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World Debt League Table

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I wonder where the UK would be if all nations had to put their off balance sheet debt onto the balance sheet?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html?countryName=Zimbabwe&countryCode=zi&regionCode=af&rank=4#zi

Rank country (% of GDP) Date of Information

1 Japan 225.80 2010 est.

2 Saint Kitts and Nevis 185.00 2009 est.

3 Lebanon 150.70 2010 est.

4 Zimbabwe 149.00 2010 est.

5 Greece 144.00 2010 est.

6 Iceland 123.80 2010 est.

7 Jamaica 123.20 2010 est.

8 Italy 118.10 2010 est.

9 Singapore 102.40 2010 est.

10 Belgium 98.60 2010 est.

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I wonder where the UK would be if all nations had to put their off balance sheet debt onto the balance sheet?

Probably the same given that the practice is so rife.

Man we are fecked.

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I wonder where the UK would be if all nations had to put their off balance sheet debt onto the balance sheet?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html?countryName=Zimbabwe&countryCode=zi&regionCode=af&rank=4#zi

Rank country (% of GDP) Date of Information

1 Japan 225.80 2010 est.

2 Saint Kitts and Nevis 185.00 2009 est.

3 Lebanon 150.70 2010 est.

4 Zimbabwe 149.00 2010 est.

5 Greece 144.00 2010 est.

6 Iceland 123.80 2010 est.

7 Jamaica 123.20 2010 est.

8 Italy 118.10 2010 est.

9 Singapore 102.40 2010 est.

10 Belgium 98.60 2010 est.

Soon to join top 10? We are at 23. The way you guys crack on on this forum I would have thought we were already well clear in the number 1 slot. <_<

Edit to add,

It would not have been that many years ago when guys like you would have been comparing Britain with Japan and telling us how great they were and how sick we were.

Edited by Nickolarge

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Soon to join top 10? We are at 23. The way you guys crack on on this forum I would have thought we were already well clear in the number 1 slot. <_<

Edit to add,

It would not have been that many years ago when guys like you would have been comparing Britain with Japan and telling us how great they were and how sick we were.

Yup the UK also still behind Germany for the time being.

Interesting to see who is in last place (I'm sure they'll start moving up quite soon)

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Yup the UK also still behind Germany for the time being.

Interesting to see who is in last place (I'm sure they'll start moving up quite soon)

According to the link, last place was Libya.

I think that there are a lot of countries that are not on the list, presumably because their states dont have any debt.

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According to the link, last place was Libya.

I think that there are a lot of countries that are not on the list, presumably because their states dont have any debt.

Yes - I was speculating that when Libya is "liberated" the Chinese will start offering helpful loans to help them "rebuild".

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Yes - I was speculating that when Libya is "liberated" the Chinese will start offering helpful loans to help them "rebuild".

China? You dont think that they will be pumped full of dollars?

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I wonder where the UK would be if all nations had to put their off balance sheet debt onto the balance sheet?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html?countryName=Zimbabwe&countryCode=zi&regionCode=af&rank=4#zi

Rank country (% of GDP) Date of Information

1 Japan 225.80 2010 est.

2 Saint Kitts and Nevis 185.00 2009 est.

3 Lebanon 150.70 2010 est.

4 Zimbabwe 149.00 2010 est.

5 Greece 144.00 2010 est.

6 Iceland 123.80 2010 est.

7 Jamaica 123.20 2010 est.

8 Italy 118.10 2010 est.

9 Singapore 102.40 2010 est.

10 Belgium 98.60 2010 est.

Not very meaningful table at all I am afraid. In Singapore case, Singapore government owes the money to its own pension fund - hardly an issue and Singapore is a AAA

rated state.

To be meaningful, one of need to know in what currencies those debt are in. Belgium will indeed be joining the basket case (like the PIGS) soon.

UK should be just about ok if the UKUncut don't get their way or if inflation doesn't gets out of control (George and King will be pray for that).

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Soon to join top 10? We are at 23. The way you guys crack on on this forum I would have thought we were already well clear in the number 1 slot. <_<

Edit to add,

It would not have been that many years ago when guys like you would have been comparing Britain with Japan and telling us how great they were and how sick we were.

the deficit is 11% per year, so we would expect to pass 100% in 2 years. government taxes last year around £450 billion. government spending £600 billion.

current total debt is £850 billion.

unless the government cuts spending drastically we are in trouble. passing 100% GDP is a case of when not if.

to understand of the scale of the problem if we broke even (no chance!) i.e no deficit for the year. we would still be 80% of GDP in debt, stuck at £850 billion.

rememeber we are not paying this debt down, just reducing the rate of borrowing. at peak times we should be at around 40% GDP.

so even with massive cuts, our debt will just keep rising and rising.

thats why the cuts must be so swift and harsh right now. it is a must.

Edited by mfp123

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Soon to join top 10? We are at 23. The way you guys crack on on this forum I would have thought we were already well clear in the number 1 slot. <_<

(...)

We probably are. The data in the op is only about government debt. What matters more is the total national debt: government + households + companies. Our monetary authorities kept interest rates too low for too long, and didn't curb the mortgage market lunacy. See the result below:

(...)

McK%205.jpg

debt-sovereign.png

We are screwed for at least a decade, maybe 2, and we will never catchup with countries we thought were our "peers", such as France, Germany, and even Italy. Even Brazil will overtake us in a couple of years. We will fall to about 10th place/economy in about 5 years. Sorry.

Source: Mckinsey Institute. Link to the full report below (in PDF). The chart in question is on page 10.

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/reports/freepass_pdfs/debt_and_deleveraging/debt_and_deleveraging_full_report.pdf

PS: Note that at the end of 2003 the total debt was almost peaking. But in Dec 2003 Chancellor Brown changed the inflation index, from RPI to CPI, despite BoE's opposition, forcing the BoE to keep interest rates too low. Yes, it was mainly Gordon Brown's fault.

A very important new report by the Bank for International Settlements (BIS).

UK Total Debt (Gov.+ Households + Companies) / GDP still going up.

First solid data that I am aware of since the McKinsey report showed total debts up to 2008. This BIS report comes all the way up to 2010.

debttogdp2010.png

Source: http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1009e.pdf

IMO the debt/GDP going up is only partially explained by the UK GDP reduction - of around 5% since the crisis IIRC.

Notice that the data excludes the financial sectors. In this case Ireland and the USA are not as bad as I had thought. France is though.

Japan and UK are getting even worse. We knew already that Canada and Germany were fine, and that Spain was as screwed up as us.

Edited by Tired of Waiting

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We probably are. The data in the op is only about government debt. What matters more is the total national debt: government + households + companies. Our monetary authorities kept interest rates too low for too long, and didn't curb the mortgage market lunacy. See the result below:

Great post.. which leads almost directly into the thread about Moodys discussing private mortgage/credit risk HERE

I guess they also believe there is simply too much debt in the system..

This has helped contribute to the current situation, however it has also led to fears that Britain has not acted quickly enough to reduce individual debt levels, which remain among the highest of any developed country.

Since there is no longer a global systemic risk, and the banks are supposedly no longer "too big to fail", perhaps we should allow the debts to go bad and send the buggers to the wall..

Edited by libspero

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Great post.. which leads almost directly into the thread about Moodys discussing private mortgage/credit risk HERE

I guess they also believe there is simply too much debt in the system..

Since there is no longer a global systemic risk, and the banks are supposedly no longer "too big to fail", perhaps we should allow the debts to go bad and send the buggers to the wall..

Thanks. Yes, that 2nd Mckinsey chart there is IMO the chart of the decade. It shows very graphically our "living beyond our means"

Our total debt as a % of GDP went from 290 to 480, in just 9 years. A jump of almost 200% of GDP ( = 2 years of total national production), in 9 years. Unbelievable.

It also shows our national recklessness.

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Indeed. Given Gordon made the banks problems our problems why even bother treating govt debt as distinct. The govt is now liable for ALL debts.

Along with Japan, we are the most indebted country in the world. But no one ever mentions that 4/5th's of debts

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Indeed. Given Gordon made the banks problems our problems why even bother treating govt debt as distinct. The govt is now liable for ALL debts.

Along with Japan, we are the most indebted country in the world. But no one ever mentions that 4/5th's of debts

Even without government liability, if households and companies are too indebted, economic growth will be slow, and tax receipts will also grow slowly. That is why recoveries after financial crisis are so slow. The only way is to bring the currency down, to repress imports and help exports, to "pay our way" in the world. We will have to work.

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We probably are. The data in the op is only about government debt. What matters more is the total national debt: government + households + companies. Our monetary authorities kept interest rates too low for too long, and didn't curb the mortgage market lunacy. See the result below:

Looking at the first chart it seems that our "government debt" is no worse than nearly everyone else's and if you take it as a proportion of total national debt it's much smaller than most. Is it legitimate to view it in that way? On the surface it does not seem to me that our government borrowing is out of line with the rest of the world.

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Since there is no longer a global systemic risk, and the banks are supposedly no longer "too big to fail", perhaps we should allow the debts to go bad and send the buggers to the wall..

I have suggested the same many times. An individual burdened with this level of debt would declare themselves insolvent. If all the indebted countries pressed the reset button I am certain that someone somewhere would suffer but I don't think it would be me.

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Looking at the first chart it seems that our "government debt" is no worse than nearly everyone else's and if you take it as a proportion of total national debt it's much smaller than most. Is it legitimate to view it in that way? On the surface it does not seem to me that our government borrowing is out of line with the rest of the world.

Yes, our problem was not direct government debt, but a credit bubble mainly linked with the property bubble, that was injecting money in the whole economy, increasing also government tax receipts. The whole economy / country was borrowing too much, and living beyond its means.

The bubble was obvious to everybody with access to this data. But the whole country was enjoying the boom party too much, and refused to listen to the warnings, including the government, opposition, monetary authorities (FSA and BoE), media, and most of the people, including my (and your) friends, relatives, acquaintances neighbours and colleagues. If you or I tried to warn them, they would think we were stupid, or even resent us as party poopers.

.

Edited by Tired of Waiting

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Looking at the first chart it seems that our "government debt" is no worse than nearly everyone else's and if you take it as a proportion of total national debt it's much smaller than most. Is it legitimate to view it in that way? On the surface it does not seem to me that our government borrowing is out of line with the rest of the world.

It isnt. Like i mentioned, its the other 4/5th's of debt that are the problem.

The 4/5ths that Gordon said he'll get the taxpayer to insure.

But their not 'govt debt' you must see, just our liability. :lol:

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Yes, our problem was not direct government debt, but a credit bubble mainly linked with the property bubble, that was injecting money in the whole economy, increasing also government tax receipts. The whole economy / country was borrowing too much, and living beyond its means.

The bubble was obvious to everybody with access to this data. But the whole country was enjoying the boom party too much, and refused to listen to the warnings, including the government, opposition, monetary authorities (FSA and BoE), media, and most of the people, including my (and your) friends, relatives, acquaintances neighbours and colleagues. If you or I tried to warn them, they would think we were stupid, or even resent us as party poopers.

.

Well, I withdrew from the boom party in 2004 and had all my affairs in order by late 2007. When, I wonder, did other members of this site start to actually act? I would be interested to hear their stories. Needs it's own thread perhaps.

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It isnt. Like i mentioned, its the other 4/5th's of debt that are the problem.

The 4/5ths that Gordon said he'll get the taxpayer to insure.

But their not 'govt debt' you must see, just our liability. :lol:

Yes, it's become blindingly obvious that it's our liability.

The question is, should it be? And if not, what can we do about it?

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Yes, it's become blindingly obvious that it's our liability.

The question is, should it be? And if not, what can we do about it?

As this is a British Government we're talking about nothing less than marching on Whitehall with torches and pitchforks is likely to change their minds, unless their big business masters tell them to change. <_<

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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