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Ford Warns Electric Cars May Be Only For The Rich


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Absolutely. While most of our electricity is generated from fossil fuels, there is nothing green whatsoever about driving electric vehicles, and it is very annoying that they are marketed as such.

Are you really that short sighted? or are you pretending to be thick?

Electric Cars + Microgeneration + Energy Efficiency + Nuclear + Solar + Wind + Tidal + Geothermal = Green

Or do you like sending billions of pounds straight out to the Middle East every month, causing climate disruption, and wrecking our economy?

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Electric cars will never catch on. The best cars are the ones we drive now and the infrastructure is already there to service them. Batteries in contrast to hydrocarbons are high tech follies that fail at every hurdle... synthetic petrol/diesel will come on-line before we run out of the blackstuff, there was an article in our gospel yesterday 'DM' about a bacterium that will convert sunlight+CO2 or other new technologies that may do the same - even if it takes 10kwh of electricity to produce 1/10th of the equivalent in fuel it is still infinitely better that a £5-10k toxic battery that needs replacing every 3 years. Cars will become more efficient, journeys will be shorter and fewer.

Edited by tomposh101
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Are you really that short sighted? or are you pretending to be thick?

Electric Cars + Microgeneration + Energy Efficiency + Nuclear + Solar + Wind + Tidal + Geothermal = Green

Or do you like sending billions of pounds straight out to the Middle East every month, causing climate disruption, and wrecking our economy?

You misunderstand me. Obviously, if most of our electricity were generated from the sources you mention, electric cars would be a greener alternative. But it isn't, so they're not.

Edited by snowflux
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Electric cars will never catch on.
They won't so much 'catch on' as become the only option on the menu. Long before oil actually runs out, it will become expensive and scarce. The car of the future is likely to be electrically propelled. The range problem will be overcome by range-extender hybrids like the Chevrolet Volt - electric cars but with on-board generator powered by petrol or diesel engine. The Volt which does about 40 miles on battery power before the generator chips in to top up the battery.

Many people, including ourselves, would find an electric car would be ideal as our second car. That's the market where I think manufacturers should be aiming pure battery-electric non-hybrid cars. And local delivery vans too. Many companies operating fleets of delivery vans in big cities could switch to electric vans for part of their fleet for local use.

Oil will run low - estimates put that time as soon as 40 years away at current rates of use. Long before then it will become prohibitively expensive. There are no alternative fuels on the horizon - hydrogen takes as much energy to make as it yields in use.

As we move to renewable electricity generation, which we're doing already, the electric car will become genuinely 'green'.

30 years ago people said diesel cars would never catch on because they were slow, noisy and smelly. But now over 50% of new cars are diesel and even the Le Mans 24 hours has been won for the last few years by diesel cars. I think the same will happen with electric.

The indications are that batteries will last more than 3 years. I read that with early Toyota Prius models, which are now over 10 years old, battery performance is only down a few percent compared to new. I know the Prius isn't directly comparable to a pure electric car but it gives an idea. Besides, over 3 years, think of the cost and quantity of toxic chemicals that go into the fuel tank of a petrol or diesel car, not to mention the toxic chemicals that come out of the exhaust or the toxic chemicals use in the extraction, refining and transport of that fuel.

Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack
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Guest sillybear2

Are you really that short sighted? or are you pretending to be thick?

Electric Cars + Microgeneration + Energy Efficiency + Nuclear + Solar + Wind + Tidal + Geothermal = Green

Yeah, in theory, but the resulting electricity would be more expensive than petrol, in the real world renewables only contributed 8.6% to the grid last year. So if you factor in the additional demand from a few million electric cars you appreciate the sheer scale of work that needs to be done in order to make it truly 'green'. Obviously there's other factors to consider, like CO2 emissions and energy security, but without cheap oil supplies the era of Ballardian style mass motoring cannot be sustained. It would take a lot of expensive engineering to resurrect it.

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You misunderstand me. Obviously, if most of our electricity were generated from the sources you mention, electric cars would be a greener alternative. But it isn't, so they're not.

I think you misunderstand your own view.

You suggested electric cars shouldn't be marketed as green. Yet you then admit, if the energy sources were changed they would be. (and in case you've been living on Mars, the energy sources are being changed as we speak)

A car company like Tesla can only produce their link in the chain. You should direct you criticism to the energy companies for not transferring quickly enough to sustainable energy sources, not blame the electric car.

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Yeah, in theory, but the resulting electricity would be more expensive than petrol, in the real world renewables only contributed 8.6% to the grid last year. So if you factor in the additional demand from a few million electric cars you appreciate the sheer scale of work that needs to be done in order to make it truly 'green'. Obviously there's other factors to consider, like CO2 emissions and energy security, but without cheap oil supplies the era of Ballardian style mass motoring cannot be sustained. It would take a lot of expensive engineering to resurrect it.

So you think petrol is cheap do you?

Edited by worst time buyer
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So you think petrol is cheap do you?

In terms of its transportability, versatility and energy density it's basically irreplaceable that's why its price is so inelastic, it's almost priceless. Obviously you could substitute it with natural gas or coal to liquids but that doesn't really get you off the fossil fuel leash. Hydrogen doesn't move us forward either, it's either produced from natural gas or electrolysis, and that brings you straight back to the lack of renewable production.

Oil is still incredibly cheap when you consider the sheer amount of energy a barrel contains. Its price is set at the marginal cost of production rather than the true value of that energy. Colin Campbell reckons today's energy supplies are equivalent in energy terms to 22 billion slaves working around the clock.

If oil becomes truly scarce we can build out expensive renewables and nuclear (using lots of fossil fuels in the process), and a few rich people will be able to have their electric cars, but it's basically a totally different world from what we know today, people will be far more concerned about more pressing matters like food production, which is massively reliant on oil and natural gas based fertilizers, that's why biofuels are unviable. Knowing human nature it's clear there will be massive resource wars long before then.

In the short term if there was a huge spike in demand for eletricity to charge all these eletric cars it would be met by coal production, and that would be worse for the environment than simply using petrol. Especially if you can have hyper-efficient ICE cars like that VW.

Edited by sillybear2
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In terms of its transportability, versatility and energy density it's basically irreplaceable that's why its price is so inelastic, it's almost priceless. Obviously you could substitute it with natural gas or coal to liquids but that doesn't really get you off the fossil fuel leash. Hydrogen doesn't move us forward either, it's either produced from natural gas or electrolysis, and that brings you straight back to the lack of renewable production.

Oil is still incredible cheap when you consider the sheer amount of energy a barrel contains. Its price is set at the marginal cost of production rather than the true value of that energy. Colin Campbell reckons today's energy supplies are equivalent in energy terms to 22 billion slaves working around the clock.

If oil becomes truly scarce we can build out expensive renewables and nuclear (using lots of fossil fuels the process), and a few rich people will be able to have their electric cars, but it's basically a totally different world from what we know today, people will be far more concerned about more pressing matters like food production, which is massively reliant on oil and natural gas based fertilizers. Knowing human nature it's clear there will be massive resource war long before then.

Its "transportability"?? What all those Oil Rigs, drilling, pumping, super tankers, pipelines, ports, refineries, trucks, fuel depots, more trucks, petrol stations, consumers driving to petrol stations, then driving around with the petrol weighing down the car.......

Ever heard of an electric cable?

Edited by worst time buyer
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Its "transportability"?? What all those Oil Rigs, drilling, pumping, super tankers, pipelines, ports, refineries, trucks, fuel depots, more trucks, petrol stations, consumers driving to petrol stations, then driving around with the petrol wighing down the car.......

Ever heard of a electric cable?

Connected to a moving car or airplane? ;)

Oil is pretty special, it's a primary energy source with incredibe energy denstity in a liquid transportable form, our entire society is structured around a cheap supply of the stuff. I'm not saying that's good but that's just reality, even all those nice electric cars consume a load of the stuff in their production. How do you think they mine, process and transport all that copper and lithium for the batteries, or make the steel, plastics, paints, tyres, etc.

Face it, oil is like crack. Even the screen you're reading this on is made of it.

Edited by sillybear2
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Connected to a moving car or airplane? ;)

Oil is pretty special, it's a primary energy source with incredibe energy denstity in a liquid transportable form, our entire society is structured around a cheap supply of the stuff. I'm not saying that's good but that's just reality, even all those nice electric cars consume a load of the stuff in their production. How do you think they mine, process and transport all that copper and lithium for the batteries, or make the steel, plastics, paints, tyres, etc.

Face it, oil is like crack. Even the screen you're reading this on is made of it.

Connected to a moving car or airplane?

Yeah, google the term "battery" you might learn something. They have them mobile phones! (or do you use a petrol fuelled mobile?)

"electric cars consume a load of the stuff in their production"

Very true. all the more reason to use the remaining amount of CO2 we can emit into the atmosphere to make a transition to sustainable technologies.

"Oil is like crack"

And your solution is to just keep on taking crack, even though it is killing us. Good plan genius!

Edited by worst time buyer
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I work for a company developing products that use fuel cell technology

They too will try this on because very often, the technology doesn't perform as intended, it isn't the "green" technology it is touted as and it will go market so expensive, nobody will be able to afford to buy it without government subsidy (by taxing us of course). The company I work for was pressing the flesh with Gordon Brown and various govt quangos in an attempt to lobby them for 'favours.' I don't know where they stand with Shameron's coalition.

Fuel cells don't have to be used for transport. There's an underground coal gassification trial being done in the Firth of Forth right now that will produce hydrogen rich syngas. They intend to feed the hydrogen into fuel cells to generate leccy on-site and feed it directly into the grid. A rising oil price is good for ideas like that.

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Hydrogen doesn't move us forward either, it's either produced from natural gas or electrolysis, and that brings you straight back to the lack of renewable production.

No it isn't.

Although an electrolyser hooked up to a renewable leccy generator can be used to create H2 that can be burnt at peak times (or burnt in a car's conventional engine). We require a large installed base of renewables though to make such smoothing worthwhile on a nationwide scale - mostly wind, wave and tide in the UK.

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Connected to a moving car or airplane?

Yeah, google the term "battery" you might learn something. They have them mobile phones! (or do you use a petrol fuelled mobile?)

Yes, I'd learn that their energy density isn't so good, why after travelling 50 miles you need to start thinking about going back or finding a charging point, that's probably adequate most of the time, but hardly a great selling point. The range extenders obviously offer versatility, but you're lugging an awful lot of weight about, with batteries, motors, a combustion engine.

I'm just telling it like it is, we're doomed, your happy clappy stuff simply sugarcoats it B)

Edited by sillybear2
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Connected to a moving car or airplane?

Yeah, google the term "battery" you might learn something. They have them mobile phones! (or do you use a petrol fuelled mobile?)

"electric cars consume a load of the stuff in their production"

Very true. all the more reason to use the remaining amount of CO2 we can emit into the atmosphere to make a transition to sustainable technologies.

"Oil is like crack"

And your solution is to just keep on taking crack, even though it is killing us. Good plan genius!

No, the point is that weight for weight (and volume for volume), petrol, diesel, etc. contain many, many times more energy than any of these 'green' alternatives, electricity included. They are also easier to transport and use than denser sources like nuclear fission fuels.

For example:

- You won't get battery powered commercial aircraft because they simply wouldn't take off with all the weight of the batteries.

- You don't have nuclear powered cars because it's not possible to make the reactor small enough, not to mention the national security and health issues.

Even hybrids like the Prius have to sacrifice cabin space for the minimal batteries they use, and they're not even enough to power it for more than 30 or so miles!

Sticking you head in the sand is worse than admitting that the status quo is the best option we have at the moment.

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No it isn't.

Although an electrolyser hooked up to a renewable leccy generator can be used to create H2 that can be burnt at peak times (or burnt in a car's conventional engine). We require a large installed base of renewables though to make such smoothing worthwhile on a nationwide scale - mostly wind, wave and tide in the UK.

You can also design specialist reactors to make hydrogen, but storage is a pain, especially with cars. We can do a number of things, but it's not going to be cheap or readily available like petrol has been. If we've structured our entire global economy around that premise then it can only mean there will have to be some big changes, and mass motoring will probably be one of the first casualties, along with aviation, oh, and patio heaters. B)

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Yes, I'd learn that their energy density isn't so good, why after travelling 50 miles you need to start thinking about going back or finding a charging point, that's probably adequate most of the time, but hardly a great selling point. The range extenders obviously offer versatility, but you're lugging an awful lot of weight about, with batteries, motors, a combustion engine.

I'm just telling it like it is, we're doomed, your happy clappy stuff simply sugarcoats it B)

Firstly, where have you got this 50 mile range from? the Teslas can do 300 miles on a single charge. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/

Secondly, your point about energy density is incorrect, but even more startling is your failure to appreciate that the battery is re-usable. The barrel of oil/petrol can only be consumed once.

Thirdly, I'm not talking about hybrids. I'm talking about 100% electric. therefore no combustion engine or petrol tank at all. Like the Teslas or the Nissan Leaf etc.

and lastly. If you wish to believe we're all doomed, then fine, you can be a depressing fatalist. But why denigrate every effort of other people to find solutions?

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Firstly, where have you got this 50 mile range from? the Teslas can do 300 miles on a single charge. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/

Secondly, your point about energy density is incorrect, but even more startling is your failure to appreciate that the battery is re-usable. The barrel of oil/petrol can only be consumed once.

It's painfully true. Also, you're conflating a primary energy source with a storage device, it's like saying a petrol tank is re-usable. Where's the electricity coming from, renewables cost a fortune and don't even meet 10% of our current demand, it's going to take a half-century war like programme to change that. Maybe electric cars should be called "coal powered cars" until then. ;)

I'm sure a few rich people will have Tesla style cars, most people won't. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but if oil was so readily replaceable we'd have done it years ago, but instead we fight wars over it. Why do you think that is?

Edited by sillybear2
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Even hybrids like the Prius have to sacrifice cabin space for the minimal batteries they use, and they're not even enough to power it for more than 30 or so miles!
The whole point of the Prius is that it uses regenerative braking charge the battery, which provides power to assist the car next time it accelerates. So it saves on fuel in city driving, less so on long runs at steady cruising speeds. The Prius was never intended to have a long range running on battery only, in fact it can only do a mile or two electric only mode. Toyota were developing a plug-in version of the Prius, with bigger battery and the ability to charge it from the mains, which would give a battery range of something like 15 miles, but I don't think it's available. Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack
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You are all idiots. Have none of you seen Back to the Future ? The cars of the future will be run on rubbish we just ram straight into them. And they went in a time machine to the future so this is proven 100%. FACT. END OFF.

THIS ^

+238

Simple as that - and eco friendly too. The Dolphins will rejoice !!

great_scott_400.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1288171578161

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It all makes sense now, I see the error of my ways. Mouldy banana skins and dregs of coke will provide us with infinite energy, and cater for our every whim. Which neatly brings us back to the point about crack; John DeLorean was once caught trying to deal in a suitcase full of cocaine.

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It all makes sense now, I see the error of my ways. Mouldy banana skins and dregs of coke will provide us with infinite energy, and cater for our every whim. Which neatly brings us back to the point about crack; John DeLorean was once caught trying to deal in a suitcase full of cocaine.

Well, if your Mr Fusion can strip the hydrogen from water and organics and fuse it, you'd be able to drive a fair few miles on it. Probably a fair few times around the world but I can't be bothered working it out..

(Note: First invent 'Mr Fusion')

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Well, if your Mr Fusion can strip the hydrogen from water and organics and fuse it, you'd be able to drive a fair few miles on it. Probably a fair few times around the world but I can't be bothered working it out..

(Note: First invent 'Mr Fusion')

Maybe some old Italian guy will work it out by accident whilst squeezing his olives.

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The whole point of the Prius is that it uses regenerative braking charge the battery, which provides power to assist the car next time it accelerates. So it saves on fuel in city driving, less so on long runs at steady cruising speeds. The Prius was never intended to have a long range running on battery only, in fact it can only do a mile or two electric only mode. Toyota were developing a plug-in version of the Prius, with bigger battery and the ability to charge it from the mains, which would give a battery range of something like 15 miles, but I don't think it's available.

My point was that even adding this small store for the regenerated power makes the car less useful as, well, a car. Adding more batteries to enable a electric-only car means losing out on range, or boot space or passenger space or a mixture of all three.

For what it is, the Prius is great. I've heard anecdotes that in commuting or city traffic it can be better than even a diesel (from a taxi driver and one or two people who own one). But at the end of the day it still relies on petrol so it's not going to cure our dependence on fossil fuels.

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