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Ship Of Fools: How Stupidity And Corruption Sank The Celtic Tiger.

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Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger.

With so many citizens feeling materially better off, the conspicuous lifestyles of a new gentry of developers and bankers was not only accepted, but almost universally welcomed.

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2010/01/celtic-tiger-ireland-serious

It still amazes me how every man & his dog didn't see it coming!! :D

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Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger.

With so many citizens feeling materially better off, the conspicuous lifestyles of a new gentry of developers and bankers was not only accepted, but almost universally welcomed.

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2010/01/celtic-tiger-ireland-serious

It still amazes me how every man & his dog didn't see it coming!! :D

Fintan O'Toole has written a book of the same or similar title as this article. It's available in audiobook also. It is quite astonishing. It seems from the book that the electorate knew they were voting in scoundrels and chancers but, at the time, everyone thought that that was ok. :rolleyes:

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Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger.

With so many citizens feeling materially better off, the conspicuous lifestyles of a new gentry of developers and bankers was not only accepted, but almost universally welcomed.

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2010/01/celtic-tiger-ireland-serious

It still amazes me how every man & his dog didn't see it coming!! :D

They saw it coming but thought they could milk it for all its worth while it was happening and then sell off near the top of the market. Timing is everything with PONZI economies. In fact, you could say timing is everyting with all investments--sell before everyone else decides the top is near.

Edited by Realistbear

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Now the people who didn't gain anything - the prudent - are going to be burned with the profligate.

Yup - Here in the UK there are millions of older people who saved diligently - and now they're in a bad situation thanks to the actions of a few thousand robber baron banksters... It is beyond criminal. :angry:

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Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger.

With so many citizens feeling materially better off, the conspicuous lifestyles of a new gentry of developers and bankers was not only accepted, but almost universally welcomed.

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2010/01/celtic-tiger-ireland-serious

It still amazes me how every man & his dog didn't see it coming!! :D

It's the same problem with public pensions -- either they are cut to a sustainable level now, or we simply continue until we run out of money and no-one gets anything.

Oh well, there is a song about that:

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It still amazes me how every man & his dog didn't see it coming!! :D

In 2005 Pam Woodall warned about the enormous dangers to the Irish economy, what a pity there arent more journalists like her in the world.

Recently The Econonomist warned about the Australian bubble, but as usual there are fools explaining how everything is fine over there.

This crisis has made me dumbfounded at the staggering stupidity of people, I never thought that people could be so idiotic.

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Its a pathological thing. People dont like to rock the boat, they like claiming their easy money by following the herd.

Around 2004/5 i was at Uni doing a module on economics. Admittedly house prices were the last thing on my mind so i wasnt aware of the mortgage morass in places like Ireland. But even then, when i mentioned to the (Irish) lecturer that a lot of the supposed 'growth' he kept championing was based on EU grants and loans to Ireland, he gave me a look that could kill and swiftly moved on. He'd have probably thrown me out the lecture theatre if id mentioned mortgage and personal debt.

Same with all our Havard 'educated' bank bosses and Fed chairmen. All theyre told to do is work within the (corrupt) system, not challenge it or point out its faults.

The whole system is rotten to the core. Education included. Best thing re:tuition fees is to shut down half of the uni's and allow common sense to guide decision making, not groupthink possesed lecturers and their easily indoctrinated students.

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Here's an example of a shopkeeper who was given a 32 million loan to develop a shopping centre in a small town in Co Monaghan. The premises are now valued at 1 or 2 million and the poor sucker has to pay back the 32 million.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0305/1224291372102.html

http://www.castleblayney.ie/html/blayney/castleblayney.asp

population 3000

that is amazing.

you fool a bank into giving you 32 million euros and then take them to court for not spotting that your business plan was terrible.

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Remember too that many ordinary people suddenly became very wealthy.

Farmers selling fields they couldn't graze a donkey on for millions. Brickies earning hundreds every day. Ordinary people saw a "Hello" lifestyle and wanted to grab a chunk.

When I started watching RTE in 2006 David McWillimam warned what was happening in his program "All the Pope's children" about the 30 year olds and their unsustainable aspirational lifestyle.

RTE put out a documentary "Futureshock" I think it was and Bertie Ahern was furious trying to get it pulled and advised the "begrudgers" to go and commit suicide. So there was a concerted movement from government to keep the party going and cheap cash borrowed from Germany fuelled it more.

http://www.google.co...XGNDLswaa-ZiEDg

Now the people who didn't gain anything - the prudent - are going to be burned with the profligate.

Bertie Ahern = BA

The Ba refers to all those non-physical qualities that make up the personality of a human. But it also has to do with power - and gods as well as humans can have a Ba. Certain deities were even described as being the Ba of another god, i.e. the Ba of Re was the Benu bird at Heliopolis, and the Apis bull was considered the Ba of Osiris.

Isis/Os-iris = Top Masons

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allegedly Bertie was a car park attendant in Drumcondra before he aspired to greatness -- does this have any significance in the mysteries?

http://www.theproper...=32743&p=428416

From your website

25 Coburg Place, Dublin 1 (-229k, -70%) :rolleyes:

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I'm married to an Irish lass and got married over there in the mid-90s. We had a bus load of people over for the wedding and I'll never forget the looks of amazement on their faces as we travelled through the countryside 20-30 miles west of Dublin. Just totally agog at all the new luxury houses being built. It looked like a lifestyle most people in the UK only dream of.

Make no mistake those Irish electors kept voting those politicians in because they loved what they were experiencing. There was very little questioning of how it was possible. Few dissenting voices. They thought it would never end.

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I have posted this video before on HPC, but here is it again for anyone who has not seen it.

No. He's forgotten to mention the obvious point (from needsleep's post): those Irish electors kept voting those politicians in because they loved what they were experiencing.

They loved it and didn't question it.

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Here's an example of a shopkeeper who was given a 32 million loan to develop a shopping centre in a small town in Co Monaghan. The premises are now valued at 1 or 2 million and the poor sucker has to pay back the 32 million.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0305/1224291372102.html

http://www.castleblayney.ie/html/blayney/castleblayney.asp

population 3000

:blink:

'Represented by the 'New Beginning’s' group of lawyers'..... somewhat ironic name

'He also dismissed claims the bank was not entitled to judgment on grounds of “a radical and cataclysmic change of circumstances”

due to the collapse in property values.'

T!ts up on a massive silicon injected scale

.....Dungannon Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Sadly the traditional Irish fondness for "Yer Man", the supposedly loveable rogue who took on the outside world and won, has come back to bite them on the bum. They have been taught the lesson that crooks are thieves first and patriots second. This time the people being stolen from were the Irish themselves.

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No. He's forgotten to mention the obvious point (from needsleep's post): those Irish electors kept voting those politicians in because they loved what they were experiencing.

They loved it and didn't question it.

So true........... Same applies to UK though... The only difference is - the air is going to come out of the bubble much more slowly - but it will come out big time nevertheless.... And, in fact, "prices" have come down FAR more than people care to admit since 2007/8... :rolleyes:

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There will be trouble ahead :unsure:

Independent.ie

Voter betrayal: FG/Labour to ditch pledges on economy

They will brazenly follow Fianna Fail's four-year austerity plan as Labour protects public sector

By JODY CORCORAN

Sunday March 06 2011

The Fine Gael/Labour coalition Government is to implement in detail the outgoing Government's four-year austerity plan as approved by the EU-IMF, the Sunday Independent can reveal.

In what will amount to the most barefaced breach of election promises ever perpetrated by an incoming Government, the coalition partners' programme for government will cause uproar when it is published today.

While an attempt will be made to dress up the programme as a new plan by a new Government, when it is analysed it will be seen for what it is -- the continuation of the economic policies of Fianna Fail and the Greens, virtually in minute detail, as laid down by the EU-IMF.

If anything, Fine Gael will be seen to have capitulated more as it is handing over responsibility for reform of the public sector to Labour, whose core support is drawn from the public sector.

The programme envisages no more than 22,000 voluntary redundancies in the public sector, a long way short of Fine Gael's election promise to reduce the numbers employed by 30,000.

Fine Gael is expected to defend this U-turn by stating that 2,500 voluntary redundancies have already taken place in the public sector since January 2010.

However, the Fine Gael decision to hand reform of the public sector to Labour will provoke fury among many Fine Gael TDs, and cause uproar among the huge numbers who voted for Fine Gael.

Furthermore, it reduces the Government's chances of re-negotiating the EU-IMF bailout since our public spending excess is seen as a chronic problem in Europe.

The new Government will place heavy emphasis on its intention to renegotiate the bailout plan, as imposed on the outgoing Government, but the possibility of such a renegotiation is at least two, maybe three years away.

The omens are not good in this regard as the incoming Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, has already prepared the ground to pull back from his demand for "haircuts" on senior bank debt, saying other ways must be found to cut the cost of Ireland's bank bailout if losses are not imposed on bondholders.

"There is no way we are going to survive as a country unless we successfully renegotiate the EU-IMF deal," a senior Fine Gael source, familiar with the negotiations to form a Government, told the Sunday Independent yesterday.

The new Government will cite briefings on the dire state of the economy, and the banks to explain its decision to slip into the straitjacket imposed by the EU-IMF, just vacated by Fianna Fail and the Greens.

Yesterday, however, a well-placed Fine Gael source did not even attempt to disguise the fact that the new programme for government represents a rip-off of the outgoing Government's four-year plan as signed off on by the EU-IMF.

"Yes, we are going to have to stick with the four-year plan, at least for two or three years, and maybe even go further and deeper than the austerity measures envisaged in that plan," he said. "There is no getting away from that. I cannot deny it.

"The country is banjaxed, worse than we ever imagined. We have no choice."

In effect, the programme for government negotiated between Fine Gael and Labour will represent a middle-ground compromise on the respective election promises of FG and Labour, particularly in relation to the economy.

However, Fine Gael has ceded to Labour the issue of reform of the public sector, which is certain to anger the hundreds of thousands of private sector workers who voted for Fine Gael in the General Election.

An analysis of voting patterns carried out by the Sunday Independent reveals that only 16 per cent of Fine Gael voters gave their second preference to Labour candidates, while Labour transfers to Fine Gael amounted to just 35 per cent.

The analysis, therefore, shows that Fine Gael voters made it clear that they were not supporting a Fine Gael/Labour coalition; while there was greater Labour support for this form of Government, a majority of Labour voters did not favour coalition with Fine Gael either.

In the Sunday Independent today, Independent TD Shane Ross, who had offered up to eight Independent TDs to support a minority Fine Gael Government, writes: "These guys fell into each other's arms months ago.

"Any observer of the camaraderie in Leinster House over the years knows that their 14 years in the political wilderness of opposition have united them in one common mission: power. To hell with policy, it is time to divide the spoils. Spoils first, policy later."

However, it is the specifics of policy, as contained in the programme for government, which are now certain to provoke the anger of the electorate.

In the election campaign, Fine Gael promised to reduce numbers working in the public sector by 30,000, through a scheme of voluntary redundancy, under the Croke Park deal. But Labour said a voluntary reduction of the order of 18,000 would suffice.

The Sunday Independent has learned that the new government programme commits to reducing employment in the public sector by, at most, 22,000 through the Croke Park deal, a concession by Fine Gael which represents a huge victory for Labour.

Yesterday, a senior Fine Gael TD who is not party to the negotiations said: "If we hand over the public sector to Labour the game is up, we will be finished before we start. It is one of the most central issues, if not the main issue. This will lead to deep divisions in Fine Gael."

Another Fine Gael TD told the Sunday Independent: "Already today I have had two businessmen on to me about this. If Fine Gael lets Labour have the public sector, it's over for us, game, set and match."

The Sunday Independent understands that the new government will embark on a programme of the sale of non-strategic state assets, ostensibly to provide for a job stimulus package as promised by Fine Gael in the election campaign.

However, there is growing concern within Fine Gael that the sale of semi-states will take place to spare greater savings in the public sector.

In relation to the economy, both Fine Gael and Labour have compromised their election promises to, in effect, bring them closer to the commitments of Fianna Fail's four-year plan.

For example, the new programme for government commits to reducing the national deficit to three per cent of Gross Domestic Product by 2015: in the election campaign, Fine Gael said its aim was to reduce the deficit by 2014 and Labour said by 2016.

Fine Gael will claim victory insofar as the new programme commits to no new or increased taxes on work, not even on those who earn in excess of €100,000 a year, as proposed by Labour during the election.

However, a raft of stealth taxes will be contained in the government programme, such as water charges and property taxes. Other, more obscure stealth taxes are also expected.

It is also understood that Fas is to be abolished and its functions absorbed into the workings of the Department of Social Protection.

The issue of public sector reform will move centre stage when the new Government is in power. The credibility of Fine Gael and Labour on this issue, however, will be damaged by a decision not to cut the number of ministers of state.

While the new government programme contains a range of proposed political reforms, the Sunday Independent understands that all 14 junior ministers are to be retained.

Further briefings indicate the possible make-up of the Cabinet: the Fine Gael contingent will include Enda Kenny (Taoiseach); James Reilly (Health); Phil Hogan (Environment); Alan Shatter (Attorney-General or Justice); Richard Bruton, Michael Noonan, Leo Varadkar; Simon Coveney; and Frances Fitzgerald. Sean Barrett is expected to be made Ceann Comhairle.

The Labour contingent will include Eamon Gilmore; Joan Burton; Brendan Howlin; Ruairi Quinn; and Pat Rabbitte. The Labour portfolios will include a new department for public sector reform; and Foreign Affairs, Enterprise & Employment and Education. It is expected Labour will also have a 'super-junior' minister at Cabinet, either Jan O'Sullivan from Limerick or Sean Sherlock from Cork.

The Fine Gael parliamentary party is to discuss the programme for government tomorrow; the programme will also go before a Labour special delegate conference in Dublin today.

Shortly before 10pm last night, Fine Gael's chief negotiator Phil Hogan emerged from the talks to say that the parties would reach a deal by the end of the night. He said that there were just "three or four policy issues" remaining to be sorted out, and added that the shape of the Government -- meaning the dividing out of the ministers' portfolios -- had yet to be agreed upon.

Sources close to the talks said that negotiations were prolonged into the early hours because Mr Gilmore was demanding six full ministers at Cabinet table -- while Mr Kenny was adamant that Labour could only have five, plus one "super junior".

Coming close to midnight, both sides were still deadlocked on the issue.

- JODY CORCORAN

linky http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elections/voter-betrayal-fglabour-to-ditch-pledges-on-economy-2567686.html

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"The country is banjaxed, worse than we ever imagined. We have no choice."

It's always worse than expected. Just like in the UK. Ok but give the details how it's so worse now and how it's so banjaxed now compared to before the election, the facts and the figures. They're never provided of course, just waffle on waffle.

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Very good link.

Eric a link specially for you:

http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

They made him governor of the central bank of ireland 3 months after writing this report for the world bank. He had been publically saying it was going to go wrong for a decade.

Competitive pressure on the leading banks to protect market share came especially from reckless expansion by one bank, Anglo-Irish (whose market share among Irish controlled retail banks jumped from 3 per cent to 18 per cent in a decade, as it grew its total portfolio by an average of 36 per cent real). Foreign controlled banks, especially the local subsidiary of HBOS also contributed.

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Eric a link specially for you:

http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

They made him governor of the central bank of ireland 3 months after writing this report for the world bank. He had been publically saying it was going to go wrong for a decade.

Yup. V good. Thanks for that K Bear.

Page 4 onwards. HBOS should be investigated -- People should be going to jail -- STILL NOTHING has been done - "Sir" James Crosby should be put on trial --- It looks to me like HBOS started the ball rolling that led to THE COLLAPSE of IRELAND. :angry: :angry:

SEE BELOW TOO about HBOS ---

Scandalous. Absolutely scandalous. :angry: :angry:

Edited by eric pebble

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Don't hold your breath. The Irish public are in general spectacularly stupid and also spectacularly docile, just like the British public in fact. They'll tolerate any amount of rubbish so long as they're scared enough by the alternative which will be portrayed as total financial system collapse - no money in the banks and tanks on the streets.

The one hope is that years of worsening austerity eventually get so bad that finally people cotton on to how they are being reamed by the elite and stand up and do something about it.

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Don't hold your breath. The Irish public are in general spectacularly stupid and also spectacularly docile, just like the British public in fact. They'll tolerate any amount of rubbish so long as they're scared enough by the alternative which will be portrayed as total financial system collapse - no money in the banks and tanks on the streets.

The one hope is that years of worsening austerity eventually get so bad that finally people cotton on to how they are being reamed by the elite and stand up and do something about it.

Sadly, your comment sums it up in a nutshell. As someone who lived in both countries during the false credit bubbles I witnessed the insane pressure put on people to buy into the houseowning dream. It was rampant greed driven individualism at its worst. Yet, the new Irish coalition is going to increase mortgage interest for those who bought between 2004 and 2008. Populist nonsense. These people were conned, yes. But to prevent this from happening again they should pay for their docility, arrogance, hubris and stupidity.Ultimately noone held a gun to their head. I'm afraid that until the negative equity generation will only learn their lesson when, and only when, they are turfed out onto the streets.

As with Britain , it became fashionable to sneer at people who lived in old style council houses or rented accommodation. Let the negative equity generation realise that only hard work and real money can allow you to own property, which in itself is a fairly limited concept. Maybe the state should reintroduce rent controlled social housing that can also return a profit. The anglo Irish myth of widespread home "ownership" is a myth and now is the time to consign it to history.

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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