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'lose Your Jobs Or Move To The Philippines (But You'll Get A Rice Allowance And 200 Month Wage)


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Perhaps - one in the hand is worth two in the bush, and all that. It doesn't mean un-backed promises are worthless though, especially as you don't have to physically store/secure a promise anywhere (just a small ledger somewhere).

It does however that unbacked promises aren't a form of trade, in the sme way that dreams of gold are not gold.

And what is the landlord getting in exchange for the beer? A promise.

If the person (say, Bob) making the promise is trustworthy, then others may accept his promise too, in lieu of items. For instance, if the bar man wanted some meat, and the butcher knew of Bob's good word too, he may accept Bob's promise in lieu of items from the bar man.

[You don't need a bank for this, nor does it need to be backed by the state, but that is the current mechanism - we trust the bank to manage the risk exposure, instead of us having to track/gauge it.]

A promise for what?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the item extended', but financial capital is the product of promises, not of real capital (ie. goods/items).

yes, it's an irrelevent dream, minus state backing.

When the real capital is gold coins, you don't need them most of the time, as financial capital is more liquid (ie. easier to trade as money). You may want to hold real capital if it looks like financial capital is becoming risky (ie. underlying promises of payment look shaky), but that is a personal choice. The point is both can and are traded (both directly indirectly).

In other words, financial capital's value is taken from the underlying items (say, gold coins), of which that the promises are in lieu of (say, promises for gold coins - credit).

So gold coins are capital.

Pretty simple, this.

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It does however that unbacked promises aren't a form of trade, in the sme way that dreams of gold are not gold.

We may have our wires crossed - when I said un-backed, I meant by the state.

Clearly, promises start out as a promise for an item. However, over time, the promises themselves are given value. This isn't a novel concept.

A promise for what?

Cash, gold, the cutting of his lawn - whatever the bar man has agreed to take as payment.

yes, it's an irrelevent dream, minus state backing.

I disagree.

There are already LETS (http://www.letslinkuk.net/) type systems. Mutual credit is a form of non-state backed credit, as arranged between individuals.

There is also the Ripple Project (http://ripple-project.org/faq.html), which builds networks of credit, based on trust between individuals, rather than using a centralised banking system.

As banking even started out without state backing, I fail to see how it is a pre-requisite.

So gold coins are capital.

Pretty simple, this.

Gold coins are capital - real capital.

Credit is capital (backed by the state or not) - financial capital.

They are both forms of capital.

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We may have our wires crossed - when I said un-backed, I meant by the state.

Clearly, promises start out as a promise for an item. However, over time, the promises themselves are given value. This isn't a novel concept.

Wires crossed it is!

Cash, gold, the cutting of his lawn - whatever the bar man has agreed to take as payment.

Cash and gold can be capital, cutting of lawns cannot be.

I disagree.

There are already LETS (http://www.letslinkuk.net/) type systems. Mutual credit is a form of non-state backed credit, as arranged between individuals.

There is also the Ripple Project (http://ripple-project.org/faq.html), which builds networks of credit, based on trust between individuals, rather than using a centralised banking system.

As banking even started out without state backing, I fail to see how it is a pre-requisite.

They rely on fiat money to work.

Gold coins are capital - real capital.

Credit is capital (backed by the state or not) - financial capital.

They are both forms of capital.

No, they aren't. Financial capital is the usual conjob word trick to make something that may or may not happen have the same status as an actual past event.

Capital has to already exist to be capital. It cannot be related to the future.

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Unfortunately for the people of the Phillipines this is not true. Rents are really expensive in Manilla. For any decent place you are talking min £300 a month. Utilities are also very expensive as is meat and branded goods. The only reason they get away with paying £200 a month is that the local labour force are generally subject to poverty wages and many households are overcrowded with many adults living together in order to afford the rent and bills.

To live a nice ex-pat life out there you would probably need min of £2000 net a month (unless you are living rent free.)

Nearly full agreement. About 1300GBP a month it is for decent life, but we have a house bought and paid for. Does cost a packet to upkeep though. Build quality sucks. Materials suck.

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Cash and gold can be capital, cutting of lawns cannot be.

Having his lawn cut is still worth something to the bar man, otherwise he wouldn't have offered it. I would agreed that it isn't real capital in the traditional sense, but I don't think that matters - if he accepts it as payment, who cares?

They rely on fiat money to work.

No, they don't. You can use whatever currency you like to extinguish a debt:

But Ripple "money" isn't as good as real money because not as many people accept it.

True. However, nothing prevents you from making agreements with your associates on the system to settle all Ripple debts in bank or government currency, say, at the end of every month. Some people who don't like inflation might want to settle in gold, or some other real commodity. Used in this way, Ripple is a payment system that avoids many of the costs inherent in other payment systems.

But, as more people use Ripple, and people begin to trust that the system is secure and consistent, Ripple money will start to become as useful as regular money, and there will be little need for most people to convert Ripple's personal debts into bank debts.

You said gold?

Gold is touted by many as a universal, stable standard of value. Ripple accounts can be just as easily denominated in gold as in dollars or euros, or hours or joules, for that matter. Ripple can perform automatic conversions to integrate any type of debt between two parties into its currency network.

No, they aren't. Financial capital is the usual conjob word trick to make something that may or may not happen have the same status as an actual past event.

Who said that they have the 'same status'? As I said above, one in the hand may be worth two in the bush. Those two in the bush may or may not materialise, but that is the nature of financial capital.

Financial capital can provide more liquidity, as a promise takes little effort to create (compared to, say, mining gold). More liquidity can improve the ease of transactions, improving trade and therefore our standard of living.

Capital has to already exist to be capital. It cannot be related to the future.

You seem to be getting caught up on requiring something physical, in order for it to be valid. I know this isn't a new position for yourself, but I do wonder why you get so hung up on it.

Yesterday, I downloaded an MP3 album, paid for with a digital payment. No goods moved, yet I know that some credit somewhere has shifted from one place to another and those ones and zeros are now giving me aural pleasure. Just because I can't hold 'an MP3' in the palm of my hand, it doesn't make it any less real.

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Having his lawn cut is still worth something to the bar man, otherwise he wouldn't have offered it. I would agreed that it isn't real capital in the traditional sense, but I don't think that matters - if he accepts it as payment, who cares?

It isn't capital.

No, they don't. You can use whatever currency you like to extinguish a debt:

They rely on fiat currency to work. Any disputes in them can still exit to fiat currency to be settled.

Who said that they have the 'same status'? As I said above, one in the hand may be worth two in the bush. Those two in the bush may or may not materialise, but that is the nature of financial capital.

It's a word game. Financial capital means "maybes" capital means stuff that really exists. If you want to play sophistry for cash, joun a bank.

Financial capital can provide more liquidity, as a promise takes little effort to create (compared to, say, mining gold). More liquidity can improve the ease of transactions, improving trade and therefore our standard of living.

Yes, promises aren't capital.

You seem to be getting caught up on requiring something physical, in order for it to be valid. I know this isn't a new position for yourself, but I do wonder why you get so hung up on it.

because you used the word "capital" and then preceeded to lump a lot of things which "aren't capital" in with it.

Yesterday, I downloaded an MP3 album, paid for with a digital payment. No goods moved, yet I know that some credit somewhere has shifted from one place to another and those ones and zeros are now giving me aural pleasure. Just because I can't hold 'an MP3' in the palm of my hand, it doesn't make it any less real.

Sigh.

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Workers at a mobile phone company have been told they can keep their jobs - if they move to the Philippines.

Staff at Orange customer service centre in Darlington, County Durham, say they were even given details of a 'rice allowance' they could claim as part of the 'transfer' package to work for IBM in Manila.

Orange, which last year merged with T-Mobile to create Everything Everywhere, recently confirmed that 40 staff would be affected by plans to outsource some work abroad.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1Jtsi31BB

Pretty funny i think, i'd been with orange once and never again, and i really believe this story.

Its probably a fantastic deal for most call centre workers who wont rise. You will live like a king as your convincing British accent will be worth many multiples of what a local accent will be worth, and you will probably be promoted into a management role over a team over local call centre workers

Edited by AteMoose
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Its probably a fantastic deal for most call centre workers who wont rise. You will live like a king as your convincing British accent will be worth many multiples of what a local accent will be worth, and you will probably be promoted into a management role over a team over local call centre workers

Really?

What you fail to understand is that the wages paid are based on their local norms, so the wages paid will be ~£200 per month. Lets say they are able to save 1/4 of their wages. At current rates after 10 years they would have a grand total of £6000, 25 years £15000.

This turns any individual who stays there for a significant amount of time into an economic outcast with respect to the UK. Individuals who can never ever return without commiting economic suicide.

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Really?

What you fail to understand is that the wages paid are based on their local norms, so the wages paid will be ~£200 per month. Lets say they are able to save 1/4 of their wages. At current rates after 10 years they would have a grand total of £6000, 25 years £15000.

This turns any individual who stays there for a significant amount of time into an economic outcast with respect to the UK. Individuals who can never ever return without commiting economic suicide.

I am geting sick of this thread. YOU CAN NOT LIVE ON 200GBP a month in Manila. GOT IT?

Don't give me the--'Pinoys do' rubbish. No they don't. They live in abject misery unless they have half a dozen in the household on this 'top' salary. A UK expat can not live the way they do. Anyway they won't let you. Can you live as a "bedspacer' on a third of your wage.That is floor space or filthy mattress with 5/6 others in tiny space. Try and hold a job down when your clothes and shoes take a walk.. You won't be buying any on that wage. The food you will be eating if you can hold it down will sooner or later put you in hospital. If you can afford the hospital bills. They will want to ee you bank account before they let you though the door.

Based on 17 years Philippines experience.

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It isn't capital.

Maybe in Injin land, but it's a fine definition for the rest of the world.

They rely on fiat currency to work. Any disputes in them can still exit to fiat currency to be settled.

No, they don't rely on fiat. Fiat money could not exist and Ripple would still function fine.

It's a word game. Financial capital means "maybes" capital means stuff that really exists. If you want to play sophistry for cash, joun a bank.

Your narrow definition of capital is not the one which matters.

Yes, promises aren't capital.

because you used the word "capital" and then preceeded to lump a lot of things which "aren't capital" in with it.

There are many different categories of capital, all of which are accepted terms. You disagreeing with this doesn't make any difference.

Edited by Traktion
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Maybe in Injin land, but it's a fine definition for the rest of the world.

injinland is reality. I understand you want to have concepts that contain things that in reality are opposites or not related but it won't work when applied.

No, they don't rely on fiat. Fiat money could not exist and Ripple would still function fine.

no, it wouldn't - it would still need the exit point that fiat money provides.

Your narrow definition of capital is not the one which matters.

Quite so - the applied concept "capital" is what matters.

There are many different categories of capital, all of which are accepted terms. You disagreeing with this doesn't make any difference.

And making up new words that don't apply to reality means sweet fanny adams.

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no, it wouldn't - it would still need the exit point that fiat money provides.

Yes it would. If fiat money did not exist, Ripple - a distributed mutual credit system - could still function. You can tack on a legal system, fiat money and whatever else you wish, but it is not needed.

I suggest you read the FAQ I linked above.

Quite so - the applied concept "capital" is what matters.

And making up new words that don't apply to reality means sweet fanny adams.

You are the one saying that a standard definition doesn't exist, not me.

Regardless, the point of my original message was that it is now easy to pay someone on the other side of the world. What you think is or isn't capital is not immaterial. People are using credit 24/7, all over the world, no matter how you define it.

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Yes it would. If fiat money did not exist, Ripple - a distributed mutual credit system - could still function. You can tack on a legal system, fiat money and whatever else you wish, but it is not needed.

I suggest you read the FAQ I linked above.

They need a fiat system behind it. i've outlined why all such non empirical systems do before.

You are the one saying that a standard definition doesn't exist, not me.

Nope. I am saying a stadard dfinition isn't found in reality.

Regardless, the point of my original message was that it is now easy to pay someone on the other side of the world. What you think is or isn't capital is not immaterial. People are using credit 24/7, all over the world, no matter how you define it.

Credit isn't capital.

That's all my point has been here. Not that folks aren't using whatever it is they are using, but only that it is not capital.

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[quote name='Injin' timestamp='1303243824' post='2964749'

And making up new words that don't apply to reality means sweet fanny adams.

Out of interest - exactly how do you apply reality to words ? Words really don't exist do they ? They are simply little squiggles on a bit of paper, or a screen, or a rock. And these are little squiggles that some person has decided means 'x'. In fact it may mean 'y'.

In fact it means whatever you want it to mean.You mentioned a 'word game' Everything is a word game. I just don't understand how you can fit this in with your ideas in general about 'reality' or what is 'real capital' or whatever.

Words mean whatever you want them to be. In fact - in reality - debates or chat really is a complete waste of time and pointless. :D

Still - I quite enjoy it.

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Capital is merely a means to attempt to store the value of current excess production to spend on future consumption.

It can take many forms depending on the view of the "storer" from education to fiat to shares to houses to gold.

It is unlikely that future consumption can be stored perfectly so there is no such thing as perfect capital. The best that we can hope for is a least imperfect form of capital.

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They need a fiat system behind it. i've outlined why all such non empirical systems do before.

Care to link it?

You can extinguish debts with anything - Bitcoins, gold or whatever you like. If debts aren't paid, the person who extended the credit goes unpaid.

Optionally, you could have a legal tender law, add legally binding contracts and so forth, but that isn't a prerequisite.

Nope. I am saying a stadard dfinition isn't found in reality.

Credit isn't capital.

Financial capital (in the form of credit) is a relatively standard definition, even if you disagree with it. It's a waste of forum space to be even debating it tbh.

That's all my point has been here. Not that folks aren't using whatever it is they are using, but only that it is not capital.

Ha! What next? Discussing how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin? ;)

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Care to link it?

You can extinguish debts with anything - Bitcoins, gold or whatever you like. If debts aren't paid, the person who extended the credit goes unpaid.

Optionally, you could have a legal tender law, add legally binding contracts and so forth, but that isn't a prerequisite.

It is, because with an unreal system, you need an authority to tell you what to do. With real world items, it's obvious to everyone over the age of 5 what is going on.

Financial capital (in the form of credit) is a relatively standard definition, even if you disagree with it. It's a waste of forum space to be even debating it tbh.

Sure is. Financial capital is an invalid concept.

Ha! What next? Discussing how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin? ;)

That's your job. I'm giving you exit points to reality from the conceptual loops, same as I always do.

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It is, because with an unreal system, you need an authority to tell you what to do. With real world items, it's obvious to everyone over the age of 5 what is going on.

With ripple (distributed, mutual credit), the only 'authority' there is, is a ledger of how much credit has been granted by whom. You can give as much or as little credit to anyone you like (whether they can use it is another matter).

I will concede that distributed, mutual credit isn't as simple as handing someone a gold coin, but then neither is using e-banking. However, ripple just models our current system, but with any entity able to behave like a bank, rather than just those institutions currently present.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but I expect technology like this will find its way through at some point. If/when it does, banks will have a lot more competition, if they will be needed at all.

Sure is. Financial capital is an invalid concept.

:lol:

That's your job. I'm giving you exit points to reality from the conceptual loops, same as I always do.

Fair enough. I think your exit points are too strict, but your application of them is consistent.

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