Hsbc Reveals Plans To Quit London For Hong Kong

[bogbrush]

I really don't get the reaction to this.

IF banking is going to broadly stay the same (and without a World-wide change that seems likely), what exactly is the benefit of them domiciling abroad?

[OnlyMe]

Sentence talked about selling Britain by the pound, admirable, but years too late, it has already happened. Have a look at this list of building materials companies.

The locusts are moving on becuase there is nothing worth staying for, what was wprth taking over and taking fees for has been done.

Generations will pay the price, maybe mud huts is all we'll be able to afford - except you won't get to build one because of planning permission and the regs. OF course there is always the opportunity to be ripped off for a mega expensive share of a crappy newbuild. Treasure island indeed.

Hanson - HeidelBerg Cement 2007

RMC: - Cemex of Mexico 2005

Blue Circle: Lafarge 2001

ARC: - Hanson, now Heidelberg

Castle Cement: Heidelberg Cement

Bradstone: Holcim 2005

Tarmac: now the Industrial Minerals Division of Anglo American plc, which includes Tarmac Topfloor and Durox

Ibstock Brick: CRH (Irish) 1999

Celcon H+H International A/S, a Danish company.

Baggeridge Brick: Wienerberger 2006.

Redland - Lafarge 1997

BPB (British Gypsum) 2005

Marley - Etex 1998

Boulton & Paul Joinery - Jeld Wen in 1999

John Carr - Jeld Wen

Magnet - Nobia

Premdor Crosby - Masonite of Canada

Hepworth - Wavin

Baxi Potterton: Private Equity

Pilkington: Nippon Sheet Glass 2006

Ideal Stelrad: - HSBC private equity 2002

MK Electric:

Jablite: - Synbra Group BV

Rockwool: Danish public company

Sadolin and Sikkens: - Akzo Nobel (what was left of Courtaulds and Crown Berger paints)

Dulux, ICI, Akzo Nobel

Edited March 6, 2011 by OnlyMe

[redpanda]

It's beyond belief that some people here are lauding this as a great thing. One of the biggest corporations in the world that employs thousands of people and pays taxes in the UK (and never received any government bailout) is moving overseas. How is the UK ever going to dig itself out of the massive hole it has created without private enterprise to support it? This is a significant milestone in the inexorable shift of power from West to East and the UK's terminal decline into a second world state, what cause is there for celebration?

Do you think the HK people are looking at this as a disaster that HSBC is moving to their shores? And for those who cannot be bothered to do any of their own research, HK is a Special Administrative Region of China, it operates under a completely different system with its own legal system, own currency, own tax policy etc, etc. There are no "capital controls" here, HK is extremely open to free enterprise, that's why it tops the Index of Economic Freedom (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking). You think the Chinese are going to interfere in HK and kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? HSBC relocating its head office here is great news for HK and it will be welcomed with open arms.

And there are plenty of UK expats and "yummy mummies" over here already and I expect more and more will follow as the UK continues its steady decline. I've yet to find anyone who didn't love living here, but then of course to make any informed comments on HK it would help if you'd actually lived and worked here first.

[ken_ichikawa]

IC, they are withdrawing from the Worlds 4th Largest market?...If they do business here, they pay taxes here.

The biggest tax we make from these suckers is the interest depositors make (UK) and the money made on lending in the UK.

We dont need these leaches just because they make some tax payments on depositors investments.....

Of course, they will be happy with tighter capital controls in China....and a tendency to shoot wrongdoers.

4th largest market? You talking about the UK? the UK is 6th by falsified GDP, by PPP sorted GDP it is 9th.

[ken_ichikawa]

Spot on.

As anyone who's been to Hong Kong knows, there won't be

many 'yummy mummy' bankers wives keen on relocating to a place that makes our overcrowded island look positively empty.

HK is very nice if you have money actually, my dad's current village is actually in the HK countryside and it is packed full of white bankers who don't want to live in the white ghetto of Midlevels of Wanchai.

The problem with wives and such like is that HK is an absolute graveyard for marraige for expats. Local poon is raised to hunt for wealthy husbands, the local HK men are spineless social cripples who don't want the local women. And thus you hang around banker ville HK, LKF and the place is stuffed with women looking to snag a wealthy gweilo.... and when a petite slim Chinese girl approaches you who looks like she is 18 (and will stay looking this way until her late 40s) approaches you many simply split from their partners.

[OnlyMe]

It's beyond belief that some people here are lauding this as a great thing. One of the biggest corporations in the world that employs thousands of people and pays taxes in the UK (and never received any government bailout) is moving overseas. How is the UK ever going to dig itself out of the massive hole it has created without private enterprise to support it? This is a significant milestone in the inexorable shift of power from West to East and the UK's terminal decline into a second world state, what cause is there for celebration?

Do you think the HK people are looking at this as a disaster that HSBC is moving to their shores? And for those who cannot be bothered to do any of their own research, HK is a Special Administrative Region of China, it operates under a completely different system with its own legal system, own currency, own tax policy etc, etc. There are no "capital controls" here, HK is extremely open to free enterprise, that's why it tops the Index of Economic Freedom (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking). You think the Chinese are going to interfere in HK and kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? HSBC relocating its head office here is great news for HK and it will be welcomed with open arms.

And there are plenty of UK expats and "yummy mummies" over here already and I expect more and more will follow as the UK continues its steady decline. I've yet to find anyone who didn't love living here, but then of course to make any informed comments on HK it would help if you'd actually lived and worked here first.

This country has been ransacked by the banks, their continuing presence and influence will not be beneficial for the population. They have no intention of changing their methodology or aims so better they go.

[ken_ichikawa]

I really don't get the reaction to this.

IF banking is going to broadly stay the same (and without a World-wide change that seems likely), what exactly is the benefit of them domiciling abroad?

It's to do with lots of things, for instance the HSBC HQ isn't just a bunch of old men and women sitting round a table you have 1000s of minions under them. In the UK to pay a poverty wage you have to pay:

20% PAYE

11.8%NIC

12.8%NIC

(NIC is going up 1% come April too to boot!)

Which means you have to pay a higher base salary to compensate for the money taken away from the minions.

In HK an OK wage of about 20,000 you pay 2% income tax on (sometimes 0%) and IIRC a 6% NIC type payment which you can contract out of. There is no NIC, there is No PAYE all employees complete their own tax returns. Thus instead of boosting the £20,000 wage to £30,000 to make up for all the tax you can pay the minion £20,000 instead.

Except in HK due to the lower costs because of the lower taxes (a bus ticket there is typically 50p a UK bus ticket is typically £4) you can pay your minion £17,000 and he'll still have the same PPP as a British person on £20,000 after tax.

Not to mention HK is somewhat more work centric. 60-80 hours a day is normal. Patrick currently pumps 105hours a week for Citibank and is actually paid less than NMW (UK) if you divide his pay by the hours). The culture accepts this as completely normal while British culture does not.

[Bloo Loo]

4th largest market? You talking about the UK? the UK is 6th by falsified GDP, by PPP sorted GDP it is 9th.

not for bankers...Its number 1.

[mfp123]

there are no real benefits for the UK if HSBC move their HQ to Hong Kong.

all they are essentially doing is changing the residency status from the UK to HK, which i think in a legal sense, they just have to move the board and the core management who run the group over to Hong Kong. everything else will stay the same.

the biggest significance of moving to HK is actually the power shift of this move.

lets face it, asia is the place to be at the moment, and thats where it makes most of its profits now anyway.

Edited March 6, 2011 by mfp123

[gf3]

If all the banks had their HQ abroad would the British tax payer still have to pick up the tab if the credit crunch happened again?

[MrPin]

. and when a petite slim Chinese girl approaches you who looks like she is 18 (and will stay looking this way until her late 40s) approaches you many simply split from their partners.

The wonders of MSG?

[redpanda]

This country has been ransacked by the banks, their continuing presence and influence will not be beneficial for the population. They have no intention of changing their methodology or aims so better they go.

The UK was ruined by Gordon Brown and his fake economic miracle, it's very convenient for politicians to blame banks for everything that happened on their watch, and judging by the comments here it seems some people have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Without financial services, in what industry does the UK have a competitive advantage any more to lead it out of the mess it is in? Pound shops and Cash Converters?

[mdman]

A hypothetical.

If HSBC collapsed tomorrow, would it be bailed out or not?

If it's too big to fail, we don't want the mofo. If it isn't, it still needs to pay its fair share like the rest of us.

The tory slogan is 'we're all in this together'. How exactly does that translate into legalised fraud, tax evasion and free money for bankers while the rest of us are taxed for the air we exhale?

Banking needs to reset - ground zero - with the current fraudsters eradicated (by jail or lynching)

If a country removed all the banks overnight, new ones would appear in their place as there is a need for banking.

The current senior banking industry staff have proven time and time again that they should not be let anywhere near a bank. The current arrangement is like allowing the NHS to be run by an army of Harold Shipmans.

If there is a banking purge, there'll be a short Depression. That would be a good thing. For one thing, house prices would fall, living costs would fall, and the quantum physicists currently employed in banking might end up doing something beneficial for society.

[OnlyMe]

The UK was ruined by Gordon Brown and his fake economic miracle, it's very convenient for politicians to blame banks for everything that happened on their watch, and judging by the comments here it seems some people have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Without financial services, in what industry does the UK have a competitive advantage any more to lead it out of the mess it is in? Pound shops and Cash Converters?

that situation is also largely thanks to these banking scum selling the country down the river, load the population up with debt, sell out the companies to whoever will give them the sweetest deal - and yes as market makers/financiers they do pull the strings.

To stop the rot you have to take out the bad wood.

[Injin]

I really don't get the reaction to this.

IF banking is going to broadly stay the same (and without a World-wide change that seems likely), what exactly is the benefit of them domiciling abroad?

I like my scumbags a long way off, don't know about you.

[bogbrush]

It's to do with lots of things, for instance the HSBC HQ isn't just a bunch of old men and women sitting round a table you have 1000s of minions under them. In the UK to pay a poverty wage you have to pay:

20% PAYE

11.8%NIC

12.8%NIC

(NIC is going up 1% come April too to boot!)

Which means you have to pay a higher base salary to compensate for the money taken away from the minions.

In HK an OK wage of about 20,000 you pay 2% income tax on (sometimes 0%) and IIRC a 6% NIC type payment which you can contract out of. There is no NIC, there is No PAYE all employees complete their own tax returns. Thus instead of boosting the £20,000 wage to £30,000 to make up for all the tax you can pay the minion £20,000 instead.

Except in HK due to the lower costs because of the lower taxes (a bus ticket there is typically 50p a UK bus ticket is typically £4) you can pay your minion £17,000 and he'll still have the same PPP as a British person on £20,000 after tax.

Not to mention HK is somewhat more work centric. 60-80 hours a day is normal. Patrick currently pumps 105hours a week for Citibank and is actually paid less than NMW (UK) if you divide his pay by the hours). The culture accepts this as completely normal while British culture does not.

I didn't mean benefit to HSBC, I meant benefit to Britain.

Edited March 6, 2011 by bogbrush

[bogbrush]

that situation is also largely thanks to these banking scum selling the country down the river, load the population up with debt, sell out the companies to whoever will give them the sweetest deal - and yes as market makers/financiers they do pull the strings.

To stop the rot you have to take out the bad wood.

So you're abolishing banking here?

If not, how does this help?

Same question really to Injin - but I know your answer will be internally consistent (yes, you'd go the whole way).

[Injin]

they are not withdrawing. Has WPP left, or Shire, or Hamilton, or Charter..... nope. The UK tax take has, however dropped hugely, and apart from WPP, these are relative tiddlers compared to HSBC. I hope you don't mean the UK retail taxes, for HSBC, they really are dwarfed by the corporate and global revenues ..... plus there is the loss of mass, and if others do the same, it could become critical and the City may move to somewhere more benign (yes, I know) - which will lose the UK tens of billions revenue, then the lawyers and accountants also shift, another tens of billions gone (again, yes I know, but it's real taxes) - which means that the Merc salesmen do badly, the Merc salesmen's wives can't buy shoes and they sack their gardener, cleaner and their gardener has to sign on.... etc etc....

Taxing a bank is like stealing from a mugger - it makes ****** all difference to the victim.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Injin

[Injin]

So you're abolishing banking here?

If not, how does this help?

Same question really to Injin - but I know your answer will be internally consistent (yes, you'd go the whole way).

As things are it makes banking easier to regulate - if they all sod off and theres no tax benefit theres no issue with sticking them all in chokey. (Apart from the fact that china doesn't extradite it's citizens, which is what this move is for. Bad shit, just around the corner.)

[Democorruptcy]

In 2008 HSBC looked the most secure bank they hadn't resorted to the same fraudulent lending as other banks. For years they had probably missed out on profits by running a tighter ship. In 2008 they should have got their reward when the other banks failed and they got more business in a properly regulated industry. But look what happened - the poorly run banks swept their bad debts under the carpet so in the UK crime pays. Nothing has changed about our regulation since.

I think they are probably leaving because they have been driven out by corruption in the UK. It's like the Chinese firm that tampered with their milk powder to cut costs and make more profits - once firms can do this they all have to or they cannot compete. HSBC are probably leaving not because they are worried about regulation etc but that they have decided there isn't going to be any. They can see what's happening in the UK - our politicians are in the pockets of big business and fraudulent lending is continuing (1in 3 mortgages still non-income verified) to support the housing ponzi scheme - perhaps they don't want to try compete in that market? Eventually there is going to be one major collapse (probably when Labour get back in). Why stay and be part of that?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Redhat Sly

[OnlyMe]

I never picked up on it at the time but my customers who banked with HSBC have moved away from them as I've been having to change their invoices to show the new bank details to pay money into.

I wondered if HSBC is reacting to a loss of business in the UK?

Like I said the locusts have already ripped apart, sold or indebted for profit what they could and now they are off.

[ken_ichikawa]

I think they are probably leaving because they have been driven out by corruption in the UK.

They can see what's happening in the UK - our politicians are in the pockets of big business and fraudulent lending is continuing (1in 3 mortgages still non-income verified) to support the housing ponzi scheme - perhaps they don't want to try compete in that market? Eventually there is going to be one major collapse (probably when Labour get back in). Why stay and be part of that?

I feel the same way tbh as a person quite a lot of the time...

[Bloo Loo]

So you're abolishing banking here?

If not, how does this help?

Same question really to Injin - but I know your answer will be internally consistent (yes, you'd go the whole way).

banking makes it easy to move money around.

It can oil the wheels of commerce.

it can bring capital to wealth creators.

Our current system does do most of these things, but sadly, in the last 20 years, bankers have forgotten what they are there for and why they are tolerated and regulated... note they need to be regulated....otherwise they can easily blow themselves up....what happened was the regulators became in on "it" and the Government let it ride, for obvious reasons.

Now the regulators must regulate, and the bankers put back in the hole.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Bloo Loo

[SHERWICK]

Not to mention HK is somewhat more work centric. 60-80 hours a day is normal.

60-80 hours a day? Well, feck me. How do the blighters do it?!?! It's a miracle!

[mattyfc]

What amazes me is that the telegraph has turned in to a tabloid over the last few years. They must be really desperate for readers, the quality of journalism seems to decrease on a daily basis. Soon all the papers will be as sensational as the sun and the mail. Could this be the torygraph aiming at Vince Cable subtly again as well?

This story may be true, but it is probably a scare story wither concocted by HSBC or made up by the telegraph.

Would HSBC really tell there institutional investors they would move in advance? Not likely I think.

Interested to see if this turns out to be true or not.

One thing's for certain, I won't be paying for the telegraph anytime soon and the sooner they erect a pay wall the better.

Edit

The telegraph seems to have pulled an earlier story about a tax row? Did HSBC threaten to sue I wonder? Why have they changed the article?

(http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=HSBC+tax+row&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=1d3db6eacb0cad36)

Not in the Google cache unfortunately.

Edited March 6, 2011 by mattyfc