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How Much Forged Money In Circulation?

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Cashless society

A good way of reducing fraud would be to stop using coins and notes altogether according to economist and author John Kay, who thinks that cash breeds crime, from trading stolen goods to drug deals.

"Our whole social and economic lives would be transformed if we didn't have cash. In the long run it would be in government's and banks' interests to move to a cashless society," he said.

:lol:

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Cashless society

A good way of reducing fraud would be to stop using coins and notes altogether according to economist and author John Kay, who thinks that cash breeds crime, from trading stolen goods to drug deals.

"Our whole social and economic lives would be transformed if we didn't have cash. In the long run it would be in government's and banks' interests to move to a cashless society," he said.

:lol:

Would drug dealers cease to be if they couldn't get paid in cash?

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Would drug dealers cease to be if they couldn't get paid in cash?

A lot of pubs accept debit cards now, though for some reason they always have machines that take an age to process your payment, even if you can remember your mates pin number whilst half cut.

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...is that why my £1 coins keep being rejected in the car park ticket machines?

I did get landed with a forged £10 note once could not be certain what shop or where it was passed to me....the question is what can you do with it.....surely by trying to spend it knowing it to be a counterfeit is committing an offence, or do you plead ignorance and see if you can get away will passing it as real cash.....or hand it in to a bank or police station, where you will have it taken......

...a case again of the innocent paying the cost. ;)

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Would drug dealers cease to be if they couldn't get paid in cash?

More likely that drugs would become a form of cash in and of themselves.

Cash cannot be abolished. Society cannot go cashless. It's been tried. People simply barter, a new most commonly traded item is found and then theres a new cash.

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More likely that drugs would become a form of cash in and of themselves.

Cash cannot be abolished. Society cannot go cashless. It's been tried. People simply barter, a new most commonly traded item is found and then theres a new cash.

I would say people are already are doing this, they always have done.....this is what 'the big society' is all about. ;)

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More likely that drugs would become a form of cash in and of themselves.

Cash cannot be abolished. Society cannot go cashless. It's been tried. People simply barter, a new most commonly traded item is found and then theres a new cash.

Has any society ever tried to go to electronic only payments?

Strangely enough, if it did, it is possible that a competing form of electronic payment might succeed the intended one if it were seen as more convenient or simply enabled users of it to avoid tax.

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...is that why my £1 coins keep being rejected in the car park ticket machines?

I did get landed with a forged £10 note once could not be certain what shop or where it was passed to me....the question is what can you do with it.....surely by trying to spend it knowing it to be a counterfeit is committing an offence, or do you plead ignorance and see if you can get away will passing it as real cash.....or hand it in to a bank or police station, where you will have it taken......

...a case again of the innocent paying the cost. ;)

Spending the note even WITHOUT knowing is an offence.

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Has any society ever tried to go to electronic only payments?

Strangely enough, if it did, it is possible that a competing form of electronic payment might succeed the intended one if it were seen as more convenient or simply enabled users of it to avoid tax.

Electronic payments don't provide any inforamtion about resources, they are analogous to other systems of allocation with no price mehcanism such as command economies have, and yes every communist dictator has tried them.

Put simply, you can't have an unreal money with no value or real presence, it doesn't provide any information or benefit to it's users. it can be forced or willed into being politically, but it won't work practically.

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Spending the note even WITHOUT knowing is an offence.

...looking back it was that bad a forgery you would have to be not paying attention to accept it as a £10 note....must have been somewhere else that day......still got it BTW, one day it will be the value it is today worthless. ;)

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...looking back it was that bad a forgery you would have to be not paying attention to accept it as a £10 note....must have been somewhere else that day......still got it BTW, one day it will be the value it is today worthless. ;)

did it have in Injin where the Queen should have been?

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Electronic payments don't provide any inforamtion about resources, they are analogous to other systems of allocation with no price mehcanism such as command economies have, and yes every communist dictator has tried them.

Put simply, you can't have an unreal money with no value or real presence, it doesn't provide any information or benefit to it's users. it can be forced or willed into being politically, but it won't work practically.

I thought that the vast majority of payments in the UK, and perhaps the world, were electronic now rather than cash. And this is through choice. Electronic money is instantly accountable and traceable, and massively scalable, something which gives those who transact in it huge advantages over those that try and count out wads of notes.

And given that markets instantly price resources against electronic money denominated in many currencies, there seems to be no doubt that the information given by electronic money is better than any other form has ever given money in the history of the world.

Money doesnt therefore, need presence.

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I thought that the vast majority of payments in the UK, and perhaps the world, were electronic now rather than cash.

Yes, and the economy is ******ed.

And this is through choice.

We've no idea about that, but it's unlikely.

Electronic money is instantly accountable and traceable, and massively scalable, something which gives those who transact in it huge advantages over those that try and count out wads of notes.

notes aren't money either. They are better than electronic forms, havng at l;east some infomration contained within them - paper is a commodity after all and so is ink.

And given that markets instantly price resources against electronic money denominated in many currencies, there seems to be no doubt that the information given by electronic money is better than any other form has ever given money in the history of the world.

Money doesnt therefore, need presence.

See - greatest depression world has ever seen, HPI, failing states, national bankrupcies etc

6 or 7 years ago you could make these arguments. Not right now.

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The problem with all these security features is not if a lab can tell the difference, but if a retailer can. If the shop keeper has no means to tell if a note is a forgery, then he must reject all notes.

The real agenda here is the elimination of cash, they would forge themselves to achieve this objective. If everything is held in computers, there is nowhere to hide. Individuals can be switched off by closing all their accounts preventing them from buying anything including travel tickets.

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The problem with all these security features is not if a lab can tell the difference, but if a retailer can. If the shop keeper has no means to tell if a note is a forgery, then he must reject all notes.

The real agenda here is the elimination of cash, they would forge themselves to achieve this objective. If everything is held in computers, there is nowhere to hide. Individuals can be switched off by closing all their accounts preventing them from buying anything including travel tickets.

How will a shopkeeper know if electronic money is right?

He's got no background check.

Future is retro, future is metals. They have atomic weights that can't be fudged.

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Yes, and the economy is ******ed.

We've no idea about that, but it's unlikely.

notes aren't money either. They are better than electronic forms, havng at l;east some infomration contained within them - paper is a commodity after all and so is ink.

See - greatest depression world has ever seen, HPI, failing states, national bankrupcies etc

6 or 7 years ago you could make these arguments. Not right now.

You may be right about the economy.

I am pretty sure though that most people do now choose to spend with debit or credit cards. It does have a lot of convenience, and sellers seem too happy to oblige. It looks like consent to me.

And notes and coins certainly were money, people were happy to accept them before the electronic age, no doubt about that either.

I am not sure about your point about depressions and the like. Business cycles have existed since the beginning of history. Electronic money wont change that.

And I dont understand your point about 6 or 7 years ago. Electronic money has become increasingly popular since then.

Now electronic money might come under threat if there is inflation. However, that isnt the fault of electronic money per se, but due to the over issuance of it. To be a money, that money has to be scarce in order to allow it to retain value. Value retention is a key attribute of any type of money. Electronic money can retain value if its issue is controlled. The barbarous relic does have an advantage here, in that governments cannot over issue it. But just because electronic money can be over issued, doesnt mean that it will be.

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You may be right about the economy.

I am pretty sure though that most people do now choose to spend with debit or credit cards. It does have a lot of convenience, and sellers seem too happy to oblige. It looks like consent to me.

Sure, but until the government leaves the market we can't say.

And notes and coins certainly were money, people were happy to accept them before the electronic age, no doubt about that either.

They were promises for money, not money itself (and when convertability was rejected, they had to declare martial law.) Shortly afterwards there was a world war or two as people tried to get their actual losses back.

I am not sure about your point about depressions and the like. Business cycles have existed since the beginning of history. Electronic money wont change that.

No, they haven't. Business cycles arrived with central banking. The US had no central bank, had no business cycles for about 100 years.

And I dont understand your point about 6 or 7 years ago. Electronic money has become increasingly popular since then.

I meant that the evidence it doesn't work is everywhere around you. if I am right and as money gets more unreal and divorced from anything real it gets harder to plan, the economy should tank. While correlation isn't causation, theres enough historical evidence to make the claim and the connection looks strong.

Now electronic money might come under threat if there is inflation. However, that isnt the fault of electronic money per se, but due to the over issuance of it. To be a money, that money has to be scarce in order to allow it to retain value. Value retention is a key attribute of any type of money. Electronic money can retain value if its issue is controlled. The barbarous relic does have an advantage here, in that governments cannot over issue it. But just because electronic money can be over issued, doesnt mean that it will be.

Electronic money is infinite. Even a toddler can produce infinite amounts of it.

That's why it won't work. You'll need a totalitarian dictatorship and total corruption of the courts/legal system to make it sortof work - but this just proves the point about price signals. See mises - why socialism and central planning must always fail.

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Guest sillybear2

The commercial banks have legally counterfeited 97% of our money supply by conflating 'bank credit' with legal tender, and they're fretting over a few dodgy coins? Jesus. :rolleyes:

So the FRB system can counterfeit billions, blow huge bubbles, produce huge crashes, socialise losses; and that's just fine, like an unfortunate natural disaster outside of everyones' control, rather than the product of a system that is rigged to inevitably f**k up by design. However, the Beeb wants people to root around their purses and check somebody hasn't passed a sly £1 coin on to them, ya know, like robbed them. :lol:

about £200 billion according to the last MPC minutes.

No, that's good counterfeiting, opposed to bad counterfeiting where the proceeds end up in the hands of a bunch of money grabbing thugs... oh.

Edited by sillybear2

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Sure, but until the government leaves the market we can't say.

The government interferes in many things, but I dont see the government interfering at all in the way we choose how to store value and spend value.

They were promises for money, not money itself (and when convertability was rejected, they had to declare martial law.) Shortly afterwards there was a world war or two as people tried to get their actual losses back.

It doesnt matter what they were. People accepted and still accept them as payment. That is all that is needed to define them as money.

No, they haven't. Business cycles arrived with central banking. The US had no central bank, had no business cycles for about 100 years.

Business cycles go back as far as history itself. I recall that story of Joseph and the Pharoah and the good call over seven lean years and seven fat years. It does appear that the abundance or lack of money can affect the economy, but so can shocks to the food supply, wars, or just the general mood of the populace. Whatever the reason, the economies have a tendency to ebb and flow.

King Canute had trouble stopping the tide coming in, but he was wise and trying to show those around him the limits of his power. More recently a less wise leader, Gordon Brown, tried to show the world that he had abolished boom and bust. Are you saying that you have a new plan to return to a mythical business cycleless era?

I meant that the evidence it doesn't work is everywhere around you. if I am right and as money gets more unreal and divorced from anything real it gets harder to plan, the economy should tank. While correlation isn't causation, theres enough historical evidence to make the claim and the connection looks strong.

Electronic money is infinite. Even a toddler can produce infinite amounts of it.

Plan? I thought that market economies are all about the absence of planning?

And yes, I agree that you can create a lot of electronic money (not infinite by the way, that is impossible), but just because you can, doesnt mean that you should, and certainly doesnt mean that those who can will do so. The belief that electronic money will be kept scarce enables electronic credit to be used as a money.

That's why it won't work. You'll need a totalitarian dictatorship and total corruption of the courts/legal system to make it sortof work - but this just proves the point about price signals. See mises - why socialism and central planning must always fail.

I dont think any corrupt government or legal system can force a money on the population that they dont want to use. The market is too powerful to subvert. It will create and use the best form of money available to it, be that cash, gold, cigarettes, or electronic money. Paypal for example, no one legislated to make that happen, and there it is.

Characteristics of money with regard to electronic money.

1) durability - check, electronic money endures.

2) portability - check, fits nicely into the pocket. You can carry a lot more around than you can in pound coins, thats for sure.

3 ) divisibility - check, the most divisible form of money yet used.

4 ) uniformity - check, perfectly uniform.

5 ) limited supply - check, try increasing the supply and see how far you get. I will concede that it is possible to massively increase the supply if control is in the wrong hands. There are lots of reasons why supply will be limitied though.

6 ) Acceptability - check, suppliers love the feeling of that money going straight to their bank account, even if they have to pay a fee.

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Guest sillybear2

Would drug dealers cease to be if they couldn't get paid in cash?

They'd simply switch to Injin Dollars of course :P

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A lot more than 2.8% of pound coins are counterfeit, I don't believe that number for a second. If I have 6 or 7 pound coins in my wallet and I bother to check there will usually be one that is an obvious forgery.

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The government interferes in many things, but I dont see the government interfering at all in the way we choose how to store value and spend value.

That's because either your income is related to banking or you are not paying attention.

It doesnt matter what they were. People accepted and still accept them as payment. That is all that is needed to define them as money.

Not so. in order for something to be money it must in and of itself have it's own price signal. That is, it must provide information about the real, physical world.

Business cycles go back as far as history itself. I recall that story of Joseph and the Pharoah and the good call over seven lean years and seven fat years. It does appear that the abundance or lack of money can affect the economy, but so can shocks to the food supply, wars, or just the general mood of the populace. Whatever the reason, the economies have a tendency to ebb and flow.

business cycle refers specifically to the action of business, of money. No central banks, no business cycle.

King Canute had trouble stopping the tide coming in, but he was wise and trying to show those around him the limits of his power. More recently a less wise leader, Gordon Brown, tried to show the world that he had abolished boom and bust. Are you saying that you have a new plan to return to a mythical business cycleless era?

I have a complete absence of plan that will do that.

Plan? I thought that market economies are all about the absence of planning?

And yes, I agree that you can create a lot of electronic money (not infinite by the way, that is impossible), but just because you can, doesnt mean that you should, and certainly doesnt mean that those who can will do so. The belief that electronic money will be kept scarce enables electronic credit to be used as a money.

Anuyone can, even a toddler, they can only be prevented. They can only be prevented using force and that means we have left the world of markets and entered the world of coercion. Coerced systems always fail, this one will be no different.

I dont think any corrupt government or legal system can force a money on the population that they dont want to use. The market is too powerful to subvert. It will create and use the best form of money available to it, be that cash, gold, cigarettes, or electronic money. Paypal for example, no one legislated to make that happen, and there it is.

Then you have never read any history.

Characteristics of money with regard to electronic money.

1) durability - check, electronic money endures.

2) portability - check, fits nicely into the pocket. You can carry a lot more around than you can in pound coins, thats for sure.

3 ) divisibility - check, the most divisible form of money yet used.

4 ) uniformity - check, perfectly uniform.

5 ) limited supply - check, try increasing the supply and see how far you get. I will concede that it is possible to massively increase the supply if control is in the wrong hands. There are lots of reasons why supply will be limitied though.

6 ) Acceptability - check, suppliers love the feeling of that money going straight to their bank account, even if they have to pay a fee.

Price signal - fail. There is no price signal, as it's unreal, non existent. It's the same problem as paper money, but on steroids.

No worries tho, the PTB want this, they'll get it, and if you survive the following devastation you can remember what i said.

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      • down 5% +
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