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FUKUSHIMA earthquake and tsunami thread and aftermath


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I read through the Cherbobyl reports last night, there were two, the first blamed the operators, the second the reactor design as well. The reactor wasn't flat out, far from it, it was operating at TOO LOW a level. The test was to see if the turbines had enough spinning reserve power to keep the cooling going during a power failure. At the last minute, knowing the power was too low, they attempted to increase the power, unfortunately they got the reactor into an unstable operating point. This instability was something the operators were not aware of.

If this is the end of nuclear power for Japan, haven't they got an enormous geothermal resource?

Yes, thanks for that. Just read the wiki page, interesting stuff.

What I meant by "flat out" was that most of the control rods had been withdrawn.

I should have been more clearer.

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Its out of date jack

number 2 core has been uncovered

The bottom line is that there will be some low level of activation of the seawater, which will also be removed by the treatment facilities.The seawater will then be replaced over time with the “normal” cooling water

The reactor core will then be dismantled and transported to a processing facility, just like during a regular fuel change.

Fuel rods and the entire plant will be checked for potential damage. This will take about 4-5 years.

there will be no rods left , dunno how long that will take ? , there is no sea water

Edited by Tankus
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He is acting like a sheeple who doesn't like others asking questions.

A bit like your average overindebted house buyer who hates it when someone questions the common wisdom on house prices.

Oh do settle down, if only people were asking questions that would be great. That's a lot different from a [email protected] session over who can get most apocalyptic.

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Its out of date jack

number 2 core has been uncovered

there will be no rods left , dunno how long that will take ? , there is no sea water

ask bogbrush

I'm asking you, if that's ok. I don't know much about nuclear power plants and was wondering whether you could broaden your explanation to explain it to me in more detail.

Thanks!

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Professionally, I am a burger flipper. I note that there 'may' be meltdown in reactor 3 which means that there deifinitely is a meltdown and it will definitely melt through the containment vessel whcih is in any case definitely cracked because they can't know it isn't. All you loser sheeple who disagree should tune into N Korean TV and see what they say.

I'm cancelling the viagra and ordering iodine, because I'm already getting another hard-on thinking about it all.

Remember me, you read it here first.

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Professionally, I am a burger flipper. I note that there 'may' be meltdown in reactor 3 which means that there deifinitely is a meltdown and it will definitely melt through the containment vessel whcih is in any case definitely cracked because they can't know it isn't. All you loser sheeple who disagree should tune into N Korean TV and see what they say.

I'm cancelling the viagra and ordering iodine, because I'm already getting another hard-on thinking about it all.

Remember me, you read it here first.

Do you think you are at a self help group.

Edited by Scott Sando
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Its out of date jack

number 2 core has been uncovered

there will be no rods left , dunno how long that will take ? , there is no sea water

I don't have a clue who's actually right about how doomed we actually are, but aren't those event's already covered in this section?

"So the pressure was under control, as steam was vented. Now, if you keep boiling your pot, the problem is that the water level will keep falling and falling. The core is covered by several meters of water in order to allow for some time to pass (hours, days) before it gets exposed .Once the rods start to be exposed at the top, the exposed parts will reach the critical temperature of 2200 °C after about 45 minutes. This is when the first containment, the Zircaloy tube, would fail..

And this started to happen. The cooling could not be restored before there was some (very limited, but still) damage to the casing of some of the fuel. The nuclear material itself was still intact, but the surrounding Zircaloy shell had started melting. What happened now is that some of the byproducts of the uranium decay – radioactive Cesium and Iodine – started to mix with the steam. The big problem, uranium, was still under control, because the uranium oxide rods were good until 3000 °C. It is confirmed that a very small amount of Cesium and Iodine was measured in the steam that was released into the atmosphere.

It seems this was the “go signal” for a major plan B. The small amounts of Cesium that were measured told the operators that the first containment on one of the rods somewhere was about to give. The Plan A had been to restore one of the regular cooling systems to the core. Why that failed is unclear. One plausible explanation is that the tsunami also took away / polluted all the clean water needed for the regular cooling systems.

The water used in the cooling system is very clean, demineralized (like distilled) water. The reason to use pure water is the above mentioned activation by the neutrons from the Uranium: Pure water does not get activated much, so stays practically radioactive-free. Dirt or salt in the water will absorb the neutrons quicker, becoming more radioactive. This has no effect whatsoever on the core – it does not care what it is cooled by. But it makes life more difficult for the operators and mechanics when they have to deal with activated (i.e. slightly radioactive) water.

But Plan A had failed – cooling systems down or additional clean water unavailable – so Plan B came into effect. This is what it looks like happened:

In order to prevent a core meltdown, the operators started to use sea water to cool the core. I am not quite sure if they flooded our pressure cooker with it (the second containment), or if they flooded the third containment, immersing the pressure cooker. But that is not relevant for us.

The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is “liquid control rod”. Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core."

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How does that alter things?

Its like you boiling your kettle dry...except there isnt a fuse to stop the element burning out.

Of course, the main element here is shut down, but the decaying elements of bogbrushium and Injinium are still raising the temperature, hence they have poured seawaters unto them.

Edited by Bloo Loo
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not a dr .....not an expert ..just a beer drinker

just for the trolls entertainment

the reactor core looses its geometry ...... the fuel and inhibitor rods melt and slump together causing hotspots , within the slump , this start to heat at the bottom of the containment flask , dunno the melt point of steel but I dare say someone can google

there is no control from this point ....... just reactions to

Its not a nuclear explosion that's the worry , but an uncapped fire (which is what Chernobyl was )

The Japanese government have confirmed that this is a possibility , but the flask was designed to handle this in the event and keep containment ...the problem is the pressure , they may have to vent to stop a pressure or chemical explosion , anything that comes out of there is now lethal ....the japanese government states that this can be contained

its now never going to be dismantled ....but encased

Its now worse than 3 mile as there is no outer containment

Im not laughing ....... I seriously hope I'm full of shit ...... but its just how i see it

Edited by Tankus
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Don't know whether this has been posted yet. Makes for interesting reading:-

Brainy non hysterical analysis (possibly)

This Barry is rubbish - he does not even know his elementary math. 0.7 difference on logarithmic scale is a factor of 5, not 7.

10^0.7 = 5

He should be downgraded to an "expert" status and interviewed on BBC News Channel.

the difference between the 8.2 that the plants were built for and the 8.9 that happened is 7 times, not 0.7)

P.S. I can see it has been picked up in comments too. For a nuclear boffin it is like saying "zero deficit means no national debt" for the chancellor. Their brain should be hardwired to work on a log scale.

Edited by refusnik
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there will be no rods left , dunno how long that will take ? , there is no sea water

Will be? Based on what 'fact' and analysis? I think you 'dunno' a lot.

What are you basing these definite predictions on? Is your Hello Kitty lunchbox glowing in the dark or something?

Edited by happy_renting
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not a dr .....not an expert ..just a beer drinker

just for the trolls entertainment

the reactor core looses its geometry ...... the fuel and inhibitor rods melt and slump together causing hotspots , within the slump , this start to heat at the bottom of the containment flask , dunno the melt point of steel but I dare say someone can google

there is not control from this point ....... just react to

Its not an nuclear explosion that's the worry , but an uncapped fire (which is what Chernobyl was ) the Japanese government have confirmed that this is a possibility , but the flask was designed to handle this in the event and keep containment ...the problem is the pressure , they may have to vent to stop a pressure or chemical explosion , anything that comes out of there is now lethal ....the japanese government states that this can be contained

its now never going to be dismantled ....but encased

Its now worse than 3 mile as there is no outer containment

Im not laughing ....... I seriously hope I'm full of shit ...... but its just how i see it

Yeah... it doesn't seem good, I hope it is contained, but it's starting to look doubtful.

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so to sum the last twenty pages up...........

no one actually knows what's happening but.................

on one side we have people who think we aren't heading for Armageddon

on the other we have people who think a meltdown and massive radiation leak is already underway and being covered up, coincidentally these are the same people who think 9/11 was a massive conspiracy, the moon landing was fake and lizards rule the world

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Jack

I don't have a clue who's actually right about how doomed we actually are, but aren't those event's already covered in this section?

that was plan A it failed

they went to plan B

The plant came close to a core meltdown. Here is the worst-case scenario that was avoided: If the seawater could not have been used for treatment, the operators would have continued to vent the water steam to avoid pressure buildup. The third containment would then have been completely sealed to allow the core meltdown to happen without releasing radioactive material. After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants. Depending on the damage, the block of the plant would then either be repaired or dismantled.

Now, where does that leave us?

The plant is safe now and will stay safe.

It is the worst case scenario that hasnt been avoided ..they are going to vent and seal ..the venting is nasty , but downwind seems to be out to sea

they seem confident that the flask will hold , that depends on heat dissipated , that depends on how the core slumps , if its not uniform , then you get the hotspots

Dunno I hope they are right ....brave that they are doing it

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so to sum the last twenty pages up...........

no one actually knows what's happening but.................

on one side we have people who think we aren't heading for Armageddon

on the other we have people who think a meltdown and massive radiation leak is already underway and being covered up, coincidentally these are the same people who think 9/11 was a massive conspiracy, the moon landing was fake and lizards rule the world

Well crocodiles can eat people. And they are sort of lizards. So lizards do rule the World.

FACT. END OFF. +1

THIS ^

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