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FUKUSHIMA earthquake and tsunami thread and aftermath


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Who's trying to stop you? Freedom to say what you like includes the freedom for other people to dismiss it and / or laugh / sneer / ridicule it. I'm sick of people expecting to be given a soapbox and getting upset when no-one wants to listen.

I'll only refer to bogbrush who's the master troll in this thread as he purposefully attempts to increase the blood pressure of some of us: what's happening in this thread is not that someone doesn't want to listen (it's easily done by not reading the thread), but that someone wants to shut posters up. bogbrush is trying to apply a particularly hypocritical form of censorship by showering ridicule on the uninformed and mocking those informed for wasting their time.

There is a difference, I am sure you can see it.

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No. I am presenting the facts. Why don't you take a dose of reality?

Collection of facts like the Mainstream Media IS NOT DOING.

Go on, admit it - you wouldn't have seen that picture from above for another 3 hours on Sky, right?

WILL PEOPLE NOT POSTING FACTS OR EVIDENCE JUST DUMB OPINIONS AND INSULTS PLEASE GO AWAY?

Hey, lay off Scott will you?

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Well crocodiles can eat people. And they are sort of lizards. So lizards do rule the World.

FACT. END OFF. +1

THIS ^

don't you watch the news?

The last two man v crocodile battles in Oz have resulted in man getting away, all it takes is a poke in the eye, meanwhile crocodile steaks are still widely available biggrin.gif

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the third reactor looks Fu*ked, that will explain the black smoke. But I suppose I shouldn't believe my eye's

I believe this was the exact title of this morning's Japan Nuclear Department briefing to the Japanese Government.

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don't you watch the news?

The last two man v crocodile battles in Oz have resulted in man getting away, all it takes is a poke in the eye, meanwhile crocodile steaks are still widely available biggrin.gif

Aha. I have clearly not been keeping up to date with the Man vs Crocodile battles.

So lizards don't rule the World. Shame. I quite like them.

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This thread reminds me of the Mexico oil well threads, where the "only thing that can stop it gushing oil was a nuclear bomb", apparently.

As usual the irony is that there are many good contributions to this thread in terms of science. But unfortunately quite a few bad ones. The problem is for the intelligent but ignorant with little knowledge of basic nuclear physics (much of which was taught at A level when I was a lad) to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

And there, as in the pub debate, lies the internets greatest strength and greatest weakness, the fact that anyone can have a say, regardless of whether they know what they are talking about or not, and someone just looking for some simple facts to try to form an opinion has to search through posts of hyperbole and irrelevance as well as the pertinent.

OK, so FWIW, I'll give my opinions :

i) Once those outer buildings have exploded, it's hard to know exactly what's going on inside the reactors, because all the telemetry is wrecked. The Japanese have said as much.

ii) I don't know what I would do under similar circumstances. Keep pumping in water and risk explosion, more low level radiation leaks or let the thing melt down and hope it is contained as designed, given the fact that the containers have been subject to explosions/large earthquakes.

iii) I think it is highly unlikely that it will result in a large scale nuclear detonation, although there may be a small nuclear reaction if the worst comes to the worst. I certainly don't believe this will be on the scale of a nuclear weapon.

iv) I don't think building reactors in earthquake/Tsunami zones is a smart thing to do, although hindsight is a wonderful thing.

v) I do think Britain has some of the worlds most technically competent nuclear engineers in terms of decomissioning (Sellafield, Dounray). Hopefully we can help the Japanese learn from our experiences as they are going to need a lot of help sorting out these problems over the next few years, even if the situation resolves itself with the minimum of impact from now on.

Let's all keep our fingers crossed that this situation resolves itself in as benign a way as possible. I'm sure that's the outcome everyone wants.

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Will be? Based on what 'fact' and analysis? I think you 'dunno' a lot.

What are you basing these definite predictions on? Is your Hello Kitty lunchbox glowing in the dark or something?

like I said Im .........

not a dr .....not an expert ..just a beer drinker

just for the trolls entertainment

not even a definite prediction......... just my opinion

it was for your entertainment ...google is your friend..... knock your self out

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You know what the truth is now.

Yeah, I read this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/9948754

*

Contributor

profgerrythomas

14 March 2011 1:31PM

@phillipJFR

I totally agree - there has been a very small release thus far and this is not another Chernobyl

and this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/9948815

ProfPaddyRegan

14 March 2011 1:34PM

There seems a good summary so far from the new york times at

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?ref=asia

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Guys, I've got a serious question (so all the nutjobs: please Foxtrot Oscar):

If the plants operators have been pumping seawater into the reactor cores to cool them down for the last several days, where is all that seawater going? This is not covered in any of the MSM that I have read, but I assume that it's leaking/steaming away into the environment after spending some time in close contact with the radioactive core?

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Oh do settle down, if only people were asking questions that would be great. That's a lot different from a [email protected] session over who can get most apocalyptic.

Who appointed you referee? You don't like it you can read some other thread.

As for me, I can very well make up my mind as to whether this thread is of value or not without your help thank you. The only person turning this thread to trash with persistent trolling is you.

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iv) I don't think building reactors in earthquake/Tsunami zones is a smart thing to do, although hindsight is a wonderful thing.

But hindsight was not really required for this point - was it ?

Everyone knew this sort of thing would happen. I suppose they just planned to ensure the reactors would survive such an extreme event. However that is never going to be much more than a bit of hope.

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We're hearing about the situation in the reactors but what about spent fuel rods or new ones waiting to go in the reactor? I know that normally they'd be safely encased but who knows what might have happened during the tsunami to any that might have been in the 'handling' process?

If the plants operators have been pumping seawater into the reactor cores to cool them down for the last several days, where is all that seawater going? This is not covered in any of the MSM that I have read, but I assume that it's leaking/steaming away into the environment after spending some time in close contact with the radioactive core?
I was wondering that too. Clearly they couldn't trap the seawater into the closed loop cooling and power system, with condensing, as that must have been destroyed in the explosions. Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack
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Guys, I've got a serious question (so all the nutjobs: please Foxtrot Oscar):

If the plants operators have been pumping seawater into the reactor cores to cool them down for the last several days, where is all that seawater going? This is not covered in any of the MSM that I have read, but I assume that it's leaking/steaming away into the environment after spending some time in close contact with the radioactive core?

dont go swimming

9381013-large.jpg

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I'll only refer to bogbrush who's the master troll in this thread as he purposefully attempts to increase the blood pressure of some of us: what's happening in this thread is not that someone doesn't want to listen (it's easily done by not reading the thread), but that someone wants to shut posters up. bogbrush is trying to apply a particularly hypocritical form of censorship by showering ridicule on the uninformed and mocking those informed for wasting their time.

There is a difference, I am sure you can see it.

Well, it's hard to spot because just about every post on HPC raises my blood pressure one way or the other, but mocking the uninformed for holding strongly-held uninformed opinions is valid enough. Anyone who does that and turns out to be just as uninformed or randomly opinionated themselves simply ends up making themselves look like a fool.

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dont go swimming

9381013-large.jpg

That's what I thought.

So to put things very simply: these power plants are designed with closed loop cooling circuits, as the coolant quickly becomes radioactive.

At present we have an open-loop system, so a not-insignificant amount of radioactivity is being dumped.

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Isn't there something wrong with this diagram? If it's a boiling water reactor, where's the outlet for the steam to drive the turbine-driven generators?

broken in the earthquake..

You see, the weak points in this structure, which the experts seem to ignore, are clearly the interfaces between the different elements...Pipes in, pipes out.

All liable to damage if shaken very violently...which they were.

So, no matter how good the containment...there are holes in them at all stages...these are weak points.

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So, no matter how good the containment...there are holes in them at all stages...these are weak points.

And the ultimate impact of that will not be know for a while. We won't have a really good assessment of just how bad this was or wasn't until the dust has settled, both metaphorically and literally.

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You see, the weak points in this structure, which the experts seem to ignore, are clearly the interfaces between the different elements...Pipes in, pipes out.
But the whole power station is built as unified structure on a concrete 'raft', so that it all moves together, like a car or boat, rather than as bits trying to hold together, like a house or fence.
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Anyone who does that and turns out to be just as uninformed or randomly opinionated themselves simply ends up making themselves look like a fool.

The problem with that is that if you start mocking some people who express concern (each in their own way I admit), you provoke a reaction that usually leads to the opinionated and defensive behaviour you want to avoid. Or in other words, you create the situation you say you dislike. This is exactly what happened in this thread, with bogbrush's repeated and insistent mocking turning the thread into the sh*t it is becoming now.

Some (not you AFAIK) think that being the contrarian and dismissing threats is the odds on way to look really cool and smart on hpc. After so many fruitless tfh threads, it's a winner.

It leads to the systematic mocking of people who try to express their understanding of a situation out of concern. I don't see anything good or cool about that.

Edited by _w_
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And the ultimate impact of that will not be know for a while. We won't have a really good assessment of just how bad this was or wasn't until the dust has settled, both metaphorically and literally.

And even then .....!

but I guess that's your informed opinion

Edited by Tankus
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