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EmmaRoid #FBPE#JC4PM#GTTO

Boiler Troubles

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Just moved into a new rental and the boiler is very old, very inefficent, it has a mind of its own and uses a prodigious amount of gas. In the first month we've used 6700 cubic ft of gas for little more than a bit of cooking and hot water (but electric shower!), we've hardly had the heating on in that time, 5 or 6 nights. To me and the gas company that sounds like a lot of gas

I've taken daily readings for a week or so and tried to work out what is going on. Part of the problem seems to be that the boiler randomly fires off every 20-30mins and uses a big slug of gas, whatever the wall controls are set too - even when it is "off". The wall controls/timer seem to control the heating side of things well enough but the hot water has a mind of its own. We never run out of hot water even when those wall controls are set to off for days at a time. Is it possible to stop it continually heating water through the day? I've done what I can to reduce consumption by turning down the thermostat setting on the actual boiler and setting the water pump at a lower speed but it is still burning a lot of gas in my book.

The brief details of the system is that it is an Ideal Standard Type E conventional flue boiler (circa late 70s), the pump is a typical Grundfos item, there are 2 circuits controlled by typical Honeywell valves, the wall control is an ancient affair with an analogue clock face and little pins to select the timings (for what good that does) and there is also a separate room thermostat. The landlord says it is safe as in it has a valid cert so is otherwise not bothered by its performance/efficiency (or lack of).

Any ideas what is going on? Hot water system valve working properly? The pump seems to run permanently which doesn't seem right to me either?

My previous experience of combi boilers and electric economy7 systems isn't helping me much.

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Did you get an EPC before you moved in? Did it have the gas figures on?

Have you looked up a Ideal Standard Type E? and seen what people have said about it.

Is there no "heating only" option.

Does it have a hot water tank?

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Did you get an EPC before you moved in? Did it have the gas figures on?- EPC will tell you its not the most efficient thing in the world which I knew but not how I expected it to operate

Have you looked up a Ideal Standard Type E? and seen what people have said about it. - Ancient but bombproof, inefficient but nothing regarding this issue as such. Some stuff about modifying the pipework to make it run better but this isn't my house to do such tinkering.

Is there no "heating only" option. - No I seemingly cannot turn off the hot water circuit unless I turn off the boiler

Does it have a hot water tank? - Yes

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Did you get an EPC before you moved in? Did it have the gas figures on?- EPC will tell you its not the most efficient thing in the world which I knew but not how I expected it to operate

Have you looked up a Ideal Standard Type E? and seen what people have said about it. - Ancient but bombproof, inefficient but nothing regarding this issue as such. Some stuff about modifying the pipework to make it run better but this isn't my house to do such tinkering.

Is there no "heating only" option. - No I seemingly cannot turn off the hot water circuit unless I turn off the boiler

Does it have a hot water tank? - Yes

Are you inadvertently heating the landlord's flat, too?

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I thought this was a Bernard Manning style thread consisting mainly of puns about the wife.

I`m here all week. :)

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I've taken daily readings for a week or so and tried to work out what is going on. Part of the problem seems to be that the boiler randomly fires off every 20-30mins and uses a big slug of gas, whatever the wall controls are set too - even when it is "off". The wall controls/timer seem to control the heating side of things well enough but the hot water has a mind of its own. We never run out of hot water even when those wall controls are set to off for days at a time. Is it possible to stop it continually heating water through the day? I've done what I can to reduce consumption by turning down the thermostat setting on the actual boiler and setting the water pump at a lower speed but it is still burning a lot of gas in my book.

Ahhhhhh.

Turning the boiler stat down may well have entirely the opposite effect.

I had a very similar problem - HW firing all the time, even when I wasn't using it. The boiler would start up, run for a minute, then shut down, only to start again 2 minutes later. To be fair, mine only did it when it was commanded to, sounds like you have the HW wired in outside the timer.

So what was my problem?

The boiler has a thermostat which determines the output temperature of the boiler. Say it is 70C. When the heating loop (CH and DHW) reaches that, it shuts down. Now the DHW cylinder also has a stat, which regulates demand. Say it is also set to 70C. Seems logical? It isn't at all. A 70C loop will never heat a cylinder to 70C. It might hit 65, but never 70. So the cylinder is saying "I need heat", the boiler is starting up then instantly realising it is at temperature then shutting down again. The pump is running because it is on a shutdown timer after the last firing.

Turn the tank stat down and the boiler stat up.

(This assumes that you have a conventional DHW and CH with a tank, not a combi)

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Ahhhhhh.

Turning the boiler stat down may well have entirely the opposite effect.

I had a very similar problem - HW firing all the time, even when I wasn't using it. The boiler would start up, run for a minute, then shut down, only to start again 2 minutes later. To be fair, mine only did it when it was commanded to, sounds like you have the HW wired in outside the timer.

So what was my problem?

The boiler has a thermostat which determines the output temperature of the boiler. Say it is 70C. When the heating loop (CH and DHW) reaches that, it shuts down. Now the DHW cylinder also has a stat, which regulates demand. Say it is also set to 70C. Seems logical? It isn't at all. A 70C loop will never heat a cylinder to 70C. It might hit 65, but never 70. So the cylinder is saying "I need heat", the boiler is starting up then instantly realising it is at temperature then shutting down again. The pump is running because it is on a shutdown timer after the last firing.

Turn the tank stat down and the boiler stat up.

(This assumes that you have a conventional DHW and CH with a tank, not a combi)

Thanks, its worth a try at least although it was even worse before I turned the boiler stat down.

There is a stat on the HW tank but I wasn't sure if this was for the immersion heater instead. I've tried to trace where all the elec wires go but not had much success.

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The controllers I have seen, have had a clock with 4 arms , which allow the

timing to be set with possible choices of off,on (24hrs),all day and twice a day

for both heating and dhw . Most systems are done so that if the heating is on

then the dhw is also on. All 3 controllers that I have seen, allow it to be turned off

ie no heating and no dhw , so if that is a choice on yours (and it should be) then

the boiler should not fire up ... the pumps may run (as rxe said for overrun),

but the boiler should not run .

fwiw, the uk.d-i-y faq is at

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/controls/controls.html

cheers,

rockhopper

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it could be that the thermostat on the boiler is set too low, below the tank thermostat*. It will then never heat the hot water sufficiently to trip the tank thermostat, but will cut off when the boiler reaches it's thermostat setting . It will then wait 20 mins for the boiler to cool down, and then fire up again to try to get the water tank hot enough. it'll keep on doing it.

* or the tank thermostat has failed? Try turning it and listening for the click.

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No but I have the warmest, driest unconverted cellar I've ever been in.

When we moved in it was the warmest room in the house

It's probably the escaping heat of the fires of Hell! :o

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Got my gas consumption down to a consistent (but still very high) level with no heating use and letting the boiler do its own thing all day long. The 'stat on the HW tank seems wired to the immersion and not found any other HW related controls. Having reviewed the boiler instructions, thankfully stuck to the inside of the boiler cabinet, my simplest option seems to be to switch off the boiler for the 16 hours or so during the day and see if that makes an improvement.

Really bugged to not be able to find out why the boiler won't stay off during the day.

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Why don't you tell the landlord there is a fault with the boiler and get the engineer in ? Might there not be a leak somewhere ?

( I don't think there is necessarily a smell of gas before an explosion)

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If the boiler is running when you've switched both the CH and HW off on the 'clock', it could be a problem with one or t'other of the motorised valves. Might need a new motor (around £10 from Wickes), or may just need the microswitch connection tweaking a bit.

If the system isn't recognising that the switch has disconnected, the boiler runs on, even if you've set the CH and HW on the "off/once/twice/always on" setting to "off". On mine I just needed to bend a small strip of metal that makes the contact with the valve microswitch - a bit fiddly but not too tricky. Turn off the leccy to the valves before fiddling, though!

A short term money saving fix is just turn the boiler thermostat to zero when you're out.

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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