worzel Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Not seen a poll on this yet, so apologies if this has already been done. I appreciate that it should be in the politics forum, but it only gets about 4 posts a day so would be appreciated if this could be left in the main forum for a little while. Also - will AV change houseprices? Tenuous I know, but never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 coalitions are the way forward. We need policies that are for the long term not for short termist political gain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 First passed the post is crap. Alternative vote sounds very interesting but not sure that's the solution. Coalitions do sound better. Would love to hear more opinions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number79 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 If the Miwiband wants it then it cant be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 First passed the post is crap. Alternative vote sounds very interesting but not sure that's the solution. Coalitions do sound better. Would love to hear more opinions... I find it amusing when people defend first passed the post, like its OK to have mob rule as long as its decisive, even if only 30% of the population want a particular party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabbagepatchkid Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Good idea for a poll. Just voted in favour. AV seems a far fairer system to me although would prefer to have see STV for better proportionality. I have seen various bits of anti AV propaganda in the media and on billboard and newspaper ads and find the no campaign pretty disgusting, cowardly and frankly dishonest on many levels. I'll be seriously disappointed if the referendum doesn't endorse a change to AV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetsGetReadyToTumble Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Fiji, Australia and Papua New Guinea use AV. Says it all really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57percent Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Nothing wrong with AV, but it won't change much and a referendum is a waste of money. Does it need a 40% turnout to go through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabbagepatchkid Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Fiji, Australia and Papua New Guinea use AV. Says it all really. And most political parties when choosing a leader. Our local and regional assembly and european elections all use systems other than fptp. Germany and other leading nations use proportional systems too. Like I said above, STV or other truly proportional system would have been preferable but Cameron refused to entertain the idea and Clegg lacked the bottle to push the point. AV is fairer and would encourage politicians of all persuasions to work harder for us. I have yet to find anyone with a sensible argument against a change in our electoral system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 If the Miwiband wants it then it cant be a good thing. it's not Mwiwiband wants it, it's Mandelson. You should know this by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I find it amusing when people defend first passed the post, like its OK to have mob rule as long as its decisive, even if only 30% of the population want a particular party. I haven't seen anyone actually defend FPTP. The reason being that it's basically indefensable.. The arguments from the 'No' crowd seem to be - People are too stupid to list candidates in order. - People with minority views (BNP, Green) may get their views heard. - It would cost money. - Nick Clegg would prefer full PR to AV, from which we can infer that he prefers FPTP to AV - Actually, Nick Clegg. The problem is, the real argument that the anti-AV lot want to make is 'We joined Labour/Conservatives in order to get a shot at near dictatorial power in a major 1st world country, based on about 20-25% of voters, with a system where only 1-2% of the electorate actually need to change their vote'. After all, it would only have taken another 2% or so swing to have given Cameron a full majority last election.. and the 2005-2010 labour government had a healthy majority over a 5 year term based on just 36% of those who voted. (~22% of voters or ~18% of the population..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 First passed the post is crap. Alternative vote sounds very interesting but not sure that's the solution. Coalitions do sound better. Would love to hear more opinions... +1 my thoughts are it is an optimal time to do it because the tory party in power is the most cynical - ie will implement it with a realistic eye to the shortcomings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 The Yes campaign is largely funded by a company who makes counting machines for...AV! It's an overcomplicated load o' sh*te, of dubious benefit and allows twonks like Lucas to gain influence well above their level of support. To be avoided at all costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 2. I never, ever want a bunch like the last Labour lot in on their own ever, ever again. This is the thing that gets me.. and it seems that the anti-AV conservatives seem to forget it. Almost as if they are complete political cynics who don't care as long as they get 'their turn'.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 The Yes campaign is largely funded by a company who makes counting machines for...AV! It's an overcomplicated load o' sh*te, of dubious benefit and allows twonks like Lucas to gain influence well above their level of support. To be avoided at all costs. How could someone get influence over and above their level of support under AV? Its really not very complicated, pick your favourite, pick your second favourite. Got anything better than this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 The Yes campaign is largely funded by a company who makes counting machines for...AV! Meaning what about the pros and cons? It's an overcomplicated load o' sh*te, of dubious benefit and allows twonks like Lucas to gain influence well above their level of support. To be avoided at all costs. As I said: We are too stupid for it and allows people to vote for the party they prefer. Can't have that. (Quick question: What percentage of the vote did the greens get at the last election, and what percentage of seats?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I haven't seen anyone actually defend FPTP. The reason being that it's basically indefensable.. The arguments from the 'No' crowd seem to be - People are too stupid to list candidates in order. - People with minority views (BNP, Green) may get their views heard. - It would cost money. - Nick Clegg would prefer full PR to AV, from which we can infer that he prefers FPTP to AV - Actually, Nick Clegg. The problem is, the real argument that the anti-AV lot want to make is 'We joined Labour/Conservatives in order to get a shot at near dictatorial power in a major 1st world country, based on about 20-25% of voters, with a system where only 1-2% of the electorate actually need to change their vote'. After all, it would only have taken another 2% or so swing to have given Cameron a full majority last election.. and the 2005-2010 labour government had a healthy majority over a 5 year term based on just 36% of those who voted. (~22% of voters or ~18% of the population..) Seems like this is HPC's sanctimonious love-in thread of the day. FWIW I've never voted for either Labour/Conservatives, nor am I likely to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 How could someone get influence over and above their level of support under AV? Its really not very complicated, pick your favourite, pick your second favourite. Got anything better than this? yup, pick your favourite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphmalph Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 How could someone get influence over and above their level of support under AV? Its really not very complicated, pick your favourite, pick your second favourite. Got anything better than this? Just look at Australia, Labour were just 2 or 3 votes short of a majority and so they went to the independents and said for your support what do you want to happen in your constituency. They of course said "loads of money and governemnt jobs and new sports stadium of the local team and and and and." None of which benefited the whole of the country. So if Caroline Lucas was the swing vote in a coalition she would say "build all windfarms in Tory heartlands but no wind farms for Brighton but Brighton needs loads of public money spent on greeny things." The Americans call it Pork Barrel Politics and look at the Shxt they are in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Seems like this is HPC's sanctimonious love-in thread of the day. FWIW I've never voted for either Labour/Conservatives, nor am I likely to. So you don't like the two big parties but you support a voting system that pretty much locks them in power? (Hmmm.. let me guess: You read part of the Murdoch empire? AV would make life harder for them, it's much easier now to guess the winner and 'support' them for favours) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 yup, pick your favourite. What if your in a marginal seat and your favourite has no chance of winning but you hate one of the candidates that is in the running? Should you still pick your favourite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Wont make any difference. Whats the point of voting for a national govt in a national election when the nation state doesnt exist. Choose anything other than the establishment, and, like Ireland, we wont be able to pass a budget without the EU-fascist's consent. Or, we'll just go the Belgian route and drop the sorry facade and not even bother with a sham govt. So i wont be voting, its a loaded, disingenous choice anyway. Give us a vote on the EU first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 Just look at Australia, Labour were just 2 or 3 votes short of a majority and so they went to the independents and said for your support what do you want to happen in your constituency. They of course said "loads of money and governemnt jobs and new sports stadium of the local team and and and and." None of which benefited the whole of the country. So if Caroline Lucas was the swing vote in a coalition she would say "build all windfarms in Tory heartlands but no wind farms for Brighton but Brighton needs loads of public money spent on greeny things." The Americans call it Pork Barrel Politics and look at the Shxt they are in. Compared to the current system where government policies are dependent on what they think will make them popular with people in marginal constituencies. The current system allows a party with only about 30 odd % of the vote to dictate policy. Of the 30% that voted for them, a decent chunk only did so because the person they would have liked to win had no chance of doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Wont make any difference. Whats the point of voting for a national govt in a national election when the nation state doesnt exist. Choose anything other than the establishment, and, like Ireland, we wont be able to pass a budget without the EU-fascist's consent. Or, we'll just go the Belgian route and drop the sorry facade and not even bother with a sham govt. So i wont be voting, its a loaded, disingenous choice anyway. Give us a vote on the EU first. At the moment, a vote for UKIP is effectively thrown away. Furthermore, the mainstream parties know that the real anti-EU zealots won't be voting for them, so they can be more pro-european then otherwise. Under AV, since you would have a second choice, you could vote UKIP as a true intention - hence it would show up in the polls more - but the mainstream parties would still be after your alternative vote, meaning they would be more inclined to promise your referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 So you don't like the two big parties but you support a voting system that pretty much locks them in power? (Hmmm.. let me guess: You read part of the Murdoch empire? AV would make life harder for them, it's much easier now to guess the winner and 'support' them for favours) The frothing 'Yes' supporters cannot conceive that someone who does not support the larger parties can be against AV without being some sort of vested business interest. Get a grip. The fact is, the problems we face in Parliament with politicians/Government are exacerbated by AV, not solved. The reasons are plainly spelled out by ralphmalph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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