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'civilization: The West And The Rest' Did You See It?

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we now lack the' Protestant Work Ethic.'

I find Naill Furguson a wee bit annoying, but could he be right?

He argued that 3 things were required for success and that the west is in decline because it lacks:-

1.Morality

2.The rule of law

3.Property Ownership Rights

Nothing to do with working for a pittance like the poor slaves in Chinndia..

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we now lack the' Protestant Work Ethic.'

I find Naill Furguson a wee bit annoying, but could he be right?

He argued that 3 things were required for success and that the west is in decline because it lacks:-

1.Morality

2.The rule of law

3.Property Ownership Rights

Nothing to do with working for a pittance like the poor slaves in Chinndia..

Well 1 is offski because people have lost religion but not replaced it with secular ethics, instead going all woo woo subjectivist.

2 was always a load of crap in practice, no change there.

3 is probably right, if we think for a moment how banking and the mortgage industry have operated the last 15 years in particular and in general for a lot longer, no one can find out who own anything with any accuracy.

Really though, it's the state. Limited states with very small roles have become big states doing damn near anything and everything but without the discipline of price signals, that's your underlying economy fecked. It doesn't matter how hard you work if you are doing the wrong thing, and you only know the right thing by letting others refuse your services or goods, whatever they happen to be.

Edited by Injin

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we now lack the' Protestant Work Ethic.'

I find Naill Furguson a wee bit annoying, but could he be right?

He argued that 3 things were required for success and that the west is in decline because it lacks:-

1.Morality

2.The rule of law

3.Property Ownership Rights

Nothing to do with working for a pittance like the poor slaves in Chinndia..

All 3 are clearly evident in China......... :rolleyes:

The west is in decline because big corporations are running the show and have exported jobs to the country with the lowest production costs.

Nothing lasts forever however I think he's wrong on his conclusions here. The west is declining because of it's high cost economic model, partly due to govts spending commitments based on future tax revenues they haven't collected yet but yet have some how accurately projected.

Edited by interestrateripoff

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Enjoyed it, but lost interest due to a number of points:

1. The assumption that people can only be 'moral' if they worship a sky fairy

2. The suggestion that man made global warming will doom us all blah blah - it is worship and funding of the AGW agenda which does us damage, not ignoring it

The West became preminent because it was so dynamic and rewarded innovation while punishing stupidy.

We really need to allow that last bit to occur.

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(...)

1.Morality

2.The rule of law

3.Property Ownership Rights

(...)

I wonder if the lack of those three ideas could be condensed into one word?

Hmm, what about:

Theft.

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I couldn't bring myself to watch that fool. Utter bean brain fodder.

For the west to succeed we need to stop the social conditioning that make us want material things way, way, way beyond those that meet our basic need.

Ferguson's idea of success is the formula of received "wisdom". It's arbitrary, and thicko, because it requires no thought just blind faith. He's nothing but a cleric. In medieval times he'd be promoting the merits of the ducking stool.

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The Ability to Work and Pay for your Own Property.

How important is it?

[Not to you. But To your Country?]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Civilisation. Is the West History? PROPERTY. [4OD]

Ferguson attempts to portray the last five hundred years of human history as the supremacy of 'the west' over the backwardness of the rest.

He cites six 'identifiable novel complexes of institutions and associated ideas and behaviour's at the root of this supposed western superiority; competition, science, private property rights, medicine, the consumer society, and the work ethic.

Ferguson argues that 'private property rights' are an essential ingredient of a "western" pattern civilization.

Private property rights were one of the main ingredient's in the development of democracy in the North American Continent.

The new 'Americans' were given land when they arrived, [whereas on the south American continent private property rights were non existent. These Rights were never established.]

The United States then became the world's first property owning democracy.

This being one of the major contributing factors to the United States becoming the dominant force in the world, [as a pose to South America. Even though South America was by far the richer country, and 500 years ago, was far more likely to become the dominant future global power.]

So the North American system of wide property ownership, was the basis of the economic success of the United States.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ferguson Also claims that the main advantage the West has, over China, is that China is unlikely to follow the mass property owning north American model of democracy.

As China are not interested in any democratic model.

Edited by Dan1

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The West is in decline because when people get power for too long - they get greedy. And when they get greedy they get stupid. And when they get stupid they think they can get away with anything they want forever. They soon find out they cannot and get royally ******ed over by the next in line. Who then think they will do things differently. Which they will. Until they have the power for too long - then they get greedy - then.......

It is as simple as that. People, and people alone, are the reason for all of our 'problems'. Any more detail below this is interesting and all - but ultimately pointless. As long as their are people - there will be ****** ups.

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The Ability to Work and Pay for your Own Property.

How important is it?

[Not to you. But To your Country?]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Civilisation. Is the West History? PROPERTY. [4OD]

Ferguson attempts to portray the last five hundred years of human history as the supremacy of 'the west' over the backwardness of the rest.

He cites six 'identifiable novel complexes of institutions and associated ideas and behaviour's at the root of this supposed western superiority; competition, science, private property rights, medicine, the consumer society, and the work ethic.

Ferguson argues that 'private property rights' are an essential ingredient of a "western" pattern civilization.

Private property rights were one of the main ingredient's in the development of democracy in the North American Continent.

The new 'Americans' were given land when they arrived, [whereas on the south American continent private property rights were non existent. These Rights were never established.]

The United States then became the world's first property owning democracy.

This being one of the major contributing factors to the United States becoming the dominant force in the world, [as a pose to South America. Even though South America was by far the richer country, and 500 years ago, was far more likely to become the dominant future global power.]

So the North American system of wide property ownership, was the basis of the economic success of the United States.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ferguson Also claims that the main advantage the West has, over China, is that China is unlikely to follow the mass property owning north American model of democracy.

As China are not interested in any democratic model.

Therefore China would fail to gain ascendancy in the future?

Does Naill mention India? A 'freer' country than China, religious but without the protestant work ethic. Incidentally, it also has a slave army of workers which should helps things along..

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Ferguson may be right in a way, but what he's failed to grasp is that the terms of all three requirements were dictated by one section of society to be forced on others. As such he's merely become a parrot for the powerful. The 'decline' of the west is due to none of these things being universally agreed and people waking up and smelling the bullsh*t.

Essentially his message is 'go back to listening to your masters, they know what's good for you'.

Edited by shipbuilder

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I couldn't bring myself to watch that fool. Utter bean brain fodder.

For the west to succeed we need to stop the social conditioning that make us want material things way, way, way beyond those that meet our basic need.

Ferguson's idea of success is the formula of received "wisdom". It's arbitrary, and thicko, because it requires no thought just blind faith. He's nothing but a cleric. In medieval times he'd be promoting the merits of the ducking stool.

+1

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There can be no bigger lie from the masters to the slaves than the virtues of the 'work ethic'. As the saying goes, if work were so virtuous, wouldn't the rich be lining up outside factory doors? Niall Ferguson sunk himself with this nonsense.

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we now lack the' Protestant Work Ethic.'

I find Naill Furguson a wee bit annoying, but could he be right?

He argued that 3 things were required for success and that the west is in decline because it lacks:-

1.Morality

2.The rule of law

3.Property Ownership Rights

Nothing to do with working for a pittance like the poor slaves in Chinndia..

The West is in decline because people like Brooksley Born lost and Greenspan, Rubin and that tw@t Summers all won.

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I couldn't bring myself to watch that fool. Utter bean brain fodder.

For the west to succeed we need to stop the social conditioning that make us want material things way, way, way beyond those that meet our basic need.

Ferguson's idea of success is the formula of received "wisdom". It's arbitrary, and thicko, because it requires no thought just blind faith. He's nothing but a cleric. In medieval times he'd be promoting the merits of the ducking stool.

No. No. No.

The West has failed because the fruits of production have fallen into the wrong hands. If somebody wants something and is prepared to work hard to get it they're not 'greedy consumers', they just hold values that differ to your own.

Parasitism not consumerism has ruined the west. Consumption/production is the solution.

Edited by Authoritarian

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There can be no bigger lie from the masters to the slaves than the virtues of the 'work ethic'. As the saying goes, if work were so virtuous, wouldn't the rich be lining up outside factory doors? Niall Ferguson sunk himself with this nonsense.

I was cringing watching all the American Bible Bashers and the preacher, Naill interviewed,

'Your not working for your master, your working for God!'

Okay mate.

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The basic premise that there was anything organisational or culturally inherent in the rise of the West is a load of boollacks.

If you want to find out why the West/Europe grew to a postion of global predominance, then you need to look at ecological, environmental and geographical features.

For instance, population growth was essential to the early civilisational development across the globe, as it released labour involved in agriculture and allowed groups of individuals to spend time specialising in developing a written system and early technological development. Homo Sapiens started off in Africa but due to Africa's harsh ecological context (sporadic rainfall patterns and drought; diseases such as malaria, bilharzia and sleeping sickness; largely poor soils) its population growth was glacial. The populations in Europe and Asia, which descended from the Out of Africa migrants, rapidly overtook the population remaining in Africa.

Read John Reader's 'Africa: Biography of a Continent' and Jared Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel' for a scientific explanation of Western ascendancy and ignore the shite spouted by the likes of Niall Ferguson.

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Watched the lot and greatly enjoyed it, but I've always thought the protestant work ethic a bit simplistic as an explanation. The cultural component of a free market is, in a word, trust. In other words a shared set of beliefs and values that are socially reinforced. I need to know that you're thinking what I'm thinking, that you think an ethical concept means the same as I think it means, and that there's a social cost for breaking those rules. If that's in decline it's not because we all stopped going to the same church fetes, it's because civil society has been hollowed out in the last 50 years by hedonism, unconstrained individualism and moral relativism. Into the collapsing civil society steps the State through which all the non-contractual relationships we took for granted, the things Smith wrote about in The Theory of Moral Sentiments, have to be conducted. We atomised individuals are more likely to trust a bureaurcrat than our next-door neighbours.

Edited by kenzdawg

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1.] Therefore China would fail to gain ascendancy in the future?

Does Naill mention India? A 'freer' country than China, religious but without the protestant work ethic. Incidentally, it also has a slave army of workers which should helps things along..

He didnt mention India.I dont suppose it matters really.

When 2% of the world's population own over 50% of the world's wealth, and the 50 largest financial institutions control a third of the world's assets, which means that just over 1000 people, have twice as many assets as the 2.5 Billion poorest.

We know that it will always be the same Plutocratic Vested Interest's across the entire socio/economic/political spectrum, who will benefit at the expense of the rest of us.

Just as has happened in Rome, Ancient Greece, Carthage, and every Empire thereafter.

That wont change.

Geopolitical Power could be likened to Energy. Energy is never destroyed, remains constant, only changing form.

And as this geopolitical power is polarised amongst new host countries, and empires, [which always inevitably leads to War.]

There will be winners and losers.

Personally my interpretation of what the worlds top scientists are referring to, when they say that humanity is doomed.

Is that they are really saying, history repeats itself, because human nature does not change.

And in the end, it will be the same Plutocratic Vested Interest decision making process which will destroy us all.

C'est la Vie.

Were all still monkeys really, on the evolutionary scale......

Now imagine a world, post global government, post appocalypse, where humanity has cast aside the pursuit of money as its primary purpose.........

Edited by Dan1

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I was cringing watching all the American Bible Bashers and the preacher, Naill interviewed,

'Your not working for your master, your working for God!'

Okay mate.

Yes.

The bottom line with bible bashers is that they are on gods side so whatever they do is right. If that's morality you can keep it.

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I liked the way they used film of thousands of factory workers making ballpoint pens to illustrate the 'protestant work ethic'. As if that is what they aspire to doing! Or that our great-great grandfathers aspired to working down a coal mine or on the docks or in a textile factory.

In interviews he readily admits to being a workaholic (with a divorce to match) - I get the impression that his own view of work is skewing his historical analysis.

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I liked the way they used film of thousands of factory workers making ballpoint pens to illustrate the 'protestant work ethic'. As if that is what they aspire to doing! Or that our great-great grandfathers aspired to working down a coal mine or on the docks or in a textile factory.

In interviews he readily admits to being a workaholic (with a divorce to match) - I get the impression that his own view of work is skewing his historical analysis.

Exactly. It is like that BBC series on work in the modern world that made out we are all defined by our careers and passionate about our work.

I'd pretty much rather do anything else than work in 99% of jobs that exist!

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I liked the way they used film of thousands of factory workers making ballpoint pens to illustrate the 'protestant work ethic'. As if that is what they aspire to doing! Or that our great-great grandfathers aspired to working down a coal mine or on the docks or in a textile factory.

In interviews he readily admits to being a workaholic (with a divorce to match) - I get the impression that his own view of work is skewing his historical analysis.

Quite. it's pretty vile to be told your own poverty is a result of your laziness when you're a wage slave. It ought to be called the protestant productivity ethic; it only works if you have the financial and technological means to increase the value of your own labour.

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I couldn't bring myself to watch that fool. Utter bean brain fodder.

For the west to succeed we need to stop the social conditioning that make us want material things way, way, way beyond those that meet our basic need.

Ferguson's idea of success is the formula of received "wisdom". It's arbitrary, and thicko, because it requires no thought just blind faith. He's nothing but a cleric. In medieval times he'd be promoting the merits of the ducking stool.

^ 1,000,000

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It's 'cause the 'rich' are stealing everything.

Even he must have figured that out by now surely.

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It's 'cause the 'rich' are stealing everything.

Even he must have figured that out by now surely.

but if the wealthy dont own everything they will be less inclined to trickle it down and then the poor will be really fcked

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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