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Bulls, You Don't Have To Apologise;

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Gordon Brown has shown us what it means to be in the 'brown stuff'. Private debt is at record levels and public overspending is out of control. Sustainable jobs (especially in manufacturing) are dissappearing daily and the recent growth in service jobs will be reversed with interest once people and the government start living within their means.

Two years ago bulls could point to healthy month on month price rises and falling unemployment as justification for their optimism. The media declared millions of winners in the house pyramid game. Like all pyramids however, things fall apart when prospective recruits start smelling a rate. Lets face it, a quarter of million pounds for a pokey little flat in a congested development is ridiculous. The only people buying today are the highly suggestible types who never read newspapers.

The good news about houses has gone. Bulls hunt through dustbins looking for scraps of information to sustain a tiny glimmer of hope. The best they can find however are surveys by desperate lenders asking desperate home owners if they think prices will rise again. The bulls clutch on to mangled statistics where all pretence of comparing like with like have been abandoned.

So what can the bulls do? For many of you (especially BTLs) I am afraid there is little hope. You may salvage something with a firesale but dreams of instant riches have to be replaced with the prospect of rapidly rising debt. Although you have lost, you can still help others. I am not asking you to apologise but if can acknowledge your stupidity this may prevent others from making the same foolish mistakes.

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Hmmmmmmmmmm . . . .

I wouldn't gloat about the Bulls predicament if I were you!

Remember -

It was the Government, Landowners, Building Companies, Banks, Building Societies, Press and Media and worst of all, Bank(B/S) owned Estate Agents . . . . .

that have 'manufactured' this almighty Housing/Credit Bubble, by playing on human inane Greed and Vanity!

This has happened in Westernised Countries Globally all @ the same time.

We should be Crapping ourselves as to what is going to happen to these countries and the UK as retribution - to balance things out!

What are their Motives for doing this???? :unsure:

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Hmmmmmmmmmm . . . .

I wouldn't gloat about the Bulls predicament if I were you!

Remember -

It was the Government, Landowners, Building Companies, Banks, Building Societies, Press and Media and worst of all, Bank(B/S) owned Estate Agents . . . . .

that have 'manufactured' this almighty Housing/Credit Bubble, by playing on human inane Greed and Vanity!

This has happened in Westernised Countries Globally all @ the same time.

We should be Crapping ourselves as to what is going to happen to these countries and the UK as retribution - to balance things out!

What are their Motives for doing this???? :unsure:

You are quite right and there is certainly no room for gloating. The Observer article may point to the misery in store for us.

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good post, though i agree a little with erranta too. they were THOROUGHLY induced into this by lenders and government. even the governments still trying to push SIPPS in an already priced out country ?? whats with that ??

they are victims. they had greed in their eye at the start and with samples on tv all day long of fastlane BTLs making a mint with ease. its no suprise joe public fell for it and helped gordy stave off a downturn from 2001 until today.

now its time to face that downturn and guess whos holding all the debt ?

the BTL !!!

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Dog, Us landlords take calculated risks in order to better ourselves. It seems that you are are looking for justification for still living with mummy & daddy.

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Dog, Us landlords take calculated risks in order to better ourselves. It seems that you are are looking for justification for still living with mummy & daddy.

Do you mean calculated risk or poorly researched gamble? Most landlords got into property because they saw it as a something for nothing business. For those who got out early enough, it probably has been. For those who left holding the baby, they are probably going lose a lot of money over the next 20 years.

I live in rented accomodation and the subject of risk is something I am very familiar with.

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Hmmmmmmmmmm . . . .

I wouldn't gloat about the Bulls predicament if I were you!

Remember -

It was the Government, Landowners, Building Companies, Banks, Building Societies, Press and Media and worst of all, Bank(B/S) owned Estate Agents . . . . .

that have 'manufactured' this almighty Housing/Credit Bubble, by playing on human inane Greed and Vanity!

This has happened in Westernised Countries Globally all @ the same time.

We should be Crapping ourselves as to what is going to happen to these countries and the UK as retribution - to balance things out!

What are their Motives for doing this???? :unsure:

Blimey Erranta. I find myself thinking 'good post'.

I guess we just disagree on the level of fallout after the coming recession.

I am looking forward to the Panorama prog on the BBC tonight BTW.

Maybe I should watch it whilst sat on the toilet...

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Maybe I should watch it whilst sat on the toilet...

Well, it will depend if you are an STR or Saver with 'liquid assets' or a 'hard-up' FTB/BTL gambler!

We all have to go through 'potty' training at some point in our lives! :rolleyes:

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the last broadsheet..

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/st...1577521,00.html

Okay..

Times, Mail.. all papers have now announced that there will be a housing crash...

why hasn't it happened yet...?

not everyone has heard this.. and while they are prepared to rock up and buy a place for an awful large amount of money..

okay.. going back to reading.. I hope that this won't be too messy..

But if i can turn my above average salary against a nice little flat and an easy to manage (AT MOST INTEREST RATES>> NOT JUST THE LOWEST IN HISTORY!!!) mortgage...

Then I will be cool..

I would never have felt safe with a massive mortgage against a small place reliant on low interest rates... when the loan is 25 years..

I would have felt like an ****

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good post, though i agree a little with erranta too. they were THOROUGHLY induced into this by lenders and government. even the governments still trying to push SIPPS in an already priced out country ?? whats with that ??

they are victims. they had greed in their eye at the start and with samples on tv all day long of fastlane BTLs making a mint with ease

Don't worry, they will be compensated for their own stupidity, they always are. Life is a one way bet for them and if something goes wrong then somebody else is to blame, especially the 'institutions', 'the big banks', the authorities, the powers that be, the government, all of the previous made people buy into the property blame game so they're all to blame.

As always, we'll end up paying for all these poor saps through margins on everything we buy and through our own savings, and through our technically insolvent pension funds that will be left holding all the bad debt. Thank God the FSA made all the pension funds cash out of equities at their lowest point and shift into 'safe' bonds with awful yields, as Lloyds TSB demostrate anyone will buy their dodgy securitized debt instruments, anything when they're in search of a yield regardless of the risks.

Edited by BuyingBear

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Lets face it, a quarter of million pounds for a pokey little flat in a congested development is ridiculous. The only people buying today are the highly suggestible types who never read newspapers.

Agreed on your main point, except the above quote. Highly suggestable types DO read newspapers, but believe all the spin in them too!

VP

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Well, it will depend if you are an STR or Saver with 'liquid assets' or a 'hard-up' FTB/BTL gambler!

We all have to go through 'potty' training at some point in our lives! :rolleyes:

TBH I think the Panorama prog will start out all scary and bearish with lots of dynamic 'questions' about the future of the economy.

It will then go all damp and will probably end up being a thinly masked VI programme for how the recession we all KNOW is coming can be 'avoided'

Overall, I expect to be disappointed by the programme rather than scared.

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Do you mean calculated risk or poorly researched gamble? Most landlords got into property because they saw it as a something for nothing business. For those who got out early enough, it probably has been. For those who left holding the baby, they are probably going lose a lot of money over the next 20 years.

I live in rented accomodation and the subject of risk is something I am very familiar with.

I did mean a calculated risk which I why I typed those exact words.There are still some properties selling BMV but that doesn't include new builds. My BTL is a 2 bed flat which I bought for £130k.......after £2k refurb'ing ,now £160K+. A 1 bed flat in the same building (part of a victorian villa) sold within a few weeks of being on the market and was valued st £150K. It may not have achieved the asking price but it had one less bedroom and an open planned kitchen in the lounge. My flat has the same sized lounge without a kitchen taking up half of it + a good sized kitchen.

Anyway, I don't see a crash coming and I certainly don't see 20% drops in most parts of the SE. This is my opinion and not my wish. If prices do drop I think we will all be better off,even those on the property ladder and most BTL landlords (those that have AVOIDED 2 bed new builds for £200K - 300K). That's the difference, this is my OPINION, not my wish. Can you say the same?

btw....appologies for the snide remark about you still living with your parents. I didn't think you did for a minute

:D

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I did mean a calculated risk which I why I typed those exact words.There are still some properties selling BMV but that doesn't include new builds. My BTL is a 2 bed flat which I bought for £130k.......after £2k refurb'ing ,now £160K+. A 1 bed flat in the same building (part of a victorian villa) sold within a few weeks of being on the market and was valued st £150K. It may not have achieved the asking price but it had one less bedroom and an open planned kitchen in the lounge. My flat has the same sized lounge without a kitchen taking up half of it + a good sized kitchen.

Anyway, I don't see a crash coming and I certainly don't see 20% drops in most parts of the SE. This is my opinion and not my wish. If prices do drop I think we will all be better off,even those on the property ladder and most BTL landlords (those that have AVOIDED 2 bed new builds for £200K - 300K). That's the difference, this is my OPINION, not my wish. Can you say the same?

btw....appologies for the snide remark about you still living with your parents. I didn't think you did for a minute

:D

Son

I have lived through two recessions both caused by labour and conservatives. If you cannot

see a recession on the horizon I advise you to get your eyes tested. If you worried about cost

D&A is the best. There is a free eye test token somewhere on the net.

:lol::lol::lol:

Edited by E Powell

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Another bitter angry post.

For BTLs like me who started 10 years ago( after the last recession) there is no problem. Our portfolios have doubled or even tripled in value. The result? In my mid thirties I have no mortgage(on a substantial residence), three rented props with LTV of 30% and plenty of cash/shares/pension etc.

Compared to my friends I'm small fry, they have made millions over the last 10 years. If there were a fall in property prices all it would mean is not changing the Ferrari every year.

Even if prices fell say 30% I would remain comfortable. If anything it would be an excellent point for me to increase my portfolio.

This is a situation you wasters still living with your mum will never enjoy.

Those who jumped on the bandwagon recentyl and haven't put a significant safety fund aside will get burnt. Who cares? This is actually a good thing because it is these props I will buy when they are repossed

:P:P

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Another bitter angry post.

For BTLs like me who started 10 years ago( after the last recession) there is no problem. Our portfolios have doubled or even tripled in value. The result? In my mid thirties I have no mortgage(on a substantial residence), three rented props with LTV of 30% and plenty of cash/shares/pension etc.

Compared to my friends I'm small fry, they have made millions over the last 10 years. If there were a fall in property prices all it would mean is not changing the Ferrari every year.

Even if prices fell say 30% I would remain comfortable. If anything it would be an excellent point for me to increase my portfolio.

This is a situation you wasters still living with your mum will never enjoy.

Those who jumped on the bandwagon recentyl and haven't put a significant safety fund aside will get burnt. Who cares? This is actually a good thing because it is these props I will buy when they are repossed

:P:P

Sorry I can't resist querying some of this.

they have made millions over the last 10 years. If there were a fall in property prices all it would mean is not changing the Ferrari every year.

For someone who has millions of pounds worth of property, a 10% fall would lose an awful lot more than the trade up costs for changing the Ferrari each year.

The result? In my mid thirties I have no mortgage(on a substantial residence), three rented props with LTV of 30% and plenty of cash/shares/pension etc.

Compared to my friends I'm small fry

Can you explain how you have managed to pay off a 'substantial' property inside 10 years by doing a few BTLs over a 10 year period? BTL doesn't pay that well even allowing for capital gain. I'm assuming a substantial property is something like a 4 or 5 bed detached property.

How many BTL properties did you buy back in 1995? (in your mid twenties?)

Are you a professional footballer or something? (Awooga United perhaps?)

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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Its very simple. I may only have 'a few' btls at the moment but I have traded in and out many times. During the 10 years I have bought properties for example at £80k and sold at £150k within 2 years. I have done this many times over 10 years. TBH not just with residential but commercial prop also. I bought a number of comm props at yields of 9% and sold 3 years later( late 2003) at yields as low as 6%. This was a very healthy profit ie a few 100k. Over 10 years this adds up. Some luck, some balls(which people here lack)

I'm not a footballer. I will be very honest and say when I was in my mid twenties my salary was circa £28k. It takes balls. I wish I had taken more risks, but my wife told me to play safe. If I'd been more adventurous, then rather than buying at £80k and selling at £150k I would have been buying at £500k and selling at £900k. The result would have been easy retirement at 40, with a house, boat, holiday home and 6 figure income. Many of my friends are in exactly that position. A downturn will just mean spending £5k on a holiday rather than £10k.

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Its very simple. I may only have 'a few' btls at the moment but I have traded in and out many times. During the 10 years I have bought properties for example at £80k and sold at £150k within 2 years. I have done this many times over 10 years. TBH not just with residential but commercial prop also. I bought a number of comm props at yields of 9% and sold 3 years later( late 2003) at yields as low as 6%. This was a very healthy profit ie a few 100k. Over 10 years this adds up. Some luck, some balls(which people here lack)

I'm not a footballer. I will be very honest and say when I was in my mid twenties my salary was circa £28k. It takes balls. I wish I had taken more risks, but my wife told me to play safe. If I'd been more adventurous, then rather than buying at £80k and selling at £150k I would have been buying at £500k and selling at £900k. The result would have been easy retirement at 40, with a house, boat, holiday home and 6 figure income. Many of my friends are in exactly that position. A downturn will just mean spending £5k on a holiday rather than £10k.

Normal people buy or sell houses but you 'trade in and out'. You also brag about your huge balls and wealth. Are you a real life Del Trotter or is it just a bad case of the mumps.

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Its very simple. I may only have 'a few' btls at the moment but I have traded in and out many times. During the 10 years I have bought properties for example at £80k and sold at £150k within 2 years. I have done this many times over 10 years. TBH not just with residential but commercial prop also. I bought a number of comm props at yields of 9% and sold 3 years later( late 2003) at yields as low as 6%. This was a very healthy profit ie a few 100k. Over 10 years this adds up. Some luck, some balls(which people here lack)

I'm not a footballer. I will be very honest and say when I was in my mid twenties my salary was circa £28k. It takes balls. I wish I had taken more risks, but my wife told me to play safe. If I'd been more adventurous, then rather than buying at £80k and selling at £150k I would have been buying at £500k and selling at £900k. The result would have been easy retirement at 40, with a house, boat, holiday home and 6 figure income. Many of my friends are in exactly that position. A downturn will just mean spending £5k on a holiday rather than £10k.

It sounds like you have done rather well from your 1995 £28k salary. I was on around £17k back then and bought my first house.

I'm impressed with how well you have done with that extra £11k.

Why do you write such arrogant posts as your first one?

If you were 10 years younger, could you have done today what you did in 1995?

I don't think it would be possible. I think this explains some of the bitterness you can sense amongst the younger posters on here.

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Normal people buy or sell houses but you 'trade in and out'. You also brag about your huge balls and wealth. Are you a real life Del Trotter or is it just a bad case of the mumps.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'normal'. People have traded in property/land since time began

:rolleyes:

I'm not bragging about my wealth I'm just telling you my situation as a 'amateur' property investor.

Am I a real life Del Trotter? I don't trade USSR made video cameras down Peckham market or live in a council estate if thats what you mean :huh:

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It sounds like you have done rather well from your 1995 £28k salary. I was on around £17k back then and bought my first house.

I'm impressed with how well you have done with that extra £11k.

Why do you write such arrogant posts as your first one?

If you were 10 years younger, could you have done today what you did in 1995?

I don't think it would be possible. I think this explains some of the bitterness you can sense amongst the younger posters on here.

You maybe missing the point. Its not what I may have done with the 'extra' £11k but its how much risk I was prepared to take. You may have taken none, I took some and others took loads. We each are now reaping the appropriate awards

If I were 10 years younger I wouldn't be investing in property now. Thats not to say there are not opportunities. People need to get off their arses, stop drawing endless nonsense graphs and get out there and see whats going on. There are always chances, you just need to find them. Having liquidated circa 60% of my portfolio in the last 18 months I am also trying to find these openings. They DO NOT include buying gold coins and burying them in the garden!!!!!!!! This is an option for paranoid retards. People made money during the last recession and they will do it again. This time it will be easier because we have a govt that likes to spend. The point is stop being bitter, stop drawing silly graphs that benefit no one and take control of your destiny

My post was no more arrogant than the thread starter(read it again)

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You maybe missing the point. Its not what I may have done with the 'extra' £11k but its how much risk I was prepared to take. You may have taken none, I took some and others took loads. We each are now reaping the appropriate awards

If I were 10 years younger I wouldn't be investing in property now. Thats not to say there are not opportunities. People need to get off their arses, stop drawing endless nonsense graphs and get out there and see whats going on. There are always chances, you just need to find them. Having liquidated circa 60% of my portfolio in the last 18 months I am also trying to find these openings. They DO NOT include buying gold coins and burying them in the garden!!!!!!!! This is an option for paranoid retards. People made money during the last recession and they will do it again. This time it will be easier because we have a govt that likes to spend. The point is stop being bitter, stop drawing silly graphs that benefit no one and take control of your destiny

My post was no more arrogant than the thread starter(read it again)

Fair enough...

I agree with your comments about the gold coins and the graphs BTW.

(For those that don't agree, most metal detectors don't work well against gold, so make sure you keep plenty of copies of the map....)

Edited by Without_a_Paddle

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You maybe missing the point. Its not what I may have done with the 'extra' £11k but its how much risk I was prepared to take. You may have taken none, I took some and others took loads. We each are now reaping the appropriate awards

The point is stop being bitter, stop drawing silly graphs that benefit no one and take control of your destiny

My post was no more arrogant than the thread starter(read it again)

From my perspective.......You show the one dimensional thinking of someone blinded by their own success (like a singingpig?):

You proclaim that hard work and ability have got you where you are today. Yet you are quick to trumpet, when prodded, how much perceived wealth you have, and how easy it was to get.

While encouraging others to boldly go where no idiot has gone before, will you be taking as much risk now and for the next few years, as you did during the boom?

This inconsistency does not bother me because I am aware of the circumstances which got you where you are today. Your success can be traced back to a date when you entered the property market at the right time.

Destiny? Your journey is still unfolding along a path you havent even come to terms with yet.

I think that secretly you know that you have been mostly lucky......We, on the other hand, understand why.

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You maybe missing the point. Its not what I may have done with the 'extra' £11k but its how much risk I was prepared to take. You may have taken none, I took some and others took loads. We each are now reaping the appropriate awards

If I were 10 years younger I wouldn't be investing in property now. Thats not to say there are not opportunities. People need to get off their arses, stop drawing endless nonsense graphs and get out there and see whats going on. There are always chances, you just need to find them. Having liquidated circa 60% of my portfolio in the last 18 months I am also trying to find these openings. They DO NOT include buying gold coins and burying them in the garden!!!!!!!! This is an option for paranoid retards. People made money during the last recession and they will do it again. This time it will be easier because we have a govt that likes to spend. The point is stop being bitter, stop drawing silly graphs that benefit no one and take control of your destiny

My post was no more arrogant than the thread starter(read it again)

To some extent I agree with you. Often a downturn in any market is a very good time to buy if the assets are below market value or you find a distressed seller. But... if gold is currently rising (which it is) then why is buying gold such a bad thing? In a falling property market then gold may be a better bet than property, at least for those who don't have enough experience in such a poor market to know what they should be buying.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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