silver surfer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 What makes you think 1900 was a normal point in time? Just because it was a longish time ago, that doesn't make it a legitimate point of reference. People in 1900 worked much longer hours and lived in a society with much greater income inequality than pre-industrial Britain. The working conditions of Victorian Britain were themselves a bubble caused by rapid technological growth, rapid population growth, and the theft of common land by the elite. I doubt we are likely to see those conditions repeated any time soon. Wanna bet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 These days it's more like: Polish class: factory workers, untrained, unskilled, bin men postmen, manual workers. (Actually the majority in this country). Working class: anyone with a job paying less than £60,000 p/a Leisure class: anyone good at using the benefit system - similar (or better) income to the working class but without the hard work; public sector non-jobbers etc. Middle class: someone with a job paying more than £60,000 p/a who bought their main home in the last century. Upper class: Landowners, aristocracy. The Fulfords! It's actually much more straightforward than that: If you don't especially care or it's never occured to you to know what class you, are you are middle class. If you have thought about it, it bothers you, and you think you are middle class, you are almost certainly working class; however if you also think someone wearing a posh suit, carrying a briefcase and travelling 1st class on the train is upper class, you are clearly working class. If you have a hereditary title you are upper class. If someone else pays tax so you can live and this is a temporary or medical issue, then see above. If that condition turns out to be hereditary whereas the associated medical condition is not, then you now fail to have any class at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I woke up today to the reality that our houses aren't worth what I thought they were Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Had to laugh out loud at the £40k public sector worker railing at a Conservative minister about the injustices of a progressive income tax policy, the left's raison d'etre. She said that her tax/NI bill was greater than the sum of two people's contribution each of whom earn half her salary. Priceless! If only Willetts had said: You're right, I'd love to slash income tax rates for higher earners. Happy now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric pebble Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm not sure that's right. Things were not as peachy in the early-mid 2000s as the media liked to make out. For example, graduate unemployment was a problem way before 2008, there were newspaper reports of hundreds of applicants per job long before that. Yes, people were spending a lot, but apart from a select few jobs they weren't raking it in. For people on low-median incomes, wages were not really keeping pace with inflation. This crisis has very deep roots, which is why the incessant talk of recovery has been so absurd. Not one of the fundamental problems - youth unemployment, trade imbalances, an oversized financial sector, high house prices, high taxes, high levels of debt - have been addressed. PRECISELY RIGHT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) very interesting programme, missed it last night and just watched it on iPlayer. ... the 40k "local government worker" (who sounded illiterate) - wtf does she do? And there's 3 kids. Oh cry me a river. .... the posty who said it was all 'ideological cuts' ... the tw@t with the upturned collars who is being made redundant and worked in 'financial services' ... but has to move back into his house that he's rented out (poor him). ... the recruitment woman who hadn't had a holiday in 7 years ... the woman who had 5 kids (FIVE) who was complaining about their child benefit being cut (here's a hint - don't have so many f*cking kids. Me and my other half have 2 (no 2 was a bit of a surprise) and we cut our cloth according to our means! We both work and get f*ck all tax credits etc - because we WORK. We get f*ck all. We've not had a holiday ever since no.2 was born 4 years ago). I did like the "What we are dealing with are the consequences of a 10-year house price boom...and living beyond our means" line. Spot on in my opinion although glossed over by the Labour moron who kept on droning on about cuts being an 'unfair attack on women'. Tossers. ...spot on ...good summary.... Edited March 16, 2011 by South Lorne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_FaFa!_* Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm not sure that's right. Things were not as peachy in the early-mid 2000s as the media liked to make out. For example, graduate unemployment was a problem way before 2008, there were newspaper reports of hundreds of applicants per job long before that. Yes, people were spending a lot, but apart from a select few jobs they weren't raking it in. For people on low-median incomes, wages were not really keeping pace with inflation. This crisis has very deep roots, which is why the incessant talk of recovery has been so absurd. Not one of the fundamental problems - youth unemployment, trade imbalances, an oversized financial sector, high house prices, high taxes, high levels of debt - have been addressed. +1 As has been said many times on this site, credit expanded purchasing power, rather than productivity. We've actually been in an economic downturn since at least end of the dotcom boom. You could make an argument to say since the 70s, credit has just been papering over the cracks. Problem is people in this country (and Europe generally) won't accept this, so long term I think we are going the way of Argentina (100 years ago, in the top 5 economies in the world) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver surfer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I think we are going the way of Argentina (100 years ago, in the top 5 economies in the world) True story. At the start of the 20th Century Harrods was the pre-eminent store in the world, they wanted to open a second branch, but where? They drew up a short list and gradually whittled it down to the fastest growing, most vigorous city in the world, the one place that could never fail and would guarantee future growth should the sun ever set on the British Empire. So they chose.Buenos Aries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Monk Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Working class- your name is on your uniform. Middle class- your name is on the door. Upper class- your name is on the building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver surfer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Working class- your name is on your uniform. Middle class- your name is on the door. Upper class- your name is on the building. Brilliant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Wanna bet? Sure. If you're right, in 20 years' time you can have my daily bowl of rice while we are both doing 16 hour days in a Chinese-owned trainer factory in Doncaster. If I'm right, in 20 years' time you can cook me a roast dinner in my affordable home counties semi while our stay-at-home wives take care of the little ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver surfer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Sure. If you're right, in 20 years' time you can have my daily bowl of rice while we are both doing 16 hour days in a Chinese-owned trainer factory in Doncaster. If I'm right, in 20 years' time you can cook me a roast dinner in my affordable home counties semi while our stay-at-home wives take care of the little ones. Brilliant! Edited March 16, 2011 by silver surfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantnrave Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 True story. At the start of the 20th Century Harrods was the pre-eminent store in the world, they wanted to open a second branch, but where? They drew up a short list and gradually whittled it down to the fastest growing, most vigorous city in the world, the one place that could never fail and would guarantee future growth should the sun ever set on the British Empire. So they chose.Buenos Aries. That is a radical move - some place no-one has ever heard of. I would have understood more if they had chosen, say, Buenos Aires... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiges Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Real class doesn't ostentatiously display wealth. A saying that's stuck with me sums it up: Money talks, wealth whispers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric pebble Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Sure. If you're right, in 20 years' time you can have my daily bowl of rice while we are both doing 16 hour days in a Chinese-owned trainer factory in Doncaster. If I'm right, in 20 years' time you can cook me a roast dinner in my affordable home counties semi while our stay-at-home wives take care of the little ones. Excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITSmidge Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Ah, now you're getting to the real question of what is class. Socialists see it as a material wealth thing, and that's what we've seen increasingly over the past 15 years. The reality is that class can never be bought. Posh and Becks upper class? Any millionaire footballer upper class? The Blairs? The Browns? Nope, none of them, they're all just rich gypsies as far as I'm concerned. Real class doesn't ostentatiously display wealth. Immediately brought this to mind: "When he was a little boy, Sam Vimes had thought that the very rich ate off gold plates and lived in marble houses. He'd learned something new: the very very rich could afford to be poor. Sybil Ramkin lived in the kind of poverty that was only available to the very rich, a poverty approached from the other side. Women who were merely well-off saved up and bought dresses made of silk edged with lace and pearls, but Lady Ramkin was so rich she could afford to stomp around the place in rubber boots and a tweed skirt that had belonged to her mother. She was so rich she could afford to live on biscuits and cheese sandwiches. She was so rich she lived in three rooms in a thirty-four-roomed mansion; the rest of them were full of very expensive and very old furniture, covered in dust sheets." - Men at Arms, Terry Pratchett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric pebble Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Not that straight forward I guess.. The cost of living is increasing relative to earnings, and if Mervyn is to be believed will continue to do so for a while longer yet. We were living through a credit bubble which provided "free" wealth and increased standard of living. We are now seeing the reversal of this process on top of the effect of mal-investment over the same period. The government may well acknowledge that our standard of living is dropping, but what can they do? the only thing that will provide greater wealth is greater productivity. The government can't really provide this.. businesses and people have to.. the government can only give them the freedom and the tools to do so. Anything else is simply musical deck chairs. Very good analysis. 10/10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steagle Colbeagle Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 71% saying they're middle class? Wasn't that long ago everyone claimed they were working class. Seems like New Labours greastest (non)achievement was convincing a wedge of society that they are middle class - apparently the defintion now is anyone in "alarm clock Britain" - so anyone who gets up for work in the morning! Wouldn't be a problem if it was just a word but on Newsnight they all seemed to think they were entitled to a middle class lifestyle - a housing boom and profligerate public sector has worked a treat in middle classing everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybernoid Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Immediately brought this to mind: "When he was a little boy, Sam Vimes had thought that the very rich ate off gold plates and lived in marble houses. He'd learned something new: the very very rich could afford to be poor. Sybil Ramkin lived in the kind of poverty that was only available to the very rich, a poverty approached from the other side. Women who were merely well-off saved up and bought dresses made of silk edged with lace and pearls, but Lady Ramkin was so rich she could afford to stomp around the place in rubber boots and a tweed skirt that had belonged to her mother. She was so rich she could afford to live on biscuits and cheese sandwiches. She was so rich she lived in three rooms in a thirty-four-roomed mansion; the rest of them were full of very expensive and very old furniture, covered in dust sheets." - Men at Arms, Terry Pratchett 'you know why the rich are so weird? Because they can afford to be' From batman film 1989! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Wouldn't be a problem if it was just a word but on Newsnight they all seemed to think they were entitled to a middle class lifestyle - a housing boom and profligerate public sector has worked a treat in middle classing everyone. It might help if people looked at their quality of life before the price of their house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 If you've got a new build flat bought at the peak on a IO mortgage, own a Audi TT, and have 3 or more credit cards with £3000 outstanding on each. THEN you are middle class. Erm and I wish anyone in that position the best of luck. They'll need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 If you've got a new build flat bought at the peak on a IO mortgage, own a Audi TT, and have 3 or more credit cards with £3000 outstanding on each. THEN you are middle class. Erm and I wish anyone in that position the best of luck. They'll need it. thats a minority, ask how many people thought they were middle class in the 70s, there will likely be a similar percentage thinking they are middle class by the time this is over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okaycuckoo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Ah, now you're getting to the real question of what is class. Socialists see it as a material wealth thing, and that's what we've seen increasingly over the past 15 years. The reality is that class can never be bought. Posh and Becks upper class? Any millionaire footballer upper class? The Blairs? The Browns? Nope, none of them, they're all just rich gypsies as far as I'm concerned. Real class doesn't ostentatiously display wealth. Try the Alan Clarke diaries from the Thatcher years - he tells a story from a posh do he attended in an Italian villa, everyone in black tie. A family wanders in, wearing cricket jumpers, and everyone thinks, "What are these proles doing here?" Then Clarke finds out they're the billionaire hosts, and reflects on how the truly wealthy don't need to show face. Another story he tells is talking to a landowner in Scotland who boasts of selling up and "trousering" a fortune - Clarke wonders why boasters don't balance their gains and their debts. I think he was stuck with alot of inheritance tax on his father's death and knew how hard it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 71% saying they're middle class? Wasn't that long ago everyone claimed they were working class. Seems like New Labours greastest (non)achievement was convincing a wedge of society that they are middle class - apparently the defintion now is anyone in "alarm clock Britain" - so anyone who gets up for work in the morning! Wouldn't be a problem if it was just a word but on Newsnight they all seemed to think they were entitled to a middle class lifestyle - a housing boom and profligerate public sector has worked a treat in middle classing everyone. The mass of the populace thinks itself 'middle class', without realising that the majority have been levelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The mass of the populace thinks itself 'middle class', without realising that the majority have been levelled. What is class anyway?....I would say whatever class is it overlaps......how about being in a class of my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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