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Bus Fares To Rise As Cuts Loom 10% Increase In Fares, 10% Cut In Services

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http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/bus_fares_to_rise_as_cuts_loom_1_3208229

BUS fares could increase by 10 per cent and services slashed by a tenth as a result of planned cuts to Government subsidies, one of Sheffield’s two leading operators has warned.

MPs on the House of Commons’ Transport Select Committee heard national funding for concessionary fares is likely to be reduced by as much as £102 million from £1 billion a year.

This is in addition to reductions in council-subsidised bus services and a 20 per cent cut from 2012/13 in the Bus Service Operators’ Grant, which rebates bus operators for fuel duty.

In its evidence to the select committee, Stagecoach said the total subsidy cuts amount to between £254m and £441m per year, which equates to between seven and 13 per cent of the entire turnover of the bus industry.

This is enough to wipe out the profit margins of many operators and will inevitably lead to fare hikes and service cuts, it is claimed.

Stagecoach, run by entrepreneur Brian Souter, who recently visited Sheffield to launch extra services, told MPs: “A general rule of thumb would suggest a 10 per cent cut in public funding would necessitate a 10 per cent increase in fares, coupled with a 10 per cent cut in services and would result in a 10 per cent loss in passengers.”

Yet another private industry hooked on public sector subsidy. It would appear that this is lost on this entrepreneur who's entire profit margin it seems depends on taxpayer cash? Too harsh?

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10% is the square-root of ****** all compared to the 50% increase in fuel costs for most commuters who don't have a choice.

Bus and train fares already cost far more per passenger mile than a private car. Think 40p/mile instead of 15p, and no major economies of scale from travelling in groups.

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Yes bus travel is not really more fuel efficient transport than personal cars. In studies done in Chicago and Dallas it was found the fuel use per passenger mile travelled was 31 mpg for the year in their bus systems.

31 mpg is better than the average fuel economy of the American auto fleet.. but there are many cars available for sale which are more fuel efficient than that. And as Dorkins said with private cars you can add passengers, so a 30mpg car becomes 60mpg in passenger terms.

Electrified public transport however becomes useful for avoiding fuel usage were the fuel to get scarce. Trolleys, subways, above ground electric rail.

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http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/bus_fares_to_rise_as_cuts_loom_1_3208229

Yet another private industry hooked on public sector subsidy. It would appear that this is lost on this entrepreneur who's entire profit margin it seems depends on taxpayer cash? Too harsh?

If this is really the case then I suggest the government takes over his business and runs it entirely itself for the benefit of the tax payers.

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The buses/trains need to be privatised and taken over by government.

The cost of mass transport should be kept low for people.

People need more money in their pockets, not less. A 10 year old could work this out.

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The buses/trains need to be privatised and taken over by government.

The cost of mass transport should be kept low for people.

People need more money in their pockets, not less. A 10 year old could work this out.

That would mean diverting taxes away from bailouts for parasitic banks and non-productive financial

services. The die has been cast for us. Apart from the odd war or future banking bailouts the government

has to be prudent.

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Bus and train fares already cost far more per passenger mile than a private car. Think 40p/mile instead of 15p, and no major economies of scale from travelling in groups.

You're falling into the trap of believing that the only running cost of a car is fuel. You need to add in (for most car owners, in descending order of cost) depreciation, insurance, maintenance, parking and road tax to that 15p figure.

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Yes, dont be fooled on the hideous costs involved in daring to own your own transport in the UK PLC in 2011, and example of working out running costs are HERE

An example ( somewhat dated):

Car Renault Clio 1.2 (2001)

Petrol Running Costs

Cost per mile (p/mile)= Litres put in x 81p / number of miles ( 81p per litre - remember those days?)

Annual Running Cost (£) = Cost per mile x Average mileage /100

For a Renault Clio

Cost per mile = 40 x 81 / 400 = 8.1p per mile

Annual Running Cost = 8.1p x 12,000 / 100 = £972

Annual Running Cost = Your annual insurance bill

Cost per mile = insurance bill / annual car mileage / 100

For a Renault Clio

Annual Running Cost = £350 (2 years no claims)

Cost per mile = £350 / 12,000 x 100 = 2.9p

Running Cost so far = 11p/mile or £1320 a year

--

Annual Running Cost = Your annual service bill

Cost per mile = service bill / annual car mileage / 100

For a Renault Clio

Annual Running Cost = £250 (authorized dealer)

Cost per mile = £250 / 12,000 x 100 = 2.1p

Running Cost so far = 13.1p/mile or £1570 a year

--

Annual Running Cost = Car tax bill

Cost per mile = tax bill / annual car mileage / 100

For a Renault Clio

Annual Running Cost = £100 (authorized dealer)

Cost per mile = £100 / 12,000 x 100 = 0.8p

Running Cost so far = 13.9p/mile or £1670 a year

--

Annual Running Cost = Total of all items bought for car

Cost per mile = Total cost / annual car mileage x 100

For a Renault Clio

Annual Running Cost = £179

1 can of car engine oil = £10

2 bottles washer fluid = £8

1 replacement headlight bulb = £6

2 new car tyres = £120

1 new washer blade = £10

1 new car hubcap = £12

1 bottle car polish = £8

1 bottle car shampoo = £5

Cost per mile = £179 / 12,000 x 100 = 1.5p

Running Cost so far = 15.4p/mile or £1849 a year

--

Annual Depreciation Cost = (Value when bought - Current value) / Years

Cost per mile = Depreciation / annual car mileage x 100

For a Renault Clio

Annual Running Cost = (£5500 - £3000) / 3 = £833

Cost per mile = £833 / 12,000 x 100 = 7p

Running Cost so far = 20.9p/mile or £2503 a year

And that was a good few years ago ( at least 6-7 I would guess looking the fuel prices) , Love the comment at the end too :

"So there you have it! To run a Renault Clio costs just over £2500 pounds a year, or £208 a month. So the running costs aren't quite as bad as mortgage payments, but they are still pretty significant.." :lol:

I dont own a car anymore out of principle, I wonder how much the up to date running costs will be using the above formula? :huh:

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Yes, dont be fooled on the hideous costs involved in daring to own your own transport in the UK PLC in 2011, and example of working out running costs are HERE

An example ( somewhat dated):

Car Renault Clio 1.2 (2001)

And that was a good few years ago ( at least 6-7 I would guess looking the fuel prices) , Love the comment at the end too :

"So there you have it! To run a Renault Clio costs just over £2500 pounds a year, or £208 a month. So the running costs aren't quite as bad as mortgage payments, but they are still pretty significant.." :lol:

I dont own a car anymore out of principle, I wonder how much the up to date running costs will be using the above formula? :huh:

i recon having a work van plus a car for many years that for an average mile driver you get no change out of 100 quid a week to keep a motor running, thats an average type vehicle, its actually not much better if you get yourself an older type small vehicle, the extra repairs eat into any depreciation saving. i buy 1 year old vehicles and keep them for 2 years, i find this to be the most cost affective way, ive tried every other way.

ive had old vans paid 1k for and mot comes round they need 1k of work or blow up on you and just get scrapped, unless your a mechanic they realy aint worth on average keeping though you can get lucky. the costs of diesel/insurance/fuel is the same maintenance/repairs quite often average out at same costs as depreciation. pay cash for a 1 year old car is definetly the way to go. then every 2 years as the warranty runs out add 3-4k to trade in for another 1 year old car. lease hire sucks big time.

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You're falling into the trap of believing that the only running cost of a car is fuel. You need to add in (for most car owners, in descending order of cost) depreciation, insurance, maintenance, parking and road tax to that 15p figure.

True, but in terms of marginal costs for people who already own a car (i.e. the vast majority of households outside of London), public transport is far more expensive. That means there is no point in keeping a car just for occasional use (e.g. supermarket shopping, weekend trips away). If you own one, you might as well use it all the time and stay off public transport altogether. No wonder the roads are so busy.

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Agreed. For owners of cars aged new to five years, the biggest single outlay will be depreciation, and only a small proportion of that is determined by mileage (in other words, a typical five year-old mass production car with 80k miles on it is only slightly cheaper than one with 30k: age is the biggest determining factor). For owners of cars five years and older, the biggest single outlay may be fuel, but even then the fixed costs (insurance, tax and maintenance) together will make any saving on fuel by doing some journeys on public transport virtually insignificant: even more so if more than one person is travelling. The only way this is going to change is if public transport is made virtually free.

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Yes, dont be fooled on the hideous costs involved in daring to own your own transport in the UK PLC in 2011,...

You may also find it useful to quickly plug in a few numbers into my Free Online Fuel Consumption Calculator to work out TAX, MPG, VAT, Carbon footprint, Litres, Gallons, fuel cost per mile and total true cost per mile and more... :).

...Yet another private industry hooked on public sector subsidy. It would appear that this is lost on this entrepreneur who's entire profit margin it seems depends on taxpayer cash? Too harsh?

Agree +1, maggots.

Edited by DarkHorseWaits

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http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/bus_fares_to_rise_as_cuts_loom_1_3208229

Yet another private industry hooked on public sector subsidy. It would appear that this is lost on this entrepreneur who's entire profit margin it seems depends on taxpayer cash? Too harsh?

Not harsh, simply the reality of the market as many would say - as the theory goes, any cut in government subsidies is good, so the company has to raise prices/cut costs/cut services or go out of business, nothing unusual. If the demand is there, if not this company, someone else will fulfil it and make a profit. Nothing to worry about, so the theory goes.

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Dropping your speed from 80mph to 70mph will reduce fuel consumption by 20% (give or take 5% depending on the car).

Personally I'm glad I dont own a massive suv like a Range Rover or Q7. To fill one of them up once a week at todays price of £1.40/l equates to £7500 in fuel a year! :lol::lol::lol:

I'm still flabbergahsted as to how on earth people out there afford to run all these massive cars. I like to think I earn well, and I would hate to pay any more than I already do to run my car. I seem to see massive SUVs and thirsty prestige cars everywhere - where the hell do these people get this money from??

For reference I drive a 57 plate Kia Proceed. Lovely car and the trip computer since I've owned (bought at 7,500 miles) it reckons I've got an average of 48mpg.

Still I would never by a car that new ever again. I'm keeping this one till it dies. Even then I've got 4 years of warranty left :D

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Yes, dont be fooled on the hideous costs involved in daring to own your own transport in the UK PLC in 2011, and example of working out running costs are HERE

An example ( somewhat dated):

Car Renault Clio 1.2 (2001)

And that was a good few years ago ( at least 6-7 I would guess looking the fuel prices) , Love the comment at the end too :

"So there you have it! To run a Renault Clio costs just over £2500 pounds a year, or £208 a month. So the running costs aren't quite as bad as mortgage payments, but they are still pretty significant.." :lol:

I dont own a car anymore out of principle, I wonder how much the up to date running costs will be using the above formula? :huh:

You make it sound as if these are all government imposed costs. What % of the cost is tax? If it's high, you have a point. If it's not, then the rest of the expense is due to market forces in private business, so what are you complaining about?

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You make it sound as if these are all government imposed costs. What % of the cost is tax? If it's high, you have a point. If it's not, then the rest of the expense is due to market forces in private business, so what are you complaining about?

Well, two thirds of the cost of fuel is tax, all of the road tax/motor vehicle licence is tax, one sixth of most other things is tax in the form of VAT, most parking charges are a tax imposed by the local authority, insurance would probably be a lot less as it cost has to be inflated due to legislation. So a lot is tax.

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Well, two thirds of the cost of fuel is tax, all of the road tax/motor vehicle licence is tax, one sixth of most other things is tax in the form of VAT, most parking charges are a tax imposed by the local authority, insurance would probably be a lot less as it cost has to be inflated due to legislation. So a lot is tax.

You've got a point with fuel, although it is still extremely cheap taking all costs into account. Road tax is very little in comparison to other costs, and I doubt anything else would be much cheaper if government disappeared tomorrow - you'd be paying for roads and infrastructure for a start, insurance would still be there and I would argue more expensive due to deregulation of driving. Now that's all fair enough, but to claim that driving would be significantly cheaper with no government - I very much doubt it.

Edited by shipbuilder

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Here's the thing - I don't have any problem with less government, quite the opposite in fact. But while there are a few people on this site that have very developed and logical views on why more of an anarchic system would be better and how it would work, I feel many others simply parrot the 'less government is better' line without really thinking about what it might mean.

In this example of public transport and driving, let's start with public transport in rural areas. Not profitable=won't exist. So either it is expensive or non-existant and everyone has cars - how will that affect who can afford to live in rural areas and hence house prices? Would trains be profitable? Road privatisation - apart from being charged per mile, would all roads and road signs look the same or would 'branding' lead to differences? Would competition lead to two or more roads for one route? How would this affect other things? Again, what would be the effect on rural areas? With no laws for safety, no environmental legislation and a legal system based on claims and compensation, what would costs for car companies and insurance companies be? Many effects of privatisation would be positive, but many negative. Unfortunately utopian views always concentrate on the positive.

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In this example of public transport and driving, let's start with public transport in rural areas. Not profitable=won't exist. So either it is expensive or non-existant and everyone has cars - how will that affect who can afford to live in rural areas and hence house prices?

The question is why should these rural areas exist? Through Siberia and even Western Russia there are completely abandoned towns, when the reason for the towns existance and founding ceases they simply all leave the town and raze it to the ground upon departure. I passed some errie towns north of Sochi and near Irkutsk. Just piles and piles of wood and rusted stuff.

In that why spend all that time and effort in keeping rural areas (except for the farmers) alive when they should be razed to the ground and the people move on to pastures new.

For example bolton and Manchester, the factories are gone, all you've got is public sector and pseudo public sector, why keep it there and spend all the money on maintaining something pointless. Why not move the people on where there are job and nuke the city from space?

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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