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'bad Planning' Added Billions To Raf Typhoon Jets Cost

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995

The RAF's Typhoon fighter jets have each cost 75% more than predicted, according to a spending watchdog.

The National Audit Office said the increase was because of bad planning and over-optimism at the Ministry of Defence.

The number of planes ordered has been reduced, but the bill for development and production has risen by 20% to £20.2bn.

The government says it has learned lessons and has improved its practices.

The UK originally ordered 232 Eurofighter Typhoons in the mid-1980s, but this was reduced to 160.

I have a suggestion to improve practices whatever the govt comes up with as a cost prediction just double it. It will more than likely be in the right ball park.

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Heard this article on radio 4 this morning. It soon got me up, I was spluttering.

75% increase. Jesus f*cking wept.

The whole Eurofighter is out of date now, what is the point of it.

This country ponces about with pretensions of grandeur as though we are some sort of military might when we can't afford it. The whole edifice of our society is crumbling and here we are playing around with our "toys".... stupid.

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Not just government.

In Mrs Loos place of work, the MD, a parttime plant by his father, decided that a computer would make the place professional. he'd seen a booking system in a rival place.

They went for a demo.

they ordered a multi user version.

it arrived...it didnt do what THEY wanted.

nobody sat down and asked what it NEEDED to do...

It went live this week..having been amended time and time again over the course of a year, the MD finally came out of his office and asked Mrs loo to tell him if a room was free for a meeting.

she couldnt get the info....he scowls at her...goes to the manager...she couldnt get the info,,now he's really cross and rings the firm....they say the info he wants wasnt asked for and is not available without an extra.

Now, He blames the firm. the firm clearly had a box product which was ordered. The manager clearly NEVER sat down and specified what he wanted....or if he did, he did it with his own world view in mind.

I expect a similar thing happened with the Typhoon...there was no BRAIN behind the specification...a committee that is ever changing was in charge, none of whom was accountable or passionate about the project.

Indeed, how many public sector heads actually roll when a project is overspent, wrong or just abandoned....none I would wager...indeed, they add their "experience" to their CV like a triumph.

In the case of Mrs Loos firm, there are no heads rolling, but the mans profits are 10,000's down. HE is losing personally.

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Any idea how much he invested in this to lose money?

I dunno, but they had three boffins in to make it work yesterday....Ive done similar systems myself, Id guess £25K minimum.

This in a place where they wouldnt have a network so to see if soemone had paid previously, a manager had to be consulted and they would be able to "request" a position from the administrator...who never came out of his office either.

terrible place. management in fights between family members is the main problem.

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I dunno, but they had three boffins in to make it work yesterday....Ive done similar systems myself, Id guess £25K minimum.

This in a place where they wouldnt have a network so to see if soemone had paid previously, a manager had to be consulted and they would be able to "request" a position from the administrator...who never came out of his office either.

terrible place. management in fights between family members is the main problem.

I'm amazed they are still in business.

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I'm amazed they are still in business.

Rich Dad.....fast becoming Poor Dad.

the wages are rubbish too.

Took Mrs Loo out for a posh lunch some time ago, and the Boss and the Office man turned up for lunch.

we were there for three hours, so were they...working hard checking out the competition I imagine.

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Indeed, how many public sector heads actually roll when a project is overspent, wrong or just abandoned....none I would wager...indeed, they add their "experience" to their CV like a triumph.

In the case of Mrs Loos firm, there are no heads rolling, but the mans profits are 10,000's down. HE is losing personally.

I was involved (regrettably) with a major IT proj at a mid-sized mortgage company.

kind of mid-sized project that should have been knocked on the head within 4 years. I was there 6 and it never worked. Cost 10s of millions of £. The general sense of management malaise was tangible and had become so infectious that by the time I left, in 2006, nothing really worked, every major business operation seemed to run at a loss, but you would get bullied to within an inch if you raised objections to the management culture [they couldn't manage an exercise in changing lightbulbs quite frankly]

All the managers are still there f*cking things up, as far as they are concerned they are good at what they do. They used the BoE's special liquidity scheme. You, all of you, bailed them out when they should not be in business any more.

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Not just government.

In Mrs Loos place of work, the MD, a parttime plant by his father, decided that a computer would make the place professional. he'd seen a booking system in a rival place.

They went for a demo.

they ordered a multi user version.

it arrived...it didnt do what THEY wanted.

nobody sat down and asked what it NEEDED to do...

It went live this week..having been amended time and time again over the course of a year, the MD finally came out of his office and asked Mrs loo to tell him if a room was free for a meeting.

she couldnt get the info....he scowls at her...goes to the manager...she couldnt get the info,,now he's really cross and rings the firm....they say the info he wants wasnt asked for and is not available without an extra.

Now, He blames the firm. the firm clearly had a box product which was ordered. The manager clearly NEVER sat down and specified what he wanted....or if he did, he did it with his own world view in mind.

I expect a similar thing happened with the Typhoon...there was no BRAIN behind the specification...a committee that is ever changing was in charge, none of whom was accountable or passionate about the project.

Indeed, how many public sector heads actually roll when a project is overspent, wrong or just abandoned....none I would wager...indeed, they add their "experience" to their CV like a triumph.

In the case of Mrs Loos firm, there are no heads rolling, but the mans profits are 10,000's down. HE is losing personally.

Like the original specification for the Tornado. It was required to land in a certain distance. It had to meet that requirement with the runway covered in ice at the same time as the reverse thrust was degraded due to high temperature.

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I was involved (regrettably) with a major IT proj at a mid-sized mortgage company.

kind of mid-sized project that should have been knocked on the head within 4 years. I was there 6 and it never worked. Cost 10s of millions of £. The general sense of management malaise was tangible and had become so infectious that by the time I left, in 2006, nothing really worked, every major business operation seemed to run at a loss, but you would get bullied to within an inch if you raised objections to the management culture [they couldn't manage an exercise in changing lightbulbs quite frankly]

All the managers are still there f*cking things up, as far as they are concerned they are good at what they do. They used the BoE's special liquidity scheme. You, all of you, bailed them out when they should not be in business any more.

it is sad...its not about what you know...its who you know...Ive reported before that a firm I contracted to for about 10 years..never lost a file in all that time.

new managers, thought they knew better, contracted out my contracted out services.....been gone a year now and they lost all the emails on one branch....the automatic backup, no-one ever checked, never backed up.

They would go to the "expense" of a mirror, so lost it all.....GBs of emails over years, FSA overlooked, all gone for the sake of a £100 mirror.

But, they saved my costs and have a budget for the repairs and services....I did titter a bit schardenfreuderishly.....of course, the reason for the loss was "my" server....then again, 8 years ago, I dont remember offering a lifetime warranty against failure.

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I was involved (regrettably) with a major IT proj at a mid-sized mortgage company.

kind of mid-sized project that should have been knocked on the head within 4 years. I was there 6 and it never worked. Cost 10s of millions of £. The general sense of management malaise was tangible and had become so infectious that by the time I left, in 2006, nothing really worked, every major business operation seemed to run at a loss, but you would get bullied to within an inch if you raised objections to the management culture [they couldn't manage an exercise in changing lightbulbs quite frankly]

All the managers are still there f*cking things up, as far as they are concerned they are good at what they do. They used the BoE's special liquidity scheme. You, all of you, bailed them out when they should not be in business any more.

just heard a bit more.

they dont record prduct types with the customer record...its done at the time of payment...which is manual....so when a client pays, they have to enter all the payment details and what it was for into the computer, with only reference to the client in the form.

I said this is surely a mistake...and no...thats how they do it......so they have a pile of PDQ forms, which they clip to the reciept produced by the computer payment entry....fracking mad. Apparaently it would have been too hard to have each client with a record so they are in the main, recorded as cash.

course, they want mail shots too.

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just heard a bit more.

they dont record prduct types with the customer record...its done at the time of payment...which is manual....so when a client pays, they have to enter all the payment details and what it was for into the computer, with only reference to the client in the form.

I said this is surely a mistake...and no...thats how they do it......so they have a pile of PDQ forms, which they clip to the reciept produced by the computer payment entry....fracking mad. Apparaently it would have been too hard to have each client with a record so they are in the main, recorded as cash.

course, they want mail shots too.

the triumph of bodging over planning

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Not just government.

In Mrs Loos place of work, the MD, a parttime plant by his father, decided that a computer would make the place professional. he'd seen a booking system in a rival place.

They went for a demo.

they ordered a multi user version.

it arrived...it didnt do what THEY wanted.

nobody sat down and asked what it NEEDED to do...

It went live this week..having been amended time and time again over the course of a year, the MD finally came out of his office and asked Mrs loo to tell him if a room was free for a meeting.

she couldnt get the info....he scowls at her...goes to the manager...she couldnt get the info,,now he's really cross and rings the firm....they say the info he wants wasnt asked for and is not available without an extra.

Now, He blames the firm. the firm clearly had a box product which was ordered. The manager clearly NEVER sat down and specified what he wanted....or if he did, he did it with his own world view in mind.

I expect a similar thing happened with the Typhoon...there was no BRAIN behind the specification...a committee that is ever changing was in charge, none of whom was accountable or passionate about the project.

Indeed, how many public sector heads actually roll when a project is overspent, wrong or just abandoned....none I would wager...indeed, they add their "experience" to their CV like a triumph.

In the case of Mrs Loos firm, there are no heads rolling, but the mans profits are 10,000's down. HE is losing personally.

The Army did exactly the same when they bought the apache.

Bought a perfectly good, tried and tested gunship from the yanks and then tried to replace loads of the yank kit and bolt on unknown uk sh1t. Suffice to say that the whole fleet was grounded for a long time while millions and millions were thrown at it to make something workable.

Had someone been involved in the process from the beginning that knew anything about helicopters rather than some dik in a suit that only knows how to use a calculator then maybe things would have worked as one would expect.

MOD procurement is a joke from the very start to the very end, and through every single modification an update for the years after.

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The Army did exactly the same when they bought the apache.

Bought a perfectly good, tried and tested gunship from the yanks and then tried to replace loads of the yank kit and bolt on unknown uk sh1t. Suffice to say that the whole fleet was grounded for a long time while millions and millions were thrown at it to make something workable.

Had someone been involved in the process from the beginning that knew anything about helicopters rather than some dik in a suit that only knows how to use a calculator then maybe things would have worked as one would expect.

MOD procurement is a joke from the very start to the very end, and through every single modification an update for the years after.

As I understand it, if you buy a yank aircraft your not allowed to use alot of the electronics, the yanks wont allow you. You are forced to create/write your own.

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As I understand it, if you buy a yank aircraft your not allowed to use alot of the electronics, the yanks wont allow you. You are forced to create/write your own.

simple message from the MOD....if you want a sale...supply what we want...if not, that nice Russian will supply.

Public sector buyers are rubbish.

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My grandfather's sheffield metal works business made some ancillary stuff for the typhoon - they paid him nearly three times the original price, he made alot of money through the deal.

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Guest eight

My grandfather's sheffield metal works business made some ancillary stuff for the typhoon - they paid him nearly three times the original price, he made alot of money through the deal.

Even more profitable than the Iraqi Supergun eh?

eight

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Even more profitable than the Iraqi Supergun eh?

eight

Some of the forgings to the supergun were finished in sunni Birmingham. I am led to believe it was an engineer based here who tipped off customs as the rifling was most suspicious :D

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Some of the forgings to the supergun were finished in sunni Birmingham. I am led to believe it was an engineer based here who tipped off customs as the rifling was most suspicious :D

LMAO

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the first batch of tornadoes that flew had no radar , because ferranti marconi couldn't get it to work , so they flew with a lump of concrete and lead shot in the nose cone to balance the CoG

they were known as blue circle fighters , these were the air interceptor version (not air superiority because it flew like a truck as it had to be a bomber as well , so it was at a major disadvantage against a full on dogfighter) a stand-off missile platform

In order to fit more missiles they removed the cannon , and thus totally relied on their missiles , which couldn't be aimed of fired !!!

master_blue_circle_l.jpg

The only thing that would work were the fire and forget sidewinders , but if the tornado ever got that close to a proper fighter it would already be f%@ked ....

So basically we had no air defence for years ...Our biggles were flying around shouting bang bang at each other over the radio

Should have kept the spitfires

Farce

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Not just the British military aircraft industry, all of the British aircraft industry.

I think this could be extended to probably all military orders worldwide. Very few projects come in on budget and achieve the aims.

The only weapon I can think of which has achieved what it set out to do is the AK47, a very simple weapon that's deadly and easy to fix and repair.

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the first batch of tornadoes that flew had no radar , because ferranti marconi couldn't get it to work , so they flew with a lump of concrete and lead shot in the nose cone to balance the CoG

they were known as blue circle fighters , these were the air interceptor version (not air superiority because it flew like a truck as it had to be a bomber as well , so it was at a major disadvantage against a full on dogfighter) a stand-off missile platform

In order to fit more missiles they removed the cannon , and thus totally relied on their missiles , which couldn't be aimed of fired !!!

master_blue_circle_l.jpg

The only thing that would work were the fire and forget sidewinders , but if the tornado ever got that close to a proper fighter it would already be f%@ked ....

So basically we had no air defence for years ...Our biggles were flying around shouting bang bang at each other over the radio

Should have kept the spitfires

Farce

What about the Lighting was that a better aircraft?

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  • 311 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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