and wilfully NOT pay the fine (and manage to ignore/evade all the toothless bailiffs threats over the course of the subsequent 1 year - which is how long the resulting court enforcement orders last for) then all that remains is an outstanding debt. The council could, if they so choose, at the very end of the day go throught the motions to file for bankruptcy of the offender.

THUS.... IF one has lots of unrelated unsecured debts elsewhere, and wishes to wash their hands of them, then rather than hoping the banks will push for your bankruptcy (which is unlikely) you could rely on the vindictive bl**dy mindedness of the local authority to do it for you!!

Once they make you bankrupt (in your absence) then all other debts 'die' too??? Sounds too good to be true?!

As a background explainer the 'case study' person in question is a modern single, socially/financially disenfranchised person (i.e has recently woken up to the fact that in the absence of marrying wealth or inheriting he will not be able to have a chance of buying his own home before the age of 45 - assuming status quo in respect of wages, house prices, general inflation, etc) - and thus has become increasingly 'beligerent' in his attitude to TPTB. He has NOT paid a parking ticket in over 5 years!!! .....and has paperwork to show it! Taking simple precautions he has never had his car taken away/repossesed (yet!).

BUT, he concedes, he has no idea what his credit rating is like and it could well, for all he knows, be littered with CCJs, etc.

Edited by anonguest

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Mods - please leave this here at least a little bit as it does have, albeit indirectly, some relavance to wider economic issues - before moving to off-topic.

*********************

QUESTION:

If a 'debtor' is MADE bankrupt (as opposed to the debtor voluntarily applying for bankruptcy) in respect one particular debt owed to one particular creditor.... does that bankruptcy consequently 'eliminate' any other debts said debtor may have with other separate creditors?

My understanding is that 'private' creditors rarely seek to impose bankruptcy on debtors - as the moment it is granted they effectively lose any future claim they could make against outstanding debts the debtor has with them?

The only 'people' who usually, as a matter of practice, seek to impose bankruptcy are various 'state' bodies (e.g Inland Revenue, etc).

WHY ASK.......

Had an interesting education recently, via a 'skilled practitioner' (LOL), of long-term non-payment of parking tickets. I refer to fixed penalty notices issued by local authorities (the task frequently contracted out to private companies) in respect of NON-CRIMINAL road traffic offences (e.g overstaying on a meter, parking on yellow lines, in residents bays, etc).

Turns out, so I learn, that these offences were decriminalised many moons ago and the fines are, in effect, private debts between you the motorist and the local authority.

IF, and I say IF, one were to deliberately and wilfully NOT pay the fine (and manage to ignore/evade all the toothless bailiffs threats over the course of the subsequent 1 year - which is how long the resulting court enforcement orders last for) the all that remains is an outstanding debt. The council could, if they so choose, at the very end of the day go throught the motions to file for bankruptcy of the offender.

THUS.... IF one has lots of unrelated unsecured debts elsewhere, and wishes to wash their hands of them, then rather than hoping the banks will push for your bankruptcy (which is unlikely) you could rely on the vindictive bl**dy mindedness of the local authority to do it for you!!

Once they make you bankrupt (in your absence) then all other debts 'die' too??? Sounds too good to be true?!

As a background explainer the 'case study' person in question is a modern single, socially/financially disenfranchised person (i.e has recently woken up to the fact that in the absence of marrying wealth or inheriting he will not be able to have a chance of buying his own home before the age of 45 - assuming status quo in respect of wages, house prices, general inflation, etc) - and thus has become increasingly 'beligerent' in his attitude to TPTB. He has NOT paid a parking ticket in over 5 years!!! .....and has paperwork to show it! Taking simple precautions he has never had his car taken away/repossesed (yet!).

BUT, he concedes, he has no idea what his credit rating is like and it could well, for all he knows, be littered with CCJs, etc.

Why not just beat the ticket with a thorough reading of the regs governing parking bay markings/signage? I beat one due to illegal signage and since the council did not alter the markings it is effectively a 'free parking' bay, to be used at will. It is a pain to make representations though, but if the bay is illegal, don't stand for it.

(I discovered later the signpost plate displaying the parking restrictions, which was set in the pavement up against a hedgerow, was annually destroyed by the council(!) during their hedge-trimming operation involving a tractor and an extension arm, which would reduce the hedge's height to just below that height of the signpost. As the tractor was being operated from the other side of the hedge, they could not see (or bother to check) that they were catching the top of the signpost in the blades, causing the information plate to become dislodged)

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions are what you want, google it. They are VERY specific.

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THUS.... IF one has lots of unrelated unsecured debts elsewhere, and wishes to wash their hands of them, then rather than hoping the banks will push for your bankruptcy (which is unlikely) you could rely on the vindictive bl**dy mindedness of the local authority to do it for you!!

If you really want to be made bankrupt then you can petition for it yourself. Probably more convenient than racking up unpaid parking tickets in the hope that the council will eventually petition for your bankruptcy :rolleyes: Costs a few hundred quid though.

Once they make you bankrupt (in your absence) then all other debts 'die' too??? Sounds too good to be true?!

Yes, bankruptcy effectively clears your debts - that's the whole point of it.

Obviously the judge has to be satisfied that you are actually financially unable to pay your debts before you are declared bankrupt and the official receiver can seize any assets you might have in order to pay your creditors.

In practice, most bankrupts don't have substantial assets (or they have made sure to conceal them) and they get to keep all their stuff. If you own anything with more than a couple of grand's worth of equity in it, it could be seized though.

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Mods - please leave this here at least a little bit as it does have, albeit indirectly, some relevance to wider economic issues - before moving to off-topic.

*********************

QUESTION:

If a 'debtor' is MADE bankrupt (as opposed to the debtor voluntarily applying for bankruptcy) in respect one particular debt owed to one particular creditor.... does that bankruptcy consequently 'eliminate' any other debts said debtor may have with other separate creditors?

Bankruptcy deals with all debts at that time.

Whether it's voluntary or not... all debt is included.

INcluding any debt that rears its head shortly after the event - BUT if you keep spending/or are a gambler they might make your bankrupcy last longer

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In N London particularly Camden Rd N7/NW1 and Green Lanes N4/N8. The police do rolling roadblocks whereby they have a plain white van with cameras with ANPR technology parked up and 50 to 100 metres further up the road there is about 20 police officers (proper met police not plastic community officers) and council officials waiting to pull in any vehicles flagged up.

If you have any outstanding parking tickets your car is held and you have any opportunity to go to atm or home to get funds to clear the tickets there and then.

Aussie friend of mine had 3 tickets outstanding (2 from Westminster and 1 Camden councils) at various stages of threats to go to court to baliff visits totalling £970. He had a black vw polo that he loved and also needed for his work approx value £1800/£1900 and had no money to clear the tickets so a very kind policeman provided him with a black bin liner to cart off his tools,cds etc.

So in the past it might have been possible to rack up unpaid fines and park your car 4 streets away from your home address and continue cruising around now there is a good chance you will get caught out.

Whether the tactics described above are a good way of using police resources is maybe another debate.

Another debate to be had is the fairness of fines ie stay 5mins over on meter that you had previously stuffed full of change not get the notice then be on holiday when notice to owner is posted out and the next thing you know a couple of hundred pounds is owed with no flexibility from the court or council.

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In N London particularly Camden Rd N7/NW1 and Green Lanes N4/N8. The police do rolling roadblocks whereby they have a plain white van with cameras with ANPR technology parked up and 50 to 100 metres further up the road there is about 20 police officers (proper met police not plastic community officers) and council officials waiting to pull in any vehicles flagged up.

If you have any outstanding parking tickets your car is held and you have any opportunity to go to atm or home to get funds to clear the tickets there and then.

Aussie friend of mine had 3 tickets outstanding (2 from Westminster and 1 Camden councils) at various stages of threats to go to court to baliff visits totalling £970. He had a black vw polo that he loved and also needed for his work approx value £1800/£1900 and had no money to clear the tickets so a very kind policeman provided him with a black bin liner to cart off his tools,cds etc.

So in the past it might have been possible to rack up unpaid fines and park your car 4 streets away from your home address and continue cruising around now there is a good chance you will get caught out.

Whether the tactics described above are a good way of using police resources is maybe another debate.

Another debate to be had is the fairness of fines ie stay 5mins over on meter that you had previously stuffed full of change not get the notice then be on holiday when notice to owner is posted out and the next thing you know a couple of hundred pounds is owed with no flexibility from the court or council.

:lol::lol:

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Why not just beat the ticket with a thorough reading of the regs governing parking bay markings/signage?

I tried that and failed at the adjudicator stage. He basically just told me to do one and that if 'it looks like a double yellow line' then it is one and the laws apply!

It was a punt but in all honesty if I ever get another I'll just take the council's bribe and pay the half price discount. The amount of time you spend dealing with it is just not worth it.

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In N London particularly Camden Rd N7/NW1 and Green Lanes N4/N8. The police do rolling roadblocks whereby they have a plain white van with cameras with ANPR technology parked up and 50 to 100 metres further up the road there is about 20 police officers (proper met police not plastic community officers) and council officials waiting to pull in any vehicles flagged up.

If you have any outstanding parking tickets your car is held and you have any opportunity to go to atm or home to get funds to clear the tickets there and then.

Aussie friend of mine had 3 tickets outstanding (2 from Westminster and 1 Camden councils) at various stages of threats to go to court to baliff visits totalling £970. He had a black vw polo that he loved and also needed for his work approx value £1800/£1900 and had no money to clear the tickets so a very kind policeman provided him with a black bin liner to cart off his tools,cds etc.

So in the past it might have been possible to rack up unpaid fines and park your car 4 streets away from your home address and continue cruising around now there is a good chance you will get caught out.

Whether the tactics described above are a good way of using police resources is maybe another debate.

Another debate to be had is the fairness of fines ie stay 5mins over on meter that you had previously stuffed full of change not get the notice then be on holiday when notice to owner is posted out and the next thing you know a couple of hundred pounds is owed with no flexibility from the court or council.

BUT are you sure these offences were for non-criminal offences such as overstaing on a meter?? and not something like driving in a bus-lane or non-payment of congestion charge (which IS a criminal offence).

Technically, just like a minor car accident (no injuries) between two motorists when the police wont get involved, the police wouldnt have jurisdiction to force people to pay, or impound the cars - as the 'offences' I refer to are most certainly outside their responsibilities and were de-criminalised in the 1990's.

I say this as, some time ago when Red Ken was Londons great and glorious leader, I got pulled over at random in NW London for a roadside pollution montoring inspection (checking my exhaust). A policeman pulled me over and I duly complied. I immediaetly switched off the engine, got out, and walked to words the copper who (puzzlingly) was by now walking away back to the roadside. Simultaneoulsy notced THREE goons clamber over the rear of my car about to fit various pipe/equipment to my car. Query the copper who explains his sole involvement was to merely pull over cars that the goons decided needed pulling over, as they didnt have the authority. Then queried and confirmed if I was free to drive off, he said yes, but "It's all in agood cause for the environment...." or words to that effect, appealing to my social consience.

By this point said goons were calling over to me to come and switch on my engine. I duly did and sped off without giving them opportunity to perform their great financially sensible experiment. :lol::lol::lol:

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In N London particularly Camden Rd N7/NW1 and Green Lanes N4/N8. The police do rolling roadblocks whereby they have a plain white van with cameras with ANPR technology parked up and 50 to 100 metres further up the road there is about 20 police officers (proper met police not plastic community officers) and council officials waiting to pull in any vehicles flagged up.

If you have any outstanding parking tickets your car is held and you have any opportunity to go to atm or home to get funds to clear the tickets there and then.

Aussie friend of mine had 3 tickets outstanding (2 from Westminster and 1 Camden councils) at various stages of threats to go to court to baliff visits totalling £970. He had a black vw polo that he loved and also needed for his work approx value £1800/£1900 and had no money to clear the tickets so a very kind policeman provided him with a black bin liner to cart off his tools,cds etc.

So in the past it might have been possible to rack up unpaid fines and park your car 4 streets away from your home address and continue cruising around now there is a good chance you will get caught out.

Whether the tactics described above are a good way of using police resources is maybe another debate.

Another debate to be had is the fairness of fines ie stay 5mins over on meter that you had previously stuffed full of change not get the notice then be on holiday when notice to owner is posted out and the next thing you know a couple of hundred pounds is owed with no flexibility from the court or council.

I will add that if, as you say, technology is catching up and making it harder to get away with non-payment and hang on to your car, said 'case study' person likely wont care as his car is worth not more than £250 IMO. My guess is he would shrug his shoulders, let them have the car, buy a new one and put that down to another 'expense' of motoring - having got good value out of it by having parked just about anywhere without paying into meters and not paying THOUSANDS in parking fines.

Edited by anonguest

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If you really want to be made bankrupt then you can petition for it yourself. Probably more convenient than racking up unpaid parking tickets in the hope that the council will eventually petition for your bankruptcy :rolleyes: Costs a few hundred quid though.

Yes, bankruptcy effectively clears your debts - that's the whole point of it.

Obviously the judge has to be satisfied that you are actually financially unable to pay your debts before you are declared bankrupt and the official receiver can seize any assets you might have in order to pay your creditors.

In practice, most bankrupts don't have substantial assets (or they have made sure to conceal them) and they get to keep all their stuff. If you own anything with more than a couple of grand's worth of equity in it, it could be seized though.

Interesting. I wasnt sure what I was being told was correct. But it would appear the chap in question is right. So his strategy appears to be that he would actually welcome a public sector body (with no care for taxpayers money or anyone else affected by their actions), such as a local council, making him bankrupt in his absence. ALL his other 'private' unsecured debts (i.e banks) get legally wiped out too at the same time - presumably to the annoyance of debt collection companies I would guess. Best of all he doesnt have to pay a penny for the privilege! :D

Of course, despite all their bluster, councils are so incompetent I wonder if they have ever made anyone bankrupt for non-payment of parking tickets? I say this, as having seen his proud letter collection, after a year or so all he gets is a 'grovelling' letter from various councils all saying, in so many words, how they are very disappointed he has not 'honoured his debt' to the council in respect of FPN No. 1234556, etc. etc. and appeal to his sense of social fairness to settle up which is where the paper trail then ends. :lol:

Edited by anonguest

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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