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Ash4781

Punch Taverns

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Looks like punch taverns will be split into managed and leased with thousands of pubs sold over years. The disposals seem to be staggered but presumably if unviable they could become housing development sites?

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This has been on the cards for ages, Spirt becomming punch managed was never a great move although it did allow them to re org and sell off the old spirt group HO.

I can see punch managed going and being sold in chunks to M&B, JDW etc as the managed way of working has never really been the punch remit.

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They are doing it as they are £3b in debt.

£3 billion.

Who lent them that money and what did they use it for?

Greene King which is probably the strongest of the pub co's has been cherry picking Punch's estate with cash offers for about 2 years.

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They are doing it as they are £3b in debt.

£3 billion.

Who lent them that money and what did they use it for?

PubCos are a national scandal. Basically, they used the combination of the brewery tie (=secure revenue that can be hiked at will), plus cheap credit and of course general property inflation to build up gigantic chains of pubs with borrowed money. Landlords have hence been squeezed dry with a huge rate of bankruptcy; and now the massively over-leveraged pubcos are collapsing.

But don't worry, I'm sure those at the top will say sorry and return their renumeration, having realised that their activities have added zero value to thew economy, but been instrumental in demolishing British pub life whilst leading to multiple bankruptcies and suicides.

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PubCos are a national scandal. Basically, they used the combination of the brewery tie (=secure revenue that can be hiked at will), plus cheap credit and of course general property inflation to build up gigantic chains of pubs with borrowed money. Landlords have hence been squeezed dry with a huge rate of bankruptcy; and now the massively over-leveraged pubcos are collapsing.

But don't worry, I'm sure those at the top will say sorry and return their renumeration, having realised that their activities have added zero value to thew economy, but been instrumental in demolishing British pub life whilst leading to multiple bankruptcies and suicides.

That is just the thing.

Hopefully independent landlords will now be able to buy up the pubs - sell decent beer and make a good living out of it.

Around me (Cambridgeshire) it is the independent pubs that are thriving and the chains (Wetherspoons apart) that are going out of business.

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Looks like punch taverns will be split into managed and leased with thousands of pubs sold over years. The disposals seem to be staggered but presumably if unviable they could become housing development sites?

The split is new, but the selloffs aren't. Punch has been struggling since the 'credit crunch' and has been a more-or-less forced seller. I have a few squid in a fund that takes advantage of Punch's plight, by backing publicans to buy out their leases (and freeholds) from Punch at distressed prices.

I expect the split is designed to help the managed stuff thrive, without the weight of property+debt on it.

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PubCos are a national scandal. Basically, they used the combination of the brewery tie (=secure revenue that can be hiked at will), plus cheap credit and of course general property inflation to build up gigantic chains of pubs with borrowed money. Landlords have hence been squeezed dry with a huge rate of bankruptcy; and now the massively over-leveraged pubcos are collapsing.

word

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The split is new, but the selloffs aren't. Punch has been struggling since the 'credit crunch' and has been a more-or-less forced seller. I have a few squid in a fund that takes advantage of Punch's plight, by backing publicans to buy out their leases (and freeholds) from Punch at distressed prices.

Have you got any details, please? That's exactly the kind of thing that I'd put a few quid into as well - anything to poke the large corporates in the eye!

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Have you got any details, please? That's exactly the kind of thing that I'd put a few quid into as well - anything to poke the large corporates in the eye!

It's a VCT investment (and a small part of my VCT portfolio). Some funds concentrate on asset-backed businesses, and picking up ex-punch pubs is one line of business. It's mostly popular amongst limited life VCTs, but some evergreens have it. Among current new offers, Downing is traditionally active in this area.

Check the current offers at the discount broker sites: (Hargreaves Lansdown, Clubfinance, Bestinvest, Allenbridge, etc). And hurry if you want a tax break this tax year!

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This sector has been struggling for many years as the pub declines as an institution.Much of the change is demographic with people drinking less in pubs and more at home.It's really another area where the supermarkets have wrought havoc.So the business model is to persuade some poor dupe to put his/her savings into the "ingoings" and stock, typically £20-£40k with the promise of earning a living as a publican.

In practise the incumbent quickly discovers that the rent etc,combined with the requirement to sell tied products at a far higher rate than the free market can buy at makes it a job where they typically earn £2 an hour.If by any chance they do good food and build up trade the pub owners raises the rent to take that profit too.Now they seem to be running out of dupes.

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This sector has been struggling for many years as the pub declines as an institution.Much of the change is demographic with people drinking less in pubs and more at home.It's really another area where the supermarkets have wrought havoc.So the business model is to persuade some poor dupe to put his/her savings into the "ingoings" and stock, typically £20-£40k with the promise of earning a living as a publican.

In practise the incumbent quickly discovers that the rent etc,combined with the requirement to sell tied products at a far higher rate than the free market can buy at makes it a job where they typically earn £2 an hour.If by any chance they do good food and build up trade the pub owners raises the rent to take that profit too.Now they seem to be running out of dupes.

Slash and burn business at its finest.

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Check the current offers at the discount broker sites: (Hargreaves Lansdown, Clubfinance, Bestinvest, Allenbridge, etc). And hurry if you want a tax break this tax year!

Thanks for the info, I'll check that out tonight.

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This sector has been struggling for many years as the pub declines as an institution.Much of the change is demographic with people drinking less in pubs and more at home.It's really another area where the supermarkets have wrought havoc.So the business model is to persuade some poor dupe to put his/her savings into the "ingoings" and stock, typically £20-£40k with the promise of earning a living as a publican.

In practise the incumbent quickly discovers that the rent etc,combined with the requirement to sell tied products at a far higher rate than the free market can buy at makes it a job where they typically earn £2 an hour.If by any chance they do good food and build up trade the pub owners raises the rent to take that profit too.Now they seem to be running out of dupes.

My moron of a brother took on a Punch tenancy last April despite all my warnings. The business was viable in terms of making a moderate living but Punch make you lose. They seem to have been able to put his rent up by 70% after 4 months despite a written contract stating no rent rises for 12 months. Also an inordinate amount of penalty fees for made up breaches, non existent Punch services, imaginary repairs. Modern day Robber barons.

Anyway it cost him £25K and 6 months of his life. Fools and their money..... :(

Edited by Kurt Barlow

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My moron of a brother took on a Punch tenancy last April despite all my warnings. The business was viable in terms of making a moderate living but Punch make you lose. They seem to have been able to put his rent up by 70% after 4 months despite a written contract stating no rent rises for 12 months. Also an inordinate amount of penalty fees for made up breaches, non existent Punch services, imaginary repairs. Modern day Robber barons.

Anyway it cost him £25K and 6 months of his life. Fools and their money..... :(

Maybe not a total fool, maybe was conned.......a fixed rate deal that is not fixed, plenty like that around. ;)

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My moron of a brother took on a Punch tenancy last April despite all my warnings. The business was viable in terms of making a moderate living but Punch make you lose. They seem to have been able to put his rent up by 70% after 4 months despite a written contract stating no rent rises for 12 months. Also an inordinate amount of penalty fees for made up breaches, non existent Punch services, imaginary repairs. Modern day Robber barons.

Anyway it cost him £25K and 6 months of his life. Fools and their money..... :(

A good friend of mine worked for them for a few years until recently and he said that the supply of suckers was running dry.It used to be that people got made redundant and they'd blow it on trying to be a Landlord-'How hard can it be?''money for old rope''I think the lifestyle will suit me' etc etc.

I think the spate of closures over the last few years has brought the reality home to a lot of people that running pubs isn't an automatic win.

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A good friend of mine worked for them for a few years until recently and he said that the supply of suckers was running dry.It used to be that people got made redundant and they'd blow it on trying to be a Landlord-'How hard can it be?''money for old rope''I think the lifestyle will suit me' etc etc.

I think the spate of closures over the last few years has brought the reality home to a lot of people that running pubs isn't an automatic win.

My Richardhead of a brother sold a business and decided to plough the proceeds into a Punch tenancy taking the company spin hook,line and sinker. I tried to dissuade him, being reaosnably well informed having worked fro GK for a couple of years. I did suggest he perhaps park the money (PB, High interest account) and go and get a year or twos in trade employed work experience and then make a decision.

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My Richardhead of a brother sold a business and decided to plough the proceeds into a Punch tenancy taking the company spin hook,line and sinker. I tried to dissuade him, being reaosnably well informed having worked fro GK for a couple of years. I did suggest he perhaps park the money (PB, High interest account) and go and get a year or twos in trade employed work experience and then make a decision.

I do think the pub trade works on the 'I've seen you coming' principle to mop up redundancy, inheritance, lottery monies.

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My moron of a brother took on a Punch tenancy last April despite all my warnings. The business was viable in terms of making a moderate living but Punch make you lose. They seem to have been able to put his rent up by 70% after 4 months despite a written contract stating no rent rises for 12 months. Also an inordinate amount of penalty fees for made up breaches, non existent Punch services, imaginary repairs. Modern day Robber barons.

Anyway it cost him £25K and 6 months of his life. Fools and their money..... :(

I was speaking to an ex-landlord a couple of months ago...The rents start off moderately reasonable, which entices people in..As soon as they hear you're doing well and turning things around, they hoick up the rents to unreasonable levels, then the landlord merry-go-round starts...

A lot of the buildings that these pubs sit in, are incredibly valuable, especially if they convert them to housing...Moreover, they usually have large car parks, so there's room for more building...

In the end though, they're cutting their nose to spite their face, but I spose they don't care.

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So the crafty supermarkets rinse out the pubs with cut price booze for the boom in home consumption & then step in and purchase the carcass of the doomed pub swiftly turning it into a branch of their convinience store chain stocking booze fags & pizzas, pies n sarnies?

That's a great business model!

I stopped going to pubs after the smoking ban was introduced it killed it for me paying £3 odd a pint to stand outside in the cold all night. Pubs are finished these days.

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I do think the pub trade works on the 'I've seen you coming' principle to mop up redundancy, inheritance, lottery monies.

Yes, I read that it was good way of recycling squaddie's redundancy pay-offs back into the economy.

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  • 276 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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