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06-03-2006 At The Races focused on the end-product, not in-running betting

Matthew Imi, Chief Executive of the race broadcaster, said there is no commercial upside for the firm to alter the pictures' time delay. Imi was responding to speculation on the Betfair forum where exchange punters hoped the time delay between SIS and At The Races could be reduced from the usual two-second gap.

"We're more concerned with better picture quality. ATR viewers get very high-quality pictures with no picture break-up or pixelation," Imi told the Racing Post.

"In any case, even at its most pronounced the difference between betting shop pictures and ATR is two seconds, so this is a non-issue. We certainly don't have thousands of customers ringing up every day to complain about it."

The Racing Post's Matt Williams said time delay problems are a major cause for concern for the majority of exchange punters.

"I'm sure in-running markets could be helped by levelling the playing field," he said. "Why would anybody want their pockets picked by punters privileged to a faster feed?"

"Some exchange bettors carry on punting regardless, whereas other, greener, in-running punters are oblivious to the speed differences."

"It's ATR's prerogative to go for picture quality ahead of speed, but I'd like to see some acknowledgement from them, in terms of a daily reminder, that their pictures are delayed by however many seconds;" he added.

Betfair's Director of Field Marketing, Josh Apiafi, said it would be better for everybody if the delay wasn't so great.

"In a perfect world, ATR pictures would be as fast as SIS."

However, he added: "As long as punters know what the time delay equates to on the Flat and over jumps, we don't see it as a problem. And in-running players tend to be more experienced than non in-running punters."

Few weeks ago, Betfair extended the in-play time delays on Spanish soccer games from 5 to 8 seconds after that the firm's research shown that some Spanish TV stations provide pictures delayed by up to five seconds.

Betfair always stated that transmissions described as live by some broadcasters may actually be delayed, but decided to take action to ensure that both backers and layers are protected when betting in-play on Spanish soccer markets.

The article you have quoted has nothing to do with the dates when ATR Extra pictures were so much faster.

I first noticed how fast it was in August 2006 and that continued until February 2007. If you think it didn't last at least 6 months you must have just joined the party too late

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The article you have quoted has nothing to do with the dates when ATR Extra pictures were so much faster.

I first noticed how fast it was in August 2006 and that continued until February 2007. If you think it didn't last at least 6 months you must have just joined the party too late

Sorry but the article in question was after the ATR Extra episode has been concluded. Matt Williams challenged ATR Chief Mathew Imi after the pictures had been slowed down. Therefore the fact that your ATR Extra pictures were quicker well after the event is surprising to say the least :rolleyes:

This also refers to ATR Extra. Maybe I am wrong, Matt Williams and the Racing Post are wrong and you are right :blink:

TRADING POST - Bridging the TV gap

By Matt Williams 02 MARCH 2006

THE time delays between SIS and ATR (other channels come into the argument, too) are a hindrance, and it would be a major boost for in-running markets if we were all punting on a level playing field with regard to the live television feed.

Yesterday the delay between the two channels mentioned was negligible, and it will be interesting to see if it's repeated today - let's hope it's not a one-off.

Edited by HeathMan
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Sorry but the article in question was after the ATR Extra episode has been concluded. Matt Williams challenged ATR Chief Mathew Imi after the pictures had been slowed down. Therefore the fact that your ATR Extra pictures were quicker well after the event is surprising to say the least :rolleyes:

That article is dated March 2006. If the article is after ATR Extra was so much quicker then the date is wrong.

Look....

You are obviously a betting man. What price will you give me that if you post a thread in the Betfair horse racing forum in the next hour asking when ATR Extra supplied those faster pictures someone agrees with my dates?

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That article is dated March 2006. If the article is after ATR Extra was so much quicker then the date is wrong.

Look....

You are obviously a betting man. What price will you give me that if you post a thread in the Betfair horse racing forum in the next hour asking when ATR Extra supplied those faster pictures someone agrees with my dates?

I would say it is 999/1 that you are correct. Why not post something and give HPC a nice plug as well :)

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Can someone explain this for me.

Say a retailer in the UK makes £1m profit in 1 year. Director's are british, living in Britain, trading in britain, working in Britain.

How exactly are the profit's off shored?

Once the profits have been off shored, is a dividend then paid in such a country, and the UK director's have their british bank accounts credited with the dividend, minus any tax if they are a higher rate payer? :huh: I don't quite understand how they get away with it.

My company had profits of around 50k last year and the CT bill was £12k

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Everyday they offer in running markets on British horseracing. The markets are not suspended until the runners have passed the winning post on the two satellite channels Attheraces and Racing UK. Unfortunately for punters betting watching these pictures the transmission is deliberately delayed by the broadcasters. This means that punters are betting on a race that has actually finished!

That's completely untrue. The market is suspended at the correct time and it is made very clear that the pictures are delayed.

I was one of the first members of Betfair and have met a couple of the founders. Amongst the proper betting public those guys are highly thought of. The main bookmakers had been ripping us off for years.

Also, they have moved to Gibraltar partly to avoid rumored added regulation that the Tories wanted to bring in at the behest of their 'friends' in the established older bookmaking firms.

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Can someone explain this for me.

Say a retailer in the UK makes £1m profit in 1 year. Director's are british, living in Britain, trading in britain, working in Britain.

How exactly are the profit's off shored?

Transfer pricing a simple example is this (though it is often more complex and obscfucated on purpose so the taxman can't figure it out) Whereby if you make £1 million quid in the UK, you have a subsidary somewhere like Ireland which does an intercompany transaction a sale or something on paper but not real to the UK company meaning the UK company's profits of 1 million are no longer 1 million. Transfering the profit to Ireland of 1 million. Instead of paying 27% corporation tax they pay 12.5% corporation tax.

£270000

Vs

£125000

It can be massively complex and the salaries for such experts can easily hit 100K.

Once the profits have been off shored, is a dividend then paid in such a country, and the UK director's have their british bank accounts credited with the dividend, minus any tax if they are a higher rate payer? :huh: I don't quite understand how they get away with it.

A great many dodges around this, foreign dividends often have double tax treaties. Or simply they don't tell the government about it.... or they pull an Al Fayed. I.e. they move the money in as living expenses and not as capital, though this was closed a while ago.

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So what?

Well we were discussing Betfair and there is an issue with the fairness of one of their markets. I am sure that many people will be quite amazed that they facilitate and profit from blatantly unfair wagering. Betfair is also a publicly traded company so the fact that their IT is a bit of a disaster and their markets can be viewed as a swindle is of interest to a few.

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Maybe there is a sub plot to destroy this country from within? :ph34r:

I've always half-suspected that Gordon Brown was a Soviet sleeper agent left over from the cold war.

Everyday they offer in running markets on British horseracing. The markets are not suspended until the runners have passed the winning post on the two satellite channels Attheraces and Racing UK. Unfortunately for punters betting watching these pictures the transmission is deliberately delayed by the broadcasters. This means that punters are betting on a race that has actually finished!

the-sting.jpg

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If Betdaq eventually build the critical liquidity levels needed to trade on tight back/lay prices then there will be an exodus from BF.

I've used the site for years and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread when it first started - now i'd happily see it fold.

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Well we were discussing Betfair and there is an issue with the fairness of one of their markets. I am sure that many people will be quite amazed that they facilitate and profit from blatantly unfair wagering. Betfair is also a publicly traded company so the fact that their IT is a bit of a disaster and their markets can be viewed as a swindle is of interest to a few.

BIR is a complete mug's game unless you're at the event, or view it as a bit of fun. If you really think that what you're seeing on a TV is real-time and you won't get screwed by others who know more then you are a complete and utter moron. It's like day trading algorithms on dial-up.

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My company had profits of around 50k last year and the CT bill was £12k

As we are part of the EU, any EU company can trade in any country without respect to borders. You choose to register your company in the UK, thus it is a UK company and pay UK CT. If you paid the £300 or so it costs to register a company you could start a new one registered elsewhere. You need not live in that country, or have any business connections to it. It is simply a matter of where you register. If you registered in Ireland your company would make its tax returns to the Irish authorities where you would pay a lot less CT. Since your company is Irish, it need make no returns to the UK authorities who would have no idea it even exists.

Your residency in the UK would still subject you to personal taxation but you have the choice when to pay dividends if at all. You could for example retain the profit in the company and have it buy your house (at a good price). You would then rent your house back from your company (you effectively pay the rent to yourself).

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As we are part of the EU, any EU company can trade in any country without respect to borders. You choose to register your company in the UK, thus it is a UK company and pay UK CT. If you paid the £300 or so it costs to register a company you could start a new one registered elsewhere. You need not live in that country, or have any business connections to it. It is simply a matter of where you register. If you registered in Ireland your company would make its tax returns to the Irish authorities where you would pay a lot less CT. Since your company is Irish, it need make no returns to the UK authorities who would have no idea it even exists.

Your residency in the UK would still subject you to personal taxation but you have the choice when to pay dividends if at all. You could for example retain the profit in the company and have it buy your house (at a good price). You would then rent your house back from your company (you effectively pay the rent to yourself).

[/quote

Hate to contradict but artificially setting up companies can not be used to divert income. Companies are also taxed where they have a physical presence-i.e as a branch.A company can also be deemed to be resident in a country if it is managed and controlled in that country.

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And people say Bankers don't earn their money - a company that is worth £9 a share, flogged for £15 in October - priceless skills.

Betfair's a classic example of a company which had a good business model which was innovative and made money and then decided it wanted to do what everyone else was doing (poker, casino games etc) bringing down the exchange model with it. Hopefully they can turn it around but I fear being a PLC will make things worse.

I'd thought betting companies which based themselves abroad for tax reasons couldn't advertise here and then I realised that it was one of those pieces of "self regulation", where a bunch of politicians and betting bosses got together, slapped each other on the backs and decided it waas easier for everyone if they made up their own rules - they only get round them anyway?! (well as long as there aren;t proper laws)

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And people say Bankers don't earn their money - a company that is worth £9 a share, flogged for £15 in October - priceless skills.

How they got away with the share valuation was indeed a masterstroke. If any analyst had asked them how much of their liquidity was actually from punters effectively underwritten by Betfair ie. FindAlay, then I don't think they would have floated. What Betfair do is use deposits from average punters to finance credit lines of their own "in house punters" hence why the "cut out the middleman" advertising campaign was so ridiculous.

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I tend to think that the core business is a fairly secure one, they have a secure monopoly (for right or wrong) and unlike alot of internet companies they actually make decent money. What I wonder is whether a company which is a bit niche can justify the marketing spend it has (loads of Cricket and football at the grounds, Man U and Barcelona "partners", tv adverts etc.)

How they got away with the IPO is a mystery although you question like with all gambling companies whethers there's regualtory risk (partygaming shares crashed after the US banned online gambling), think there's rumours about a clampdown in the budget towards betting companies going off-shore.

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I tend to think that the core business is a fairly secure one, they have a secure monopoly (for right or wrong) and unlike alot of internet companies they actually make decent money. What I wonder is whether a company which is a bit niche can justify the marketing spend it has (loads of Cricket and football at the grounds, Man U and Barcelona "partners", tv adverts etc.)

How they got away with the IPO is a mystery although you question like with all gambling companies whethers there's regualtory risk (partygaming shares crashed after the US banned online gambling), think there's rumours about a clampdown in the budget towards betting companies going off-shore.

There isn't that much money in running an exchange. BF are not that profitable in their core business, and other big bookies could run an exchange (the technology is available to do so). They choose not to.

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There isn't that much money in running an exchange. BF are not that profitable in their core business, and other big bookies could run an exchange (the technology is available to do so). They choose not to.

That's interesting statement about the technology as Betfair claimed pre-float that their software was so advanced that it was nigh on impossible to match. The point about the horseracing in running is that Betfair are getting a massive chunk of the turnover, much more than their normal rake. How it works is that their favoured clients place bets on races that have effectively finished so they cannot lose 99% of the time. In return for this "no lose scenario" theose same clients pay Betfair a much higher rake. If Betfair where to match the bets themselves directly people would say that the house is playing it's own tables!

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and other big bookies could run an exchange (the technology is available to do so). They choose not to.

Why should they? If they still have punters throwing money on 20% over rounds and the ability to ban winners or those who hit weak lines.

BF irritate me as much as the next guy and I stopped using them, when they move the AH commission from 1% to 5%, years ago. But one thing you can say about them, they typically offer much better value than the traditional UK books.

But with Pinny and the more reputable US facing, the Asian books and exchanges, I have no idea why people still play the likes of fred, lads and even Wills..

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Why should they? If they still have punters throwing money on 20% over rounds and the ability to ban winners or those who hit weak lines.

BF irritate me as much as the next guy and I stopped using them, when they move the AH commission from 1% to 5%, years ago. But one thing you can say about them, they typically offer much better value than the traditional UK books.

But with Pinny and the more reputable US facing, the Asian books and exchanges, I have no idea why people still play the likes of fred, lads and even Wills..

I find that there is no liquidity (horse racing) on Betfair in the morning. Also, in certain races there is better value (each way, best odds guaranteed, paying out on disqualified "winners") with the traditional bookies. The only problem is keeping under the radar and trying to get a bet on.

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There isn't that much money in running an exchange. BF are not that profitable in their core business, and other big bookies could run an exchange (the technology is available to do so). They choose not to.

They've been ticking along at profits of around £30m-40m a year which isn't too shabby, most of which comes from the exchange. There's an argument they are close to saturation in GB&I, but if they relax laws in the US they could make alot. I think there's more barriers to entry to run an exchange than just tech costs - plenty have come and gone - Betdaq still exists but it must be losing money.

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Why should they? If they still have punters throwing money on 20% over rounds and the ability to ban winners or those who hit weak lines.

BF irritate me as much as the next guy and I stopped using them, when they move the AH commission from 1% to 5%, years ago. But one thing you can say about them, they typically offer much better value than the traditional UK books.

But with Pinny and the more reputable US facing, the Asian books and exchanges, I have no idea why people still play the likes of fred, lads and even Wills..

Agreed, they realise that they can't use their brand and effectively offer two prices, the exchange generally being the better, if they then became an exchange they would'nt be able to use the above advantages. The thing is most punters aren't that price sensitive so "special offers" (extra places .etc.) are more attractive than competitive prices - although the special offers aren't normally as special as they seem. Sort of goes to my opinion that the betting industry is much more about marketing than bookmaking - bookies are scared to stand a bet these days (unless they know it's a complete mug whose placing it)

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