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Beijing Locked Down

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12658963

China has mounted a huge security operation in the capital in response to renewed online calls for protests.

Anonymous postings had urged people to stroll silently in areas of major cities, as a way of calling for change.

The BBC's Damian Grammaticas in Beijing says crowds of shoppers were out but it was not clear if any were protesters.

The massive police deployments are being seen as a sign of the Communist Party's nervousness at the civil unrest and revolutions across the Arab world.

The security blanket thrown over the parts of Beijing on Sunday afternoon was extraordinary, our correspondent says.

This was the third week of calls for protests and the anonymous posts urged people to take a walk through Xidan, a busy shopping area.

At Xidan and another shopping area, Wangfujing, there were hundreds of uniformed police; men posted every few yards. Reporters were banned from filming or interviewing anyone.

Data signals on mobile phones were blocked and everywhere were huge numbers of plain clothes security men; wearing ear pieces, watching everything, our correspondent reports.

He says uniformed police politely checked his identity documents - in contrast to the previous weekend when the BBC team was taken away violently by plain clothes officers.

In Zhongguancun near Peking University, police also closed down the subway and mobile phone networks, and police helicopters were reported hovering overhead.

Online messages said there may have been a planned gathering of students there.

In Shanghai, at least 17 foreign journalists were detained at the protest site, People's Square, for not having permission to be there.

'The wrong idea' Meanwhile, in a more hardline interpretation of current reporting rules, officials said that foreign reporters must seek government permission to conduct interviews in Beijing.

At a news conference, Li Honghai, vice-director of Beijing's Foreign Affairs Office, said reporters must apply for government permission before carrying out any news gathering in the city centre.

Beijing officials at the briefing denounced the protest calls as an attempt to undermine China's stability.

"All clear-minded people will know that these people have chosen the wrong place and have the wrong idea.

"The things they want to see take place have not and cannot occur in Beijing," said city government spokeswoman Wang Hui.

China's government is aware there are many possible reasons for popular discontent.

In his speech at the opening of the annual National People's Congress on Saturday, Premier Wen Jiabao said there were still fundamental issues the government must solve, which he said the masses felt strongly about.

Among the issues he listed were inflation, exorbitant house prices, land appropriations and house demolitions by the government and rampant corruption.

"We must make improving the people's lives a pivot linking reform, development and stability... and make sure people are content with their lives and jobs, society is tranquil and orderly and the country enjoys long-term peace and stability," Mr Wen said.

He made no mention of the unrest in the Middle East

Wheels starting to come off and this is before their housing market collapses. :ph34r:

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And to think we are going to allow the Chinese to install and run the mobile phone system on the London Underground?

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Surely all this police action is going to draw attention to itself and thus promote the protests as extra people wonder what is going on and disagree with all the efforts?

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And to think we are going to allow the Chinese to install and run the mobile phone system on the London Underground?

We'll let the chinese (or anyone) do anything if the bid is low enough.

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We'll let the chinese (or anyone) do anything if the bid is low enough.

We have to, it's the RULES apparently. EU says so.

Not that the Germans, French, Spanish, Italians take much notice.

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As long as your average Chinese person is without question further ahead in material lifestyle each year there won't be a revolution.

When those 30-40 million workers who worked making goods to sell to Europe and the US lost their jobs in the great recession, the government of China within a few months had created about 30-40 million new jobs on a crack infrastructure program.

The problem in those middle eastern nations is 30% unemployment rate among young men.. including huge numbers of university graduate men who had been promised a better life, and had spent years thinking about things.

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

And this is the country a lot of Western ******wits want to take over the US as global hegemon - an inherently unstable totalitarian dictatorship vaguely holding about 20 nations together inside its borders.

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And this is the country a lot of Western ******wits want to take over the US as global hegemon - an inherently unstable totalitarian dictatorship vaguely holding about 20 nations together inside its borders.

Mostly the dumbnuts whose exposure to the Chinese has been confined to Bruce Lee films, occasional gut-wrenching takeaways and bull like Feng Shui.

Those with lengthy, personal and close-up contact with the majority of Chinese (and their diaspora)will tell you a very different and unsettling tale. Or get yourself a (temporary)Chinese girlfriend for a real insight into how they view the effete westerner. Read some Theroux on Singapore..... before you ever think of moving there.

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And this is the country a lot of Western ******wits want to take over the US as global hegemon - an inherently unstable totalitarian dictatorship vaguely holding about 20 nations together inside its borders.

Welcome to the Yookay :lol:

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Mostly the dumbnuts whose exposure to the Chinese has been confined to Bruce Lee films, occasional gut-wrenching takeaways and bull like Feng Shui.

Those with lengthy, personal and close-up contact with the majority of Chinese (and their diaspora)will tell you a very different and unsettling tale. Or get yourself a (temporary)Chinese girlfriend for a real insight into how they view the effete westerner. Read some Theroux on Singapore..... before you ever think of moving there.

The Chinese think that gweilos are weak, gullible and ripe for exploitation. They will get what they want by whatever means necessary. Cheating a foreigner is not considered cheating merely an acceptable business practice.

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The Chinese think that gweilos are weak, gullible and ripe for exploitation. They will get what they want by whatever means necessary. Cheating a foreigner is not considered cheating merely an acceptable business practice.

In fairness it wasn't that long ago that we felt the same about them.

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The Chinese think that gweilos are weak, gullible and ripe for exploitation. They will get what they want by whatever means necessary. Cheating a foreigner is not considered cheating merely an acceptable business practice.

I have no love for Trump but I recently saw him interviewed and he was scathing about the way US diplomats constantly rolled over pandying to the Chinese . He knew that they rarely played by the rules but westerners still insist on viewing the Chinese through some weird prism focused on old myths and exotic arcane practices dumped long ago by these hardened commies.The west needs to wake up fast!

A year or so ago I was passing through customs at Perth (Oz)when I realised they had no line to accommodate "Nothing to Declarers" but every peron in every line was stopped and searched. Clearly the processing was slow and I queried the MO . The reply was insightful: " ....to be able to operate that system requires confidence that most passengers are honest". The Chinese own Perth.

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Let us not forget that the Chinese have in the past killed each other in their millions. Possibly as many as twenty million died in the cultural revolution. They have something in their mindset which makes them different from us. They are intelligent (supposedly) but do not act intelligently.

They don't seem to do fairness and concensus. In the West we have a mindset that says, "I will obey a law I disagree with because I support the system as a whole." One bad law wouldn't turn us into anarchists. I suppose eventually we would reject the entire system, but it would take a lot to make that happen.

Anyone who thinks China is the future (Nial Ferguson) needs to factor in the intrinsic instability in their heads. As underlings they cower, as bosses they exploit. They could learn from Kipling.

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I spent the weekend trying to tidy up a pile of unread Feng Shui magazines. I had no idea how to go about it.

[Church bell rings in distance, tumbleweeds blow by in breeze].

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I emailed one of my Chinese friends in Beijing about this. He said there had possibly been a crack down, but he hadn't been going to those places recently so wasn't sure. Email and internet use are worse, it is harder for him to get around the great firewall to access google reader and mail. One of his mates got visited by the police after he posted about Jasmine on a Chinese portal. His email had the tone of same old, same old. There are sporadic crack downs. I don't think this is necessarily the start of the counter revolution.

More interestingly he wasn't convinced by the Chinese hyperinflation story. He said that CPI is officially 3.3% and the only time he noticed prices moving up for essentials was when he and his wife were near his old university and went for noodles. He said the prices for noodles the last time he was there about 3 years were up around 50%, so we are talking about a bowl of large noodles that used to cost 50p and are now about 75p. The really lunatic thing are house prices. He bought a 60-70m sq flat for 1m RMB in 2008 and it is apparently worth over 2m RMB now. He earns around 50k RMB a year. He freely admits he should probably STR but no-one sells property in China - his wife would probably divorce him and his family would have him committed. I don't think he was exaggerating or joking much when he wrote that.

As for me, I'd say this blog article has it about right

http://www.pekingduck.org/2011/02/what-if-they-held-a-revolution-and-nobody-came/

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I emailed one of my Chinese friends in Beijing about this. He said there had possibly been a crack down, but he hadn't been going to those places recently so wasn't sure. Email and internet use are worse, it is harder for him to get around the great firewall to access google reader and mail. One of his mates got visited by the police after he posted about Jasmine on a Chinese portal. His email had the tone of same old, same old. There are sporadic crack downs. I don't think this is necessarily the start of the counter revolution.

More interestingly he wasn't convinced by the Chinese hyperinflation story. He said that CPI is officially 3.3% and the only time he noticed prices moving up for essentials was when he and his wife were near his old university and went for noodles. He said the prices for noodles the last time he was there about 3 years were up around 50%, so we are talking about a bowl of large noodles that used to cost 50p and are now about 75p. The really lunatic thing are house prices. He bought a 60-70m sq flat for 1m RMB in 2008 and it is apparently worth over 2m RMB now. He earns around 50k RMB a year. He freely admits he should probably STR but no-one sells property in China - his wife would probably divorce him and his family would have him committed. I don't think he was exaggerating or joking much when he wrote that.

As for me, I'd say this blog article has it about right

http://www.pekingduck.org/2011/02/what-if-they-held-a-revolution-and-nobody-came/

"The Tian'amen Generation is long gone. This generation is concerned with making our(read-MY)life better."

This fits in with what a Chinese colleague told me at lunch only last week. Apparently the Chinese call it the 4:2:1 problem. As a result of the former child policy there are now huge numbers of families with only one child who has received the constant pampering and adulation not only of mum and dad, but also the 4 grandparents. (And the chinese do drool over their kids like he's the only one in the world!)

These kids have developed into a grotesque generation , totally self- obsessed, selfish and demanding.(This comes direct from the mouth of a Chinese who is proud of his race)

If they are the next generation of owners and entrepreneurs that will dictate the lives and well being of your kids....God help us.

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Let us not forget that the Chinese have in the past killed each other in their millions. Possibly as many as twenty million died in the cultural revolution. They have something in their mindset which makes them different from us. They are intelligent (supposedly) but do not act intelligently.

They don't seem to do fairness and concensus. In the West we have a mindset that says, "I will obey a law I disagree with because I support the system as a whole." One bad law wouldn't turn us into anarchists. I suppose eventually we would reject the entire system, but it would take a lot to make that happen.

Anyone who thinks China is the future (Nial Ferguson) needs to factor in the intrinsic instability in their heads. As underlings they cower, as bosses they exploit. They could learn from Kipling.

They got the technical know how from the west but not the enlightenemt thinking that birthed it. (And to be fair we over this side of the globe have more or less jacked in the enlightenment values as well. Collectivism rules in one form or another pretty nearly everywhere.)

To turn geeky for a minute, theres a principle from star trek about not giving socially backward thinkers radical new tech that probably should have been the way to go but ofc, it's too late for that.

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"The Tian'amen Generation is long gone. This generation is concerned with making our(read-MY)life better."

The Tiananmen Generation is a myth. The student leaders are now business people in the US and the protests were more to do with corruption and a background of a high inflation, faltering economy rather than pleas for multi-party democracy. You'll find many members of the Tiananmen Generation in China will now argue that the govt did the right thing.

Edit: for coherence

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They got the technical know how from the west but not the enlightenemt thinking that birthed it. (And to be fair we over this side of the globe have more or less jacked in the enlightenment values as well. Collectivism rules in one form or another pretty nearly everywhere.)

To turn geeky for a minute, theres a principle from star trek about not giving socially backward thinkers radical new tech that probably should have been the way to go but ofc, it's too late for that.

Yes, the "Prime Directive". Pre-warp civilizations are not be given technology they don't already have.

Unfortunately not possible on a single planet.

And in fact the Chinese have invented lots of things. But they never really ran with what they invented, eg they invented gunpowder but not guns, printing but not newspapers or even books. They got so good at porcelain that they never invented glass, hence no optics, no telescopes, much of modern science was denied to them until the West came along.

But their real problem has always been centralised authoritarianism. They'd invent something nifty, the emperor got one and that was it. The rest stayed in the paddy fields and grew rice. Even now, if you trace back their supposed capialist development you'll find the state behind most big businesses. There's no genuine entrepreurship, no possiblity of a Henry Ford, or a Bill Gates.

(I understand the 4:2:1 generation are known as the "Little Emperors".)

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Possibly as many as twenty million died in the cultural revolution.

Closer to 50 Million.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Chairman Mao, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history.

And the Chinese people still do not know about it.

Very Scary place if you ask me.

Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known"

At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.

Mr Dikötter is the only author to have delved into the Chinese archives since they were reopened four years ago. He argued that this devastating period of history – which has until now remained hidden – has international resonance. "It ranks alongside the gulags and the Holocaust as one of the three greatest events of the 20th century.... It was like [the Cambodian communist dictator] Pol Pot's genocide multiplied 20 times over," he said.
His book, Mao's Great Famine; The Story of China's Most Devastating Catastrophe, reveals that while this is a part of history that has been "quite forgotten" in the official memory of the People's Republic of China, there was a "staggering degree of violence" that was, remarkably, carefully catalogued in Public Security Bureau reports
State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off.

People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

One piece of evidence revealed that 13,000 opponents of the new regime were killed in one region alone, in just three weeks.

The suppression of the worlds worst genocide carried out by the state, cannot be healthy for any nation.

Never mind one that was carried out against its own people.

And the present totalitarian government is the direct descendant of Mao's.

Following an economic collapse, civil war would seem like one possibility.

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Yes, the "Prime Directive". Pre-warp civilizations are not be given technology they don't already have.

Unfortunately not possible on a single planet.

And in fact the Chinese have invented lots of things. But they never really ran with what they invented, eg they invented gunpowder but not guns, printing but not newspapers or even books. They got so good at porcelain that they never invented glass, hence no optics, no telescopes, much of modern science was denied to them until the West came along.

But their real problem has always been centralised authoritarianism. They'd invent something nifty, the emperor got one and that was it. The rest stayed in the paddy fields and grew rice. Even now, if you trace back their supposed capialist development you'll find the state behind most big businesses. There's no genuine entrepreurship, no possiblity of a Henry Ford, or a Bill Gates.

(I understand the 4:2:1 generation are known as the "Little Emperors".)

yes, which is why they won't be taking over anything. It's the freedom that creates wealth and growth. Nicking ideas from a superior culture and copying them without the petri dish which birthed won't work as a permanent engine for prosperity.

We'll be fine IF we go back to something like the genuine enlightenment ideals and drop this ditzy collectivist/statist streak we've been on.

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"The Tian'amen Generation is long gone. This generation is concerned with making our(read-MY)life better."

This fits in with what a Chinese colleague told me at lunch only last week. Apparently the Chinese call it the 4:2:1 problem. As a result of the former child policy there are now huge numbers of families with only one child who has received the constant pampering and adulation not only of mum and dad, but also the 4 grandparents. (And the chinese do drool over their kids like he's the only one in the world!)

These kids have developed into a grotesque generation , totally self- obsessed, selfish and demanding.(This comes direct from the mouth of a Chinese who is proud of his race)

If they are the next generation of owners and entrepreneurs that will dictate the lives and well being of your kids....God help us.

Expectation and entitlement manifests itself via surroundings (environment) and up bringing (parental/school/commercial brain washing), it isn’t a trait you’re born with.

It’s reasonable to suggest then that the more a country develops economically, the more the average citizen will expect with regards to standards of living in return for their labours.

Economy of scale can cut both ways. Millions of hungry Chinese and Indians struggling with high food prices in lands with ever increasing million/billionaires is an interesting recipe indeed.

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  • 276 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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