Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Guest The Relaxation Suite

The Heart Of The Problem?

Recommended Posts

Guest The Relaxation Suite

Living standards will fall everywhere, but of particular note will be Britain and the US. Britain, because it has no natural resources and a massive population density problem, and the US because its cost of living was so low for so long. Americans are going to find it hard adjusting to European prices - and worse, which will surely happen over the next few years. And if we look at France it has the same population as Britain but is more than twice as big - this would be the equivalent of Britain having a population of less than 30 million people!

If people could get their heads around longer-time frame causal factors they would find life much easier to understand. The British enjoyed their high standard of living because of the industrial revolution, and specifically how that drove what was in essence the massive pillaging of third world resources and labour. The classical empires of Rome and Greece were founded and maintained on slave labour, the empire of Britain was founded on the industrial revolution and cheap third world labour, the American empire was founded on its massive land area and natural resources, and more lately success in war and money printing.

Sadly for the British, there is no more empire. There are no more Punjab coolies to dig up gold nuggets, there are no more Lesotho tribesmen to send down the diamond mines, and there are no more land grabs in New South Wales and Alberta. No more sugar plantations in Queensland or the Caribbean. All of this is what trickled down into the broader British economy.

If one looks carefully, on can see the trend of British decline starts exactly when the empire begins to cost money to run rather than something that brings benefits. By the early 20th Century the German and American economies were already more efficient then the British Empire, then WWI and WWII stripped Britain of its last wealth. By the 1960s the empire was effectively done and dusted, and the rot gets worse. It tries to reinvent itself in opposite terms to the empire with the Swinging Sixties etc. Look at the 1970s - disaster. The so-called "rise" in the 1980s was just an illusion purchased by taking out more debt against the future. Look at Reagan's deficit in the US.

What is left now in Britain is a massive population made possible by ininterupted habitation of the British Isles but also the empire, but now it is left without that empire to sustain it. So this is why living standards must and will drop, and the job of government is to manage that as smoothly as possible.

In other words, recovery is a relative term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Relaxation Suite

Land area isn't really the biggest problem, look at the GDP per capita of singapore.

Livings standards will fall though, because of peak oil.

You want to live in Singapore? I could live there for 6 months, maybe 12 months, but not for life. Look at Japan - 120 million people mainly on the main island which is slightly smaller than Britain. Japanese and Singaporean people have adjusted reasonably well to this squashing up, but their ideology is ENTIRELY different to that of the British, whi like their lifestyles Australian or Texas-style - lots of big 4x4s and twin driveways.

Trouble ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Relaxation Suite

Japan has a natural source of lithium in the water supply. A naturally occuring anti depressant makes any life more tolerable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5251365/Natural-levels-of-lithium-in-drinking-water-help-reduce-suicides.html

We're just tax dairy cows to be farmed and managed and drugged, in other words. Time to start buying lithium shares.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Britain as a political construct is a mangy old dog, all it knows is that it want's to be fed and cleared up after, and all it does is attract parasites to the home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living standards will fall everywhere, but of particular note will be Britain and the US. Britain, because it has no natural resources and a massive population density problem, and the US because its cost of living was so low for so long. Americans are going to find it hard adjusting to European prices - and worse, which will surely happen over the next few years. And if we look at France it has the same population as Britain but is more than twice as big - this would be the equivalent of Britain having a population of less than 30 million people!

If people could get their heads around longer-time frame causal factors they would find life much easier to understand. The British enjoyed their high standard of living because of the industrial revolution, and specifically how that drove what was in essence the massive pillaging of third world resources and labour. The classical empires of Rome and Greece were founded and maintained on slave labour, the empire of Britain was founded on the industrial revolution and cheap third world labour, the American empire was founded on its massive land area and natural resources, and more lately success in war and money printing.

Sadly for the British, there is no more empire. There are no more Punjab coolies to dig up gold nuggets, there are no more Lesotho tribesmen to send down the diamond mines, and there are no more land grabs in New South Wales and Alberta. No more sugar plantations in Queensland or the Caribbean. All of this is what trickled down into the broader British economy.

If one looks carefully, on can see the trend of British decline starts exactly when the empire begins to cost money to run rather than something that brings benefits. By the early 20th Century the German and American economies were already more efficient then the British Empire, then WWI and WWII stripped Britain of its last wealth. By the 1960s the empire was effectively done and dusted, and the rot gets worse. It tries to reinvent itself in opposite terms to the empire with the Swinging Sixties etc. Look at the 1970s - disaster. The so-called "rise" in the 1980s was just an illusion purchased by taking out more debt against the future. Look at Reagan's deficit in the US.

What is left now in Britain is a massive population made possible by ininterupted habitation of the British Isles but also the empire, but now it is left without that empire to sustain it. So this is why living standards must and will drop, and the job of government is to manage that as smoothly as possible.

In other words, recovery is a relative term.

A pretty good summary of where we are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Relaxation Suite

Was feeling a bit down today, but that's cheered me up no end! :(

It's just a theory. :lol: The Briitsh also happen to be very innovative and adaptive - how will they get out of this one, is what I guess I am asking!

Edited by Tecumseh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I converse with a good friend in Argentina. Currently food prices are high, but with men like mysen they could staff the factories. Life could be very good indeed! Especially in an area of increasing prosperity.

Low population denstiy = desirableph34r.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Relaxation Suite

I converse with a good friend in Argentina. Currently food prices are high, but with men like mysen they could staff the factories. Life could be very good indeed! Especially in an area of increasing prosperity.

Low population denstiy = desirableph34r.gif

You're saying perhaps the British would be better off emigrating to Argentina? Not a bad idea really - great weather and low population density. Also, there is a small tradition of Brits emigrating there already, especially with the Welsh in Patagonia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just a theory. :lol: The Briitsh also happen to be very innovative and adaptive - how will they get out of this one, is what I guess I am asking!

If you have to ask ...

Same thing goes for the US. Lots of assertions about their innovation and adaptation, but no sign of that in their elections.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're saying perhaps the British would be better off emigrating to Argentina? Not a bad idea really - great weather and low population density. Also, there is a small tradition of Brits emigrating there already, especially with the Welsh in Patagonia.

The flight is expensive compared to the Euro baccy trip, but if only one way, very good value. I have accommodation, my friend even lays his sister on as a wife, and she is ok too.

I should go?

hows this crisis going to pan out?

Injin's theory is plausible..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Relaxation Suite

If you have to ask ...

Same thing goes for the US. Lots of assertions about their innovation and adaptation, but no sign of that in their elections.

A good point. My concern at this point is that anything "innovative" will simply involve poor people being taxed more while the Blair Class bail out to their Caribbean mansions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sadly for the British, there is no more empire. There are no more Punjab coolies to dig up gold nuggets, there are no more Lesotho tribesmen to send down the diamond mines, and there are no more land grabs in New South Wales and Alberta. No more sugar plantations in Queensland or the Caribbean. All of this is what trickled down into the broader British economy.

Correct

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Relaxation Suite

Correct

So the question is, where will future wealth come from? The only resource thar Britain how is its labour, but this will have to be priced below that of Chinese and SE Asian labour in order to be competitive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living standards will fall everywhere, but of particular note will be Britain and the US. Britain, because it has no natural resources and a massive population density problem, and the US because its cost of living was so low for so long. Americans are going to find it hard adjusting to European prices - and worse, which will surely happen over the next few years. And if we look at France it has the same population as Britain but is more than twice as big - this would be the equivalent of Britain having a population of less than 30 million people!

If people could get their heads around longer-time frame causal factors they would find life much easier to understand. The British enjoyed their high standard of living because of the industrial revolution, and specifically how that drove what was in essence the massive pillaging of third world resources and labour. The classical empires of Rome and Greece were founded and maintained on slave labour, the empire of Britain was founded on the industrial revolution and cheap third world labour, the American empire was founded on its massive land area and natural resources, and more lately success in war and money printing.

Sadly for the British, there is no more empire. There are no more Punjab coolies to dig up gold nuggets, there are no more Lesotho tribesmen to send down the diamond mines, and there are no more land grabs in New South Wales and Alberta. No more sugar plantations in Queensland or the Caribbean. All of this is what trickled down into the broader British economy.

If one looks carefully, on can see the trend of British decline starts exactly when the empire begins to cost money to run rather than something that brings benefits. By the early 20th Century the German and American economies were already more efficient then the British Empire, then WWI and WWII stripped Britain of its last wealth. By the 1960s the empire was effectively done and dusted, and the rot gets worse. It tries to reinvent itself in opposite terms to the empire with the Swinging Sixties etc. Look at the 1970s - disaster. The so-called "rise" in the 1980s was just an illusion purchased by taking out more debt against the future. Look at Reagan's deficit in the US.

What is left now in Britain is a massive population made possible by ininterupted habitation of the British Isles but also the empire, but now it is left without that empire to sustain it. So this is why living standards must and will drop, and the job of government is to manage that as smoothly as possible.

In other words, recovery is a relative term.

This post gets my vote, for the "HOUSE PRICE CRASH - BEST POST OF THE YEAR 2011".

An enjoyable read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll have to adopt a similar economic strategy that South Korea adopted around the mid 1960s onwards, when it faced a more dynamic North Korea that actually had a bigger economy (as hard to believe nowadays) and a militarily defanged, but unapologetic booming Japan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I agree with this.

Look at any period photo or illustration of workers in 18th/19th Century factories. How many black faces to you see? The Industrial revolution was done with white de-facto slavery, with a bit of Methodism thrown in to cheer people up and have them wish for their rewards once they experienced the glorious jailbreak of the grave.

Also, many historians believe the Empire was actually a net drain on the Country's resources - having vast armies patrol the world and it's seas was relatively more expensive then than now. Think of all the countries who are now as rich or moreso per capita than we. Most did it minus the expense and hassle of Empire. How? By minding their own bloody business and getting on with building their own population's quality of life, as we should be doing right now.

So all in all, this is just another dose of white-guilt-self-flagellation. If we have allowed ourselves to descend into such masochistic self pity, we deserve all we get.

All IMHO of course.

Edited by tahoma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The OP is missing the point. The gold, diamonds and oil that the British 'stole' were there all along waiting to be discovered and used. What prevented the Indians, Arabs or Lesotho tribesmen from mining it themselves, funding their own development and perhaps even creating their own empires? Why is it that when the bad British pull out of a country, hand rule back, the country invariably slips backwards in terms of development? Is there any country in the world that has improved since the British pulled out? Only one I can think of is Singapore. Every other country has suffered, usually with the infrastructure left in place by the British crumbling into disorder.

The trouble is what once made Britain great is being diluted. A Chinese person, a Pakistani or an Indian can now come to the UK, live here for a few years and become 'British' despite having a completely different set up cultural values (which begs the question if I was to go live in China would I become Chinese?). In addition, our working classes whose efforts in the mines, factories and ship yards used to power the British economy are now sitting idle, having nothing more productive to do than to spawn children and watch Jeremy Kyle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The OP is missing the point. The gold, diamonds and oil that the British 'stole' were there all along waiting to be discovered and used. What prevented the Indians, Arabs or Lesotho tribesmen from mining it themselves, funding their own development and perhaps even creating their own empires? Why is it that when the bad British pull out of a country, hand rule back, the country invariably slips backwards in terms of development? Is there any country in the world that has improved since the British pulled out? Only one I can think of is Singapore. Every other country has suffered, usually with the infrastructure left in place by the British crumbling into disorder.

The trouble is what once made Britain great is being diluted. A Chinese person, a Pakistani or an Indian can now come to the UK, live here for a few years and become 'British' despite having a completely different set up cultural values (which begs the question if I was to go live in China would I become Chinese?). In addition, our working classes whose efforts in the mines, factories and ship yards used to power the British economy are now sitting idle, having nothing more productive to do than to spawn children and watch Jeremy Kyle.

+1

And in answer to your question, Chinese citizenship is only available to those of Chinese descent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Britain, because it has no natural resources and a massive population density problem,

Using that logic, Holland's ******ed and we should all move to Antarctica

The most efficient places in terms of using resources tend to be the most densely populated places, especially cities. This is why city states such as Hong Kong, Singapore - and London - boom and sparsely populated areas such as the Highlands, Australian Outback etc struggle - that and the fact those places just aren't conducive to hosting large populations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living standards will fall everywhere, but of particular note will be Britain

Sounds about right to me. To put it another way, we're going to have to work a lot harder if we want to maintain living standards. We are now competing with overseas labour - we don't have to match the lowest cost, but we will need to add value. This is fair and just. It's going to be a shock, but it's long overdue.

The fly in the ointment is that the elite seem determined to hold onto their stash, and that just isn't going to work...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One big part of the legacy of the empire is very much still present and still making us rich. The fact that London is still the world's main place for finance. If somebody in africa wants to build a mine or somebody in south america wants to build an army, the financing of it almost always comes out of London. Notice how the other financial cities are former colonies with close ties to the London finance industry.

Obviously finance / banking has a pretty low rep due to the last few years and especially on these boards and with the internet conspiracy theorist community but it seems to me that we have swoped a physical empire (with all the resources that takes to maintain) for a financial one. We have been able to let our 'working' class sit idle because of the profit we make out of this. It is actually quite a sensible move from a national interest perspecitve. We get to either sit in nice shiney offices or at home watching jeremy kyle rather than do any serious work.

Hong Kong and Singapore (where I am), which have been mentioned here have achieved the success they have in a similar way - being the gateway through which London's banking industry finances Asian growth (and takes a nice cut from the top). I think of UK as really just an off-shore bankiing city with a bit of land to the north that it has to look after.

Following the crisis the world needs re-financing and London is the place where it will happen. emerging markets will boom as living standards there increase but that is good news for the london financial services industry not bad news.

The real threat to our living standards comes if we loose this or push it away from the UK. I never understand all the anger about banking bonuses (I'm not a banker but I sell into that business), rather than being angry why don't people just come and work for them and pick up a bonus themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.