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Why Are We Having A Referendum On Av ?

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I am mildly in favour of AV but not to the point where I think that it anywhere near the most important question that we could pose in a referendum.

I have submitted three questions that I think are more important to protect our sovereignty, democracy and desire for a secular, non-racial society.

I wonder how members feel about these three questions as well as other possible referendum questions that they feel are more important to our society than AV.

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AV is a rubbish system and will cost loads to administer. One vote per person IMHO, then if they want to do proportional representation with those votes, then maybe.

But the whole thing is ********. Why did we not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty Gordon brown signed us up for? The eu as a whole, good idea but it's become far to beaurocratic and hasn't passed a single financial audit for 20yrs iirc, so i getting to the stage where it could be a good idea to pull out, but then we lose our voice. However if the eu made a europe wide burka ban, I'm sure it would get a lot more public support.

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AV is a rubbish system and will cost loads to administer. One vote per person IMHO, then if they want to do proportional representation with those votes, then maybe.

But the whole thing is ********. Why did we not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty Gordon brown signed us up for? The eu as a whole, good idea but it's become far to beaurocratic and hasn't passed a single financial audit for 20yrs iirc, so i getting to the stage where it could be a good idea to pull out, but then we lose our voice. However if the eu made a europe wide burka ban, I'm sure it would get a lot more public support.

I am not sure that we want a voice in Europe. A free trade agreement might be as far as we need to go.

I tried to pose the question about religious items more broadly than just the "burka problem". If we want a true sectarian, non racial society, my opinion is that we need to ban all religious items and not just the burka.

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Democracy is an illusion used to indoctrinate the masses.

If the people's ability to vote candidates in and out of office has no meaningful influence on the decisions they make while in office, then democracy does not exist, because the will of the people has no influence on policy.

Historically our Government, have always fought against democracy. Very important that they appear to support the notion though.

AV = Pretending to give the people options.

It's all about the MONEY, honey.

Everything we are told is a lie. It's all about misdirection and control.

Edited by Dan1

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Democracy is an illusion used to indoctrinate the masses.

If the people's ability to vote candidates in and out of office has no meaningful influence on the decisions they make while in office, then democracy does not exist, because the will of the people has no influence on policy.

Historically our Government, have always fought against democracy. Very important that they appear to support the notion though.

AV = Pretending to give the people options.

It's all about the money honey.

My sentiments exactly.

The existing voting system, an AV voting system or no voting system at all - it really doesn't matter because the outcome will be the same. Your opinion matters not, they will do what they want regardless.

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Democracy is an illusion used to indoctrinate the masses.

If the people's ability to vote candidates in and out of office has no meaningful influence on the decisions they make while in office, then democracy does not exist, because the will of the people has no influence on policy.

Historically our Government, have always fought against democracy. Very important that they appear to support the notion though.

AV = Pretending to give the people options.

It's all about the MONEY, honey.

Everything we are told is a lie. It's all about misdirection and control.

Agreed.

Many decisions are too important to be left up to politicians from things like membership in the EU to the choice between traffic calming and trying to reduce emissions by allowing traffic to flow more freely.

More direct democracy and less representative democracy is the only solution. Those who crave political power are unlikely to give it up easily and grant people more democratic powers at a granular level.

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Only people that have had a job sometime in the past year should be able to vote.

P155 off, so I don't get to vote as I choose to stay at home and raise my young family while the wife is contributing over £20k a year in income tax and NI contributions alone. Go crawl under a rock.

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So am I seeing this AV thing correctly

You start with say a 5 horse race

after round one the person who came fourth could still win?

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I think you should get one vote per house you own.

+1,000

i dont see why you should get a vote when you arent properly contributing to the community via home ownership or philanthropic BTL

Edited by Tamara De Lempicka

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I am not sure that we want a voice in Europe. A free trade agreement might be as far as we need to go.

Quite possibly, but I'm not certain. Europe goes further than it should but something a bit more than a free trade agreement doesn't seem a bad idea. On the MPs point of view the number isn't really a problem (particularly if you want to get a decent level of local representation), the problem are the parties having too much power over individual MPs and therefore rendering them fairly pointless.

I tried to pose the question about religious items more broadly than just the "burka problem". If we want a true sectarian, non racial society, my opinion is that we need to ban all religious items and not just the burka.

I hate that idea - it boils down to the government dictating what you can and cannot wear. Religion shouldn't be treated specially, and that works both ways. I can display tokens of anything else, religion should be just the same (and it also shouldn't have extra laws to defend it - why "inciting religious hatred" over any other sort?)

Edit to add: The AV thing might ultimately be just as important as more obvious concerns, if it's a step towards a democratic country. In itself it's not obviously that much more democratic than FPTP, but getting any change in might be that important first step.

Edited by Riedquat

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Its a dilemma.

Yes to AV, will mean endless coalitions.

For me, that is preferable to the last 60 years of red vs blue.

But in the short term it would probably mean that the lefty parties, have an advantage over the Tories.

So, a YES vote, would be a vote to give Labour a helping hand, in the hope that further down the line, things would change.....

Fat Chance.

How about starting with the referendum on The Lisbon Treaty we were promised?

No? Didnt think so.

Best Result would be if No-one turned up at the polling stations.

Or did so, brandishing pitchforks, and flaming brands with no intention of voting.

mob.jpg

Edited by Dan1

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P155 off, so I don't get to vote as I choose to stay at home and raise my young family while the wife is contributing over £20k a year in income tax and NI contributions alone. Go crawl under a rock.

You could always work and get money to get child care tax credits, from there, you could send them to a nursery or au-pair. Thus giving someone else a job. Then you get the right to vote. ;)

£20k a year in tax, peanuts, we can only feed one council family.

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I like the idea that someone posted in another thread recently about having to rank the choices in the order that you'd least like them in power. It would certainly make it easier to fill it in without being disgusted with yourself about seeming to support anyone on the list.

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You could always work and get money to get child care tax credits, from there, you could send them to a nursery or au-pair. Thus giving someone else a job. Then you get the right to vote. ;)

£20k a year in tax, peanuts, we can only feed one council family.

If it came to that i'd probably just throw the towel in. It's not like voting actually gets us anywhere these days ;):P

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I am mildly in favour of AV but not to the point where I think that it anywhere near the most important question that we could pose in a referendum.

I have submitted three questions that I think are more important to protect our sovereignty, democracy and desire for a secular, non-racial society.

I wonder how members feel about these three questions as well as other possible referendum questions that they feel are more important to our society than AV.

The AV referendum is, in practice, necessary for there to be a majority coalition government in this country. (Irrespective of the result.) Without holding one there would be no curtailing of spending - admittedly rather insipid so far but better than nothing.

The three topics you suggest are not a requirement for this, so in the context of any HPC less important.

Boring I know, sorry for taking your question seriously. ;)

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Why do you think reducing the number of MPs is important in protecting democracy?

I believe that representative democracy (or tribalism to steal a term) is less democratic than direct democracy.

The larger the number of members in each tribe, the more difficult it becomes for democracy to become more direct and the easier it becomes for pernicious policy to hide behind the tribal mask.

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Because the political class have ******ed up royally and are shit scared of some demagogue coming along and getting all the votes by promising closed borders, muslims out etc etc

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Quite possibly, but I'm not certain. Europe goes further than it should but something a bit more than a free trade agreement doesn't seem a bad idea. On the MPs point of view the number isn't really a problem (particularly if you want to get a decent level of local representation), the problem are the parties having too much power over individual MPs and therefore rendering them fairly pointless.

I hate that idea - it boils down to the government dictating what you can and cannot wear. Religion shouldn't be treated specially, and that works both ways. I can display tokens of anything else, religion should be just the same (and it also shouldn't have extra laws to defend it - why "inciting religious hatred" over any other sort?)

Edit to add: The AV thing might ultimately be just as important as more obvious concerns, if it's a step towards a democratic country. In itself it's not obviously that much more democratic than FPTP, but getting any change in might be that important first step.

I completely accept that people seem to be in favour of leaving the EU and reducing the number of MPS (and Lords) and dislike the idea that the wearing of religious items should be restricted to the premises of places of worship.

Once the question is asked directly and I have voted, I am much happier to accept the result than I am in the current system where representatives presume to speak for the population on every single issue between elections just because the majority (be it FPTP, AV, PR etc) of people voted for them.

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Because the political class have ******ed up royally and are shit scared of some demagogue coming along and getting all the votes by promising closed borders, muslims out etc etc

Giving a people a direct voice and addressing their concerns before it is too late significantly reduces the probability that a demagogue will emerge.

The longer that politicians offer choices and pass laws materially different to the wishes of the people, the higher the risk of an extremist outcome.

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Giving a people a direct voice and addressing their concerns before it is too late significantly reduces the probability that a demagogue will emerge.

The longer that politicians offer choices and pass laws materially different to the wishes of the people, the higher the risk of an extremist outcome.

Of course. What you concentrate on your mind works to acquire for you.

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No to leaving the EU.

If our industries wish to export to EU countries, they have to play by EU rules. Our membership of the EU allows us to play a part in defining those rules. If we leave the EU, our industries will still have to follow EU rules, but will lose the ability to influence them.

The choice is EU membership, EU legislation by fax or economic suicide. I prefer the first option.

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  • 276 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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