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'lose Your Jobs Or Move To The Philippines (But You'll Get A Rice Allowance And 200 Month Wage)


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I honestly tried to outsource my repetitive IT related tasks to several UK workers and no one was interested even though I would have paid £10 hour to work at home at any hours they wanted :rolleyes:

Where, how?

Sorry I honestly don't believe that. I'd of took something like that on to do in my spare time a few years ago, and I doubt very much I'd of been the only one.

I don't think you're telling the whole story with this one.

Edited by PopGun
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They can afford to work for £5 an hour mostly because they don't have to find £750 a month before they get a penny for themselves.

nowt to do with laziness, all to do with imposed costs by rentiers.

Unfortunately for the people of the Phillipines this is not true. Rents are really expensive in Manilla. For any decent place you are talking min £300 a month. Utilities are also very expensive as is meat and branded goods. The only reason they get away with paying £200 a month is that the local labour force are generally subject to poverty wages and many households are overcrowded with many adults living together in order to afford the rent and bills.

To live a nice ex-pat life out there you would probably need min of £2000 net a month (unless you are living rent free.)

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Unfortunately for the people of the Phillipines this is not true. Rents are really expensive in Manilla. For any decent place you are talking min £300 a month. Utilities are also very expensive as is meat and branded goods. The only reason they get away with paying £200 a month is that the local labour force are generally subject to poverty wages and many households are overcrowded with many adults living together in order to afford the rent and bills.

To live a nice ex-pat life out there you would probably need min of £2000 net a month (unless you are living rent free.)

£300 is less than £750.

Ty. :)

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Thankfully there are some intelligent people here who can connect the dots. The only reason we all have cheap iPods, LCD TVs etc is due to the global marketplace.

I honestly tried to outsource my repetitive IT related tasks to several UK workers and no one was interested even though I would have paid £10 hour to work at home at any hours they wanted :rolleyes:

Places like www.odesk.com, www.elance.com and Philippine specific outsourcing agencies gave me more than 10 graduate or PHD level candidates who I could pay directly via PayPal for £5 hour maximum. As a small business owner with work anyone with an internet connection can do it was a simple choice. Outsourcing jobs and being net importers of everything is a one way street I'm afraid and once people in the UK and USA realise it won't stop until everyone does work at the same Global wages then this process will only accelerate.

Hopefully some of the lazy work shy feckers who are second of third generation of people living solely off benefits will be forced to get the UK moving again in some form or forced / voluntary work but I feel the boat has already sailed and the rest of the World's people have already caught up with our alleged advantages and the UK and USA etc are yesterdays first World countries.

Do these 'repetitive IT tasks' require any investment in equipment? Even with cheap tech from abroad, £10/hr is not going to cut it if I have to spend a couple of £hundred up front first.

Was it a fixed-length contract, or just effectively piece work by the hour every now and again? How can I plan my finances if it is piece work with no guarantee of income a few months down the line?

Would it have been more than 16 hours a week, hence disqualifying the worker from JSA?

Assuming this is a single contractor working for their own Ltd. company (I may get the details wrong on this..), out of that £10, wouldn't they have to pay NI, Income Tax, etc.? Once you take that off you're getting close the NMW.

Basically, £10/hr is just not worth the effort unless you are really desperate.

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This was / is data entry tasks and article writing, posting blog content etc for a minimum of 6 months but probably much longer so I can concentrate on building up other areas of my business. All that's needed for this work is an internet connection and a computer which most people have already.

We can go around and around if people want but the fact is globalisation is not only making every town / city feel the same with the same awful retailers / malls selling what the global advertisers want us all to get into debt for but today's international students are tomorrows business / world leaders and these people are learning everything they need from our supposed World Leading universities whether in the UK or one of the international campuses we have set up for cash.

Like it or not here in the UK's and the West in general we are are only going to lose our standard of living whilst those working and driving tomorrows world will increase theirs and hopefully they won't be as cruel as we were when we had our empire.

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Do these 'repetitive IT tasks' require any investment in equipment? Even with cheap tech from abroad, £10/hr is not going to cut it if I have to spend a couple of £hundred up front first.

Was it a fixed-length contract, or just effectively piece work by the hour every now and again? How can I plan my finances if it is piece work with no guarantee of income a few months down the line?

Would it have been more than 16 hours a week, hence disqualifying the worker from JSA?

Assuming this is a single contractor working for their own Ltd. company (I may get the details wrong on this..), out of that £10, wouldn't they have to pay NI, Income Tax, etc.? Once you take that off you're getting close the NMW.

Basically, £10/hr is just not worth the effort unless you are really desperate.

You have just outlined a load of reasons why the UK isn't competitive. Do you think the counter productive benefits system*, red tape and regulation is helping the UK? Is it any wonder that jobs are being driven away?

Granted, I'll accept that capital equipment is needed, but an old PC is pretty cheap - many are probably old ones which we gave to charities, as they didn't have the latest bells/whistles. Skype is free (even for international calls), if you have the connection, which you need infrastructure to deliver (again, yet more capital investment). Either way, these boundaries are coming down, particularly with infrastructure which requires less centralised investment (mobile phones for data, rather than land lines, for instance).

As I went to Borneo recently, I got a great flavour of why we are where we are in the world, but also why we need to be careful not to throw it away (too much is getting in the way of letting people work). Borneo, literally had shacks for houses in the country. The roads were terrible and the general infrastructure was far behind the UK. Therefore, they can't compete in every area, but in the areas they can compete in, they will... and they will be grateful for the work. IT jobs and training were all over the bill boards, as were languages (English), for instance. The difference in poverty between those folk in the country and those in the city is pretty extreme though, but in time, I'm sure the wealth will spread out.

* It should always pay to work, whether doing 16, 6 or 26 hours work. It should always pay to work, full stop. Benefits should only be there to help top up incomes, not to replace them.

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This was / is data entry tasks and article writing, posting blog content etc for a minimum of 6 months but probably much longer so I can concentrate on building up other areas of my business. All that's needed for this work is an internet connection and a computer which most people have already.

We can go around and around if people want but the fact is globalisation is not only making every town / city feel the same with the same awful retailers / malls selling what the global advertisers want us all to get into debt for but today's international students are tomorrows business / world leaders and these people are learning everything they need from our supposed World Leading universities whether in the UK or one of the international campuses we have set up for cash.

Like it or not here in the UK's and the West in general we are are only going to lose our standard of living whilst those working and driving tomorrows world will increase theirs and hopefully they won't be as cruel as we were when we had our empire.

I was with you up until the last bit. How are they going to go beyond our standard of living? What are they doing which we cannot?

I'm not an expert in history, but the industrial revolution allowed us to leap ahead of the rest of the world, with communications (the press) helping spread the knowledge of what worked and what didn't (throughout the UK). Compared to other countries at the time, we were vastly ahead of them, which helped us form our empire. Which countries look likely to do this now? Indeed, is it even possible with global communications resulting in good ideas spanning the globe (hint: how would one country retain this advantage?).

Western and capitalist ideals have been communicated to the rest of the world, along with the technology. I can see both the theoretical reasons and the evidence for this causing the difference between rich and poor countries being reduced. I do not see a new empire in the making and I doubt we ever will - communications and liquidity will erode any yield before they get out of sight of the rest of the pack.

EDIT: added some clarity.

Edited by Traktion
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People are going to put borders up, then attack each other.

Maybe - history is on your side - but it would be a rather pointless exercise. Modern communications and easy capital movement will make putting up more borders a futile task. I'm sure many would like to resolve it with a good, old fashioned, war though but that is completely pointless. That's not to say it won't happen...

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Maybe - history is on your side - but it would be a rather pointless exercise. Modern communications and easy capital movement will make putting up more borders a futile task. I'm sure many would like to resolve it with a good, old fashioned, war though but that is completely pointless. That's not to say it won't happen...

By capital you mean fiat money?

In a world whee governments are run by those who want borders, how easy is that movement going to be?

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I take your point regarding Empires - I was ranting a little :P

However expanding on this I was specifically thinking about the Chinese as having travelled there the country is full of what locals call 'Little Emperors' which are basically only children boys (from single child policy) that have only ever got their own way. When you couple this with the fact that they used to have many Empires and were more advanced than us (money, farming etc) for many long periods of history I think the Chinese will not allow the West to rule the World ever again once they get into top spot.

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This was / is data entry tasks and article writing, posting blog content etc for a minimum of 6 months but probably much longer so I can concentrate on building up other areas of my business. All that's needed for this work is an internet connection and a computer which most people have already.

We can go around and around if people want but the fact is globalisation is not only making every town / city feel the same with the same awful retailers / malls selling what the global advertisers want us all to get into debt for but today's international students are tomorrows business / world leaders and these people are learning everything they need from our supposed World Leading universities whether in the UK or one of the international campuses we have set up for cash.

Like it or not here in the UK's and the West in general we are are only going to lose our standard of living whilst those working and driving tomorrows world will increase theirs and hopefully they won't be as cruel as we were when we had our empire.

Sorry, I was playing devil's advocate a bit. A lot of the stuff I listed is the 'red tape' that keeps getting mentioned for reasons why the UK is not competitive.

But without knowing any more details, writing articles is not just simple IT. If you can get someone who can write something relevant for £5/hr then I think the UK is pretty much ******ed. But maybe I'd wait a few months to see the actual quality of writing first - and I don't mean punctuation and spelling but actual content.

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But without knowing any more details, writing articles is not just simple IT. If you can get someone who can write something relevant for £5/hr then I think the UK is pretty much ******ed. But maybe I'd wait a few months to see the actual quality of writing first - and I don't mean punctuation and spelling but actual content.

The person doing this article writing has been doing this part time for several years already, is super keen, can program in several different languages and has a masters degree in computing science. Honestly I couldn't be happier with her professionalism and level of knowledge and I am paying her far more than she can get for similar hours anywhere in the Philippines and this works out at $3.34 per hour = £2.04 per hour NOT £5 hour - I used £5 as an example as that is the most I was prepared to pay in these markets.

As I mentioned before there are teams of excellent programmers that will work for £10 hour global rates and I have mates that are over in the Philippines for the likes of IBM training people in SAP and other higher level IT related jobs which means that their own jobs will go too. Graphic design via sites like http://www.crowdspring.com/ and anything else IT you can think of is and will be outsourced once global internet speeds and education level out which I think is at most 5 years away and then what is UK PLC really going to be left with in this truly global workplace?

Edited by GeordieAndy
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I was - financial capital is just formalised promises.

You mean promises are promises? Righto. In no way shape or form is that capital though!

You can trade in lumps of stuff (real capital) too, if you wish too.

EDIT: typo

Real stuff is all you can trade in.

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Sorry, I was playing devil's advocate a bit. A lot of the stuff I listed is the 'red tape' that keeps getting mentioned for reasons why the UK is not competitive.

But without knowing any more details, writing articles is not just simple IT. If you can get someone who can write something relevant for £5/hr then I think the UK is pretty much ******ed. But maybe I'd wait a few months to see the actual quality of writing first - and I don't mean punctuation and spelling but actual content.

I wouldn't think of it in black and white. It depends very much on the projects and the resources available. Some companies have a hard enough time managing an office full of people, never mind when they are spread around the world in different time zones. I would expect changes to be gradual.

However, the government borrowing on our behalf hasn't and won't fix the situation. Neither will individuals borrowing to maintain spending either. Something has to give. It looks like devaluing our currency through the printing press is the least painful way*, which is what has been chosen for us - at least our debts shrink relative to the size of our economy then. The burden which some Eurozone countries are feeling is something we have thankfully avoided.

* That's not to say I agree with all bank savers being bailed out, with more money than the guarantees. The same goes for bond holders. However, the Eurozone countries have done the same AND haven't allowed their currencies to devalue - that's even worse.

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You mean promises are promises? Righto. In no way shape or form is that capital though!

Bank credit is financial capital. Bank credit is formalised promises. Therefore, financial capital can be considered as formalised promises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_capital

Real stuff is all you can trade in.

Ok, I guess that promise by my mate to buy me a pint hasn't been traded then. Righto.

EDIT: clarity.

Edited by Traktion
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Bank credit is financial capital. Bank credit is formalised promises. Therefore, financial capital can be considered as formalised promises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_capital

Bank credit is financial capital only when a governmnet stands behind it, tanks at the ready. Here we are talking about a situation where they won't do that for people outside the borders.

Ok, I guess that promise by my mate to buy me a pint hasn't been traded then. Righto.

EDIT: clarity.

No, it hasn't. You have had a thought. Well done.

Edited by Injin
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Bank credit is financial capital only when a governmnet stands behind it, tanks at the ready. Here we are talking about a situation where they won't do that for people outside the borders.

Rubbish. You don't need the threat of force in order to trade promises. There can be (and is) a free market for trading promises, just as easily as one for objects.

No, it hasn't. You have had a thought. Well done.

You're talking nonsense now. A slate in a pub is a list of promises. An agreement to owe someone a favour is a trade of promises. Sure, they may break an agreement (and once bitten...), but much of the world revolves around trust - it is usually mutually beneficial.

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Of all the different ethnic groups out here I find the Filipinos the hardest to understand.

I can see it now - the call centre in Manila

Customer - Id like to extend my contract on the mobile phone. Ref No......

'Advisor' - you wha, eh eh, you wha,mmmmmmm,eh, eh, oooh, eh, eh

I think you'll find that's a conversation from the Darlington call centre :)

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The person doing this article writing has been doing this part time for several years already, is super keen, can program in several different languages and has a masters degree in computing science. Honestly I couldn't be happier with her professionalism and level of knowledge and I am paying her far more than she can get for similar hours anywhere in the Philippines and this works out at $3.34 per hour = £2.04 per hour NOT £5 hour - I used £5 as an example as that is the most I was prepared to pay in these markets.

As I mentioned before there are teams of excellent programmers that will work for £10 hour global rates and I have mates that are over in the Philippines for the likes of IBM training people in SAP and other higher level IT related jobs which means that their own jobs will go too. Graphic design via sites like http://www.crowdspring.com/ and anything else IT you can think of is and will be outsourced once global internet speeds and education level out which I think is at most 5 years away and then what is UK PLC really going to be left with in this truly global workplace?

A commie paradise thanks to short termist capitalists like yourself. Luckily protectionism will probably kick in long before the jack boots march again, which is significanlty the lesser of two evils imo.

I can see where those of the 'levelling of playing fields' persuasion are coming from, however there’s more chance of Lord Lucan appearing in a Muppet Show rerun than that being allowed to happen.

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Rubbish. You don't need the threat of force in order to trade promises. There can be (and is) a free market for trading promises, just as easily as one for objects.

In the choice between unbacked promises and actual goods, actual goods will win every time.

You're talking nonsense now. A slate in a pub is a list of promises.

A slate in a pub has traded items - beer. You were talking about a purely promise system.

An agreement to owe someone a favour is a trade of promises. Sure, they may break an agreement (and once bitten...), but much of the world revolves around trust - it is usually mutually beneficial.

The capital is the item extended, not the promise to return it.

Edited by Injin
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In the choice between unbacked promises and actual goods, actual goods will win every time.

Perhaps - one in the hand is worth two in the bush, and all that. It doesn't mean un-backed promises are worthless though, especially as you don't have to physically store/secure a promise anywhere (just a small ledger somewhere).

A slate in a pub has traded items - beer. You were talking about a purely promise system.

And what is the landlord getting in exchange for the beer? A promise.

If the person (say, Bob) making the promise is trustworthy, then others may accept his promise too, in lieu of items. For instance, if the bar man wanted some meat, and the butcher knew of Bob's good word too, he may accept Bob's promise in lieu of items from the bar man.

[You don't need a bank for this, nor does it need to be backed by the state, but that is the current mechanism - we trust the bank to manage the risk exposure, instead of us having to track/gauge it.]

The capital is the item extended, not the promise to return it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the item extended', but financial capital is the product of promises, not of real capital (ie. goods/items).

When the real capital is gold coins, you don't need them most of the time, as financial capital is more liquid (ie. easier to trade as money). You may want to hold real capital if it looks like financial capital is becoming risky (ie. underlying promises of payment look shaky), but that is a personal choice. The point is both can and are traded (both directly indirectly).

In other words, financial capital's value is taken from the underlying items (say, gold coins), of which that the promises are in lieu of (say, promises for gold coins - credit).

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