PopGun Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I heard he also said the bonus culture should remain. Now, Im all in favour of performance bonus, but in the public sector, they get a bonus for implementing policy...which is their job anyway. for example, a manager gets a bonus for getting 50% of his staff passed a DIVERSITY standard...now, to get that waste of space award, the PS has had to set up training, created facilities, a course, an exam, a badge and a new payscale for passees. All 100% waste of time and money...yet, there will be a bonus. then there is the "lets shoehorn our computer system y into the x department"..it doesnt work for the staff ( I have experience of this), it doesnt work for the clients (allocations of disability equipment in the case I know), but, it was forced in, new forms filled, new files created, many more managers, training courses etc etc...Yet, the managers who got this installed....BONUSES all round. Government answer to any problem is more government...then they bonus themselves for acheiving the inevitable, and their CVS get more and more impressive as the waste mounts up. I'm not aware of anyone in the public sector (outside the banks) who recieves bonuses. Unless of course they work at exec level, and as far as they're concerned I'm with you bashers on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1AK Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I'm not saying that the state is better, just that there is always something of the utopian dream about people's personal visions - I don't like the state, so getting rid of it must automatically be better for all. It's simplistic and relies on the idea that one large organisation (the public sector), is somehow staffed by a different type of human that an other (private sector). They are both run by people - large corporations look and feel very much like mini totalitarian states and do everything in their power to monopolise, Actually, you've got it exactly backwards. Governments are keen to legislate to STOP monopolies because they believe that one entity having a monopoly position is bad for the market. You have to believe that 'public employees' are a better class, to believe that they are not subject to the same flaw. The single, massive, difference between the public sector and the private sector is not the mentality or quality of people that work for it; it is the fact that private companies (in a competitive market) have to compete and innovate to survive. There are many good public sector organisations, however unlike the private sector the bad ones will not close and be replaced by better competitors. This is why encouraging competition between public bodies is beneficial. A head teacher's mind is focused by the risk of closing if parents can choose to send children elsewhere. A regimental commander asks more of his troops if he is measured against his peers and replaced if found wanting. Truely exceptional managers, and staff, wouldn't need this 'motivation', however most of us aren't that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoma Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, you've got it exactly backwards. +1 Public sector employees do not have to worry about things like competition, collapsing sales, economic cycles, customer loyalty etc. If a public employee is 'stressed', as they seem to be so often judging by the sickie-stats, it is probably because they are hoist by their own petard ie trapped in a bureaucratic spaghetti junction entirely of their own making. Many public sector administrators seem to exist purely to deal with the paper emitted by other public sector administrators. Anyone seen Brazil? Add to that the perverse incentive of cutting budgets the second anyone gets efficient and you've got a slow motion disaster on your hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 +1 Public sector employees do not have to worry about things like competition, collapsing sales, economic cycles, customer loyalty etc. If a public employee is 'stressed', as they seem to be so often judging by the sickie-stats, it is probably because they are hoist by their own petard ie trapped in a bureaucratic spaghetti junction entirely of their own making. Many public sector administrators seem to exist purely to deal with the paper emitted by other public sector administrators. Anyone seen Brazil? Add to that the perverse incentive of cutting budgets the second anyone gets efficient and you've got a slow motion disaster on your hands. More clap trap. There's plenty of provider competition (Community interest companies are already directly competing in markets with private sector providers). How many jobs have gone due to funding withdrawals, Schools closing, wards/hospitals closing, service reprioritisation, corporate restructuring, council/trust merging, privatisation etc etc? I’m sure a lot of public sector workers have had it cushy compared to some of their direct private sector counterparts. However to continually claim that every public sector worker resides in some job for life, unpressured, unsackable cushy La La land smacks of silly, misinformed, out of date, biased, and discrediting ignorance. Any business owner worth their salt knows that the last three/four years of private/public sector imbalance was a blip, which will revert back to its long term trend. If your business is sound, you have nothing to worry about after all. However if even this seems like an unsatisfactory scenario, and you can’t stand living and working in such a socialised country any longer, you’re perfectly free to move somewhere else that’s more in line with your political/economic beliefs. (and no I don’t mean Somalia). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoma Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Any business owner worth their salt knows that the last three/four years of private/public sector imbalance was a blip, which will revert back to its long term trend. If your business is sound, you have nothing to worry about after all. However if even this seems like an unsatisfactory scenario, and you can’t stand living and working in such a socialised country any longer, you’re perfectly free to move somewhere else that’s more in line with your political/economic beliefs. (and no I don’t mean Somalia). You're just trolling now, mate. How about you go and build your magic perpetual motion socialist progressive all-will-win-prizes utopia somewhere else? I don't mean Somalia either. It's been through enough sh*t already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malkin Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Particularly hating Paul Pindar: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-84/episode-1 Media hysteria about overpaid council chiefs, unaffordable public sector pensions and the need to cut the ‘deficit’ were put firmly into context by a sympathetic Channel 4 Dispatches entitled Britain's Secret Fat Cats: It outlined the numerous multi-million-pound contract deals that are being paid to private outsourcing companies across the UK. It is our money that accounts for practically half of their turnover – and of their executives’ pay packages – with very little in the way of public accountability or scrutiny. They now account for £79 billion of state expenditure every year, a figure which will massively grow if the Government fulfils Cameron’s pledge to put nearly all state-run services out to contract. Financial journalist Ben Laurance showed how the big 3 - SERCO, CAPITA and G4S - have all given very upbeat assessments of their position in recent weeks. Reflecting the optimism that they showed before the election, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/supportservices/7318230/Capita-sees-contract-boost-after-election.html Paul Pindar, the chief executive of Capita was gleeful about the prospect of a public-spending squeeze. Unveiling the company’s annual report, he said ‘fiscal pressure on public spending’ is likely to ‘heighten the focus on outsourcing in the public sector in 2011’. Serco’s chief executive Chris Hyman oversaw a profits growth by a fifth last year, and the company reckons to have an order book of £16.5 billion. Tomorrow economist Will Hutton will publish his government-funded report Fair Pay In The Public Sector. Lets hope it will also focus on the fact that private companies are filling their boots at our expense. PFI / PPP's were just the beginning of the demise of the public sector. Paul Pindar, on the basis of the Dispatches programme, is earning somewhat more than twenty times the lowest paid employee. In 2008, his overall pay – including share options – was worth almost £10 million – more than 700 times the salary of low paid Serco employees in the film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, you've got it exactly backwards. Governments are keen to legislate to STOP monopolies because they believe that one entity having a monopoly position is bad for the market. You have to believe that 'public employees' are a better class, to believe that they are not subject to the same flaw. The single, massive, difference between the public sector and the private sector is not the mentality or quality of people that work for it; it is the fact that private companies (in a competitive market) have to compete and innovate to survive. There are many good public sector organisations, however unlike the private sector the bad ones will not close and be replaced by better competitors. This is why encouraging competition between public bodies is beneficial. A head teacher's mind is focused by the risk of closing if parents can choose to send children elsewhere. A regimental commander asks more of his troops if he is measured against his peers and replaced if found wanting. Truely exceptional managers, and staff, wouldn't need this 'motivation', however most of us aren't that good. Logic fail - you can't stop monpolies by making one super monopoly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Great. Congratulations you’ve identified a gap in the UK political spectrum. Maybe you could form some kind of political coalition with Tahmoa and start your own political party. Given how you both maintain that you’re always right, you’d have little problem convincing the over taxed (at gun point) electorate that your neo-liberal free-market policies would free them from the shackles of statist burden, by getting rid of all these unnecessary government services that you no one wants. Thus in turn freeing them to conduct their various enterprises in the only financial environment and society that can ever logically work. A £500 deposit for the next by-election is all that it would take to spring board yourselves to power, and sweep up the disaffected electorate. I mean how can you fail in something you believe in so much? I look forward to reading your manifesto. How bizarre. I've much better things to do with my time than try to join the ranks of those running other peoples lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Particularly hating Paul Pindar: http://www.channel4....es-84/episode-1 Media hysteria about overpaid council chiefs, unaffordable public sector pensions and the need to cut the 'deficit' were put firmly into context by a sympathetic Channel 4 Dispatches entitled Britain's Secret Fat Cats: It outlined the numerous multi-million-pound contract deals that are being paid to private outsourcing companies across the UK. It is our money that accounts for practically half of their turnover – and of their executives' pay packages – with very little in the way of public accountability or scrutiny. They now account for £79 billion of state expenditure every year, a figure which will massively grow if the Government fulfils Cameron's pledge to put nearly all state-run services out to contract. Financial journalist Ben Laurance showed how the big 3 - SERCO, CAPITA and G4S - have all given very upbeat assessments of their position in recent weeks. Reflecting the optimism that they showed before the election, http://www.telegraph...r-election.html Paul Pindar, the chief executive of Capita was gleeful about the prospect of a public-spending squeeze. Unveiling the company's annual report, he said 'fiscal pressure on public spending' is likely to 'heighten the focus on outsourcing in the public sector in 2011'. Serco's chief executive Chris Hyman oversaw a profits growth by a fifth last year, and the company reckons to have an order book of £16.5 billion. Tomorrow economist Will Hutton will publish his government-funded report Fair Pay In The Public Sector. Lets hope it will also focus on the fact that private companies are filling their boots at our expense. PFI / PPP's were just the beginning of the demise of the public sector. Paul Pindar, on the basis of the Dispatches programme, is earning somewhat more than twenty times the lowest paid employee. In 2008, his overall pay – including share options – was worth almost £10 million – more than 700 times the salary of low paid Serco employees in the film. While all the above is likely to be true, its not the fault of the private fat cats that they are able to bamboozle the useless public sector purchasing....if Serco and co are able to fully demonstrate their DIVERSITY Policies and no others can, then the PS can sign them off happy that all boxes ticked, bucks passed and savings made. The fact that no fracker gives a shite about seeing if real savings and value are gained is again, a fault of the procurers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipbuilder Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Actually, you've got it exactly backwards. Governments are keen to legislate to STOP monopolies because they believe that one entity having a monopoly position is bad for the market. You have to believe that 'public employees' are a better class, to believe that they are not subject to the same flaw. The single, massive, difference between the public sector and the private sector is not the mentality or quality of people that work for it; it is the fact that private companies (in a competitive market) have to compete and innovate to survive. There are many good public sector organisations, however unlike the private sector the bad ones will not close and be replaced by better competitors. This is why encouraging competition between public bodies is beneficial. A head teacher's mind is focused by the risk of closing if parents can choose to send children elsewhere. A regimental commander asks more of his troops if he is measured against his peers and replaced if found wanting. Truely exceptional managers, and staff, wouldn't need this 'motivation', however most of us aren't that good. You got the wrong end of the stick. My point was that competition or no competition, everything tends toward monopolies because it's what those at the top want, public or private sector irrelevant. Perhaps someone could confirm, for example, the number of car manufacturers compared to a few decades ago. Pretending that privatising everything will stop this tendency and that competition is the cure of all ills is utopian fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillotine Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Overheard on my local high street on Sunday... "Yes she is doing ever so well, she is with the Police Ski Team at the moment competing in Colorado". These cuts are just terrible, terrible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I saw the Dispatches programme and it was an eye-opener. These companies (Serco, Capita and G4?) are massive and into everything. There is still duplication and inefficiency, except being outsourced, it somebody else's problem and harder to sort out. I think a big problem is the inability of the poblic sector to screw down a deal. Their lives don't depend on it, so poor deals get done, with the pressure to get them done. Fair dos to the private sector negotiators, however, we see it with PFI contracts, the taxpayer usually gets screwed and the service improvement is always questionable. Worse still, if things go wrong the council/public sector has to sort it out. The other trend being that in time a cartel of preferred outsourcers emerges. The 'man' wins, the CEOs and board can pay themselves ever more obscene salaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoma Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I saw the Dispatches programme and it was an eye-opener. No no no, don't you see? If the left can demonstrate that getting the 'private sector' involved (read: de facto Quangos, with the associated ineptitude and outright corruption) creates even more of a mess, then it somehow makes huge conventional public sector waste permissible. Don't you dare try and go off message again. I repeat: Serco and the like are de facto public sector organisations. A private sector organisation is one which private individuals trade with by their own volition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) You're just trolling now, mate. How about you go and build your magic perpetual motion socialist progressive all-will-win-prizes utopia somewhere else? I don't mean Somalia either. It's been through enough sh*t already. wow, you post a teenage style strop about missunderstanding, prejudiced presumptions and 'projecting' and then respond the same in turn. You're one class act aren't you? However it always seems to allow the circumvention of any requirement to address the point. By the way, you're the one moaning about being over taxed supporting government non jobs (because that's were all your taxes go doesn't it? Interesting how you fail to mention money being wasted on illegal wars, banking support etc). So why not man up, stop being a victimised windbag and carry out that empty threat of voting with your feet?! What's holding you back, Stockholm Syndrome? There's always America (oh I forgot, the 'commies' are currently in charge). By the way, according to you and others, we already live in some perpetual motion socialist progressive all-will-win-prizes utopia. So why do I need to move? Edited March 16, 2011 by PopGun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 wow, you post a teenage style stroop about missunderstanding, prejudiced presumptions and 'projecting' and then respond the same in turn. You're one class act aren't you? However it always seems to allow the circumvention of any requirement to address the point. By the way, you're the one moaning about being over taxed supporting government non jobs (because that's were all your taxes go doesn't it? Interesting how you fail to mention money being wasted on illegal wars, banking support etc). So why not man up, stop being a victimised windbag and carry out that empty threat of voting with your feet?! What's holding you back, Stockholm Syndrome? There's always America (oh I forgot, the 'commies' are currently in charge). By the way, according to you and others, we already live in some perpetual motion socialist progressive all-will-win-prizes utopia. So why do I need to move? And its public sector that decides where to waste the money. They are out of control...corruption can go un-noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 How bizarre. I've much better things to do with my time than try to join the ranks of those running other peoples lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 You got the wrong end of the stick. My point was that competition or no competition, everything tends toward monopolies because it's what those at the top want, public or private sector irrelevant. Perhaps someone could confirm, for example, the number of car manufacturers compared to a few decades ago. Pretending that privatising everything will stop this tendency and that competition is the cure of all ills is utopian fantasy. +1 Besides, we need less commisioning, targets, league tables and other associated bureaucracy, not more. The right have seemed to have conveniently forgotten what caused/allowed Labour to overrun the public sector in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 And its public sector that decides where to waste the money. They are out of control...corruption can go un-noticed. and why is that? Oh yes I forgot you're not interested in the causes or reasons of topics you love to moan about. Besides whether you agree with cuts or not, these days of over spending will soon be over anyway. The only question is how much unneccesary pain we want to endure in the meantime. Either way the cycle will turn regardless. Do you stand on a long dry sandy beach, convinced the tide is never going to turn? Of course not. The era of excessive and compulsive public spending is over. We can still moan about it if we want, but moaning won't stop the cuts or speed them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoma Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 There's plenty of provider competition (Community interest companies are already directly competing in markets with private sector providers). I presume you work in the Public sector, considering your oh-so-fluent use of da lingo. How come you are posting during working hours? Shouldn't your IT staff have blocked this site? So you can maybe do some actual work? Or are you off with 'stress'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 and why is that? Oh yes I forgot you're not interested in the causes or reasons of topics you love to moan about. Besides whether you agree with cuts or not, these days of over spending will soon be over anyway. The only question is how much unneccesary pain we want to endure in the meantime. Either way the cycle will turn regardless. Do you stand on a long dry sandy beach, convinced the tide is never going to turn? Of course not. The era of excessive and compulsive public spending is over. We can still moan about it if we want, but moaning won't stop the cuts or speed them up. Im sorry the tide is turning and its causing pain. My usual point is there need not have been any pain if public sector was not used as a job creation scheme. Its now a growing monster.. i was shocked last Thursday how a totally useless arm of it is now POLICY...CURRENT POLICY...getting massive funding from here and the EU. Its like an unstoppable train with a dead driver slumped over the dead mans handle. they are on board and throwing passengers out the doors to cure the problem...meanwhile the train powers on and the buffers approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I presume you work in the Public sector, considering your oh-so-fluent use of da lingo. How come you are posting during working hours? Shouldn't your IT staff have blocked this site? So you can maybe do some actual work? Or are you off with 'stress'? Who's trolling now? Maybe I should start my own business instead, given how much spare time you and others seem to have. By the way I often run background scripts, which makes even typing this post a processor drag. Besides thanks to the Tories, IT have enough on their plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Im sorry the tide is turning and its causing pain. My usual point is there need not have been any pain if public sector was not used as a job creation scheme. Its now a growing monster.. i was shocked last Thursday how a totally useless arm of it is now POLICY...CURRENT POLICY...getting massive funding from here and the EU. Its like an unstoppable train with a dead driver slumped over the dead mans handle. they are on board and throwing passengers out the doors to cure the problem...meanwhile the train powers on and the buffers approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoma Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Who's trolling now? Maybe I should start my own business instead, given how much spare time you and others seem to have. By the way I often run background scripts, which makes even typing this post a processor drag. Besides thanks to the Tories, IT have enough on their plate. My business is just that. If I don't work, I don't get paid. Imagine that, if you can. Go on, do some public sector style blue sky thinking. It's great to know that when I do work and pay tax, the money goes to individuals like you so that you can sit and post over 3000 messages to this forum alone on a computer I pay for, at a desk I pay for, sitting in a chair I pay for, on broadband access I pay for, enjoying a heated office I pay for, and no doubt training courses at country houses I pay for. Bravo. And all I get in return is snarls from your curled little lip. Enjoy your little walled garden while it lasts. Edited March 16, 2011 by tahoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Does it baffle you that some of us have no desire to run other peoples lives? Oh and if you're in IT I realise why you're so angry. Edited March 16, 2011 by bogbrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I know..its hard to grasp...suggest you have a meeting or two with follow ups and focus groups to erase this thought from reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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