Pole Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I really like HPC together with its Scottish section. However, to be honest, I've never met a single person in real life in Scotland who would openly (as myself) state that high house prices are totally bad for the Scottish economy - by making us less competetive and counter-productive (hard-earned cash should be spend on other things than mortgages). When I talk to people I use all sorts of arguments, and yet the best I get from them is 'well, maybe you have a point here...but I don't know... blablabla' What's your experience? Is Scotland totally in love with high-house prices??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwatkins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I really like HPC together with its Scottish section. However, to be honest, I've never met a single person in real life in Scotland who would openly (as myself) state that high house prices are totally bad for the Scottish economy - by making us less competetive and counter-productive (hard-earned cash should be spend on other things than mortgages). When I talk to people I use all sorts of arguments, and yet the best I get from them is 'well, maybe you have a point here...but I don't know... blablabla' What's your experience? Is Scotland totally in love with high-house prices??? A Scot who thinks? Is there such a person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 A Scot who thinks? Is there such a person? You must visit Scotland one day - half of the things that you use daily was invented by Scots! By the way, you haven't read my question in full... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Many who are younger feel this way. Don't think they shout as loud as those desperate for their wee overpriced pokey flat they bought 3 years ago not to have collapsed in value. Have a look at the comments section in the Evening News or Scotsman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurag Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hiya Being a HPCer is difficult in all regions of the UK, Scotland isn't unique. I walk among high-house-price-believing-economically-incompetent-fanny-baws every day, and I'm pretty sure most people who frequent this site have similar frustrations. L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly_Boy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I'm from Southern England, however I came accross one the other day. They fully understood that if prices fall, even though the value of their current house will fall, the value of their next house will fall further, thus making the move cheaper! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hiya Being a HPCer is difficult in all regions of the UK, Scotland isn't unique. I walk among high-house-price-believing-economically-incompetent-fanny-baws every day, and I'm pretty sure most people who frequent this site have similar frustrations. L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'm from Southern England, however I came accross one the other day. They fully understood that if prices fall, even though the value of their current house will fall, the value of their next house will fall further, thus making the move cheaper! And are they enjoying their new job, educating the southern english about this fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abroad Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 A Scot who thinks? Is there such a person? My advice is don't take Pole on that invite to visit someday, your piss poor attitude will get you in trouble. In answer to the OP, high house prices and negative equity are still viewed by most folks outside of Edinbugh as a London/SE of England issue. Most people I ask expect prices to stagnate but not fall...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 My advice is don't take Pole on that invite to visit someday, your piss poor attitude will get you in trouble. In answer to the OP, high house prices and negative equity are still viewed by most folks outside of Edinbugh as a London/SE of England issue. Most people I ask expect prices to stagnate but not fall...... Yes but in 3 years what has been the change ? Most people expected them to: Soar Rise Go a little up Stagnate ....... What is coming next ? Seems a pretty clear rend to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abroad Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Yes but in 3 years what has been the change ? Most people expected them to: Soar Rise Go a little up Stagnate ....... What is coming next ? Seems a pretty clear rend to me. Catalyst for forced sales is still needed. Low interest rates and reluctance of banks to act is slowing the whole train wreck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You must visit Scotland one day - half of the things that you use daily was invented by Scots! So they say, but fortunately you can get them all on a single tea towel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abroad Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 So they say, but fortunately you can get them all on a single tea towel... Tarmac.....TV....telephone.....penicillin......antiseptic ......use google and look up the enlightenment.........Scotland was the intellectual powerhouse of Europe before they got bogged down in a bad marriage...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Tarmac.....TV....telephone.....penicillin......antiseptic ......use google and look up the enlightenment.........Scotland was the intellectual powerhouse of Europe before they got bogged down in a bad marriage...... Oh dear, here we again, you must indeed have the tea towel. This is off-topic so I'm not going to get into a spat. Just want to deal with the sweeping generalisation. Tarmac, invented by the Welshman, Edgar Purnell Hooley. Are you thinking of John MacAdam, who invented the MacAdamised surface, which were ok for horses and carriages. If you are claiming inventing roads, the Romans pipped you, although the Chinese were probably ahead of everyone. Alexander Graham Bell got the patent in, but hotly disputed for inventing the telephone. The American genius Philo Farnsworth invented the fully electronic television. Joseph Lister, the Englishman, invented antiseptic, although he did his work in Edinburgh. I'm bored now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Regardless a lot of great things were invented by Scots or at least in Scotland - cheer up matey-ho! Hurrah for Scotland! Edited February 12, 2011 by guitarman001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buying Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Credit where credit is due, the English did invent the tea towel though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggee Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Och well - despite owning a flat that is going down in value as I type this I agree 100%. Lower property prices would be a good thing for all (except initially for those who like me bought at the top). After about two years of disagreeing with my boss I now wholeheartedly agree with him that a US style property tax is the way forward. This would replace council tax and would basically be rates all over again based upon the rateable value of a property. Likely impact for cheaper homes would be a reduction compared to council tax, normal family homes would be about the same and big old gaffs would get hit hit. Suspect it would work out best as a flat tax of somewhere around 0.5% of the property's value. I'd do away with any exemptions for unoccupied properties/second homes & indeed single occupancy - don't see why they shouldn't pay full whack although you could keep them for unemployed/students etc. Doing the maths £1,169 is the current band D charge for Edinburgh compared with an average house price of £214,000 so at 0.5% this would be £1,070 per annum so not a million miles away. Obviously establishing rateable values would be a great job creator which might help out the economy for a bit! Once you'd established the rateable values you'd stick with them and then adjust the percentage. As far as I can see, the benefit of such a system is that people living in modest £100,000 flats would see their council tax decline whereas your £1m houses would end up at approx £5,000. Bad news is if you live in a £1m house but a lot of people that live in big houses seem to rattle around in them once the kids have moved on so this would hopefully see Scotland's housing stock used more efficiently. An added benefit is in places like London where huge homes used by foreigners for a few months a year would be especially large contributors. Non-doms watch out! I'd almost be tempted to take it a step further and increase the annual property tax reducing or even eliminating stamp duty as it is a crazy tax that actually inhibits freedom of movement - why should someone whose work makes them move have to pay stamp duty when someone who stays put does not? I've suggested this to a number of friends who all slated me - the crazy thing is I'm not even left-wing in my politics yet this gets viewed as some extreme socialist policy. If I ever get round to buying the big house I'm looking for it would cost me but in 30 years time it would incentivize me to move on and out (assuming kids been and gone!) and let someone else use such a house. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Och well - despite owning a flat that is going down in value as I type this I agree 100%. Lower property prices would be a good thing for all (except initially for those who like me bought at the top). After about two years of disagreeing with my boss I now wholeheartedly agree with him that a US style property tax is the way forward. This would replace council tax and would basically be rates all over again based upon the rateable value of a property. Likely impact for cheaper homes would be a reduction compared to council tax, normal family homes would be about the same and big old gaffs would get hit hit. Suspect it would work out best as a flat tax of somewhere around 0.5% of the property's value. I'd do away with any exemptions for unoccupied properties/second homes & indeed single occupancy - don't see why they shouldn't pay full whack although you could keep them for unemployed/students etc. Doing the maths £1,169 is the current band D charge for Edinburgh compared with an average house price of £214,000 so at 0.5% this would be £1,070 per annum so not a million miles away. Obviously establishing rateable values would be a great job creator which might help out the economy for a bit! Once you'd established the rateable values you'd stick with them and then adjust the percentage. As far as I can see, the benefit of such a system is that people living in modest £100,000 flats would see their council tax decline whereas your £1m houses would end up at approx £5,000. Bad news is if you live in a £1m house but a lot of people that live in big houses seem to rattle around in them once the kids have moved on so this would hopefully see Scotland's housing stock used more efficiently. An added benefit is in places like London where huge homes used by foreigners for a few months a year would be especially large contributors. Non-doms watch out! I'd almost be tempted to take it a step further and increase the annual property tax reducing or even eliminating stamp duty as it is a crazy tax that actually inhibits freedom of movement - why should someone whose work makes them move have to pay stamp duty when someone who stays put does not? I've suggested this to a number of friends who all slated me - the crazy thing is I'm not even left-wing in my politics yet this gets viewed as some extreme socialist policy. If I ever get round to buying the big house I'm looking for it would cost me but in 30 years time it would incentivize me to move on and out (assuming kids been and gone!) and let someone else use such a house. Thoughts? why did you buy at the peak of the market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggee Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 why did you buy at the peak of the market? Wanted a bigger place - not a fan of renting as the rental stock in Edinburgh isn't exactly great. Thankfully sold my 1-bed flat for a silly price after buying my current 2-bed flat for a silly price. Current flat is much sillier though - same on a £psf basis but twice the size... However lived in the 1-bed by myself, Fiancee, now wife, moved in with me not long after buying the 2-bedder. And she has a lot of shoes. My wife and I would like to buy a big old house at some point - we're actually in a position to do so but looking at the prices of the sort of houses we're in the market for, some 3-4 years on, the peak is still here in terms of vendors' expectations and there is very little on the market to choose from so we're kind of sitting and waiting. No hurry as no tadpoles yet. Given that the house we'd be buying would likely cost more than twice what we'd be selling and I kind of figured that we'd be moving on at some point I went for quality of life in having a home over taking a view on market prices. Thought process was "If they fall, so be it - our next property will be cheaper. If they increase (and I didn't really think this was likely), then that will be more to pay. If they stay flat then it doesn't really make any difference". Do I regret buying at the peak? Not really - I've lost a bit of money but not a massive amount in the grand scheme of things. My wife and I live well within our means. This may sound crazy but I think of the place I live as being a home, not an investment decision or a statement about myself - I'm aware this is a luxury many people don't have. However we're only on this planet for so long and I'd like to live comfortably if I can do so. I bought my first flat in 2002 and at the time it seemed a prodigious amount of money and I expected to lose money on it. However it was a quality of life decision as I couldn't justify to myself paying rent when I could stay at home with my parents for free. My parents might have had other thoughts on this though... If I'd acted on the view that 2002 prices were crazy and they had to come down then I'd either still be living at home with my parents (and likely be a SINBAD) or in rented accommodation having been kicked out by them. Almost nine years on prices haven't come down and although my gut is that they have to, politically the government will do everything it can to stop this happening such as money printing and low interest rates so it could continue to be a long wait. I prefer having my home how I like it and not being in a position that I can get kicked out with minimal notice which happened to my wife when she was renting. So even although I think prices are still too high, if the right house for us comes on the market and we can afford it without stretching ourselves then I would buy it happy in the knowledge that it should be a home for life. If it goes down in price, it goes down in price. I know this is a somewhat sacrilegious school of thought for this forum but there is more to life than being right on calling the top and bottom of the property cycle. I'd just like to live my life please and think that an annual property tax on the value of a home is one of the best ways to allow as many people as possible (given the woeful nature of the country's housing supply compared to the genuine demand for it) to do so too. I'm a capitalist, not a communist but I do believe in fair allocation of resources and given our desire to all live in the same place, the land that Edinburgh sits on is a resource to me and the 450,000 other souls that live here. I think that families living in modest homes should not have to contribute as much as e.g. a single person living in a "mansion" given that they use less of this resource yet have more need. I also think it should be a conscious decision for people to choose to live in a house that they have perhaps no real need for but the current council tax regime does not act as a big enough push factor for this decision to be big enough. Take my parents. I love them to bits. They bought their house in 1971 (a 3 bed semi) when my mum was pregnant as she didn't fancy going up the three flights of stairs in their tenement with a pram and infant. 40 years on they are still in the same house although it is now a 4-bed semi as they extended it so my brother and I could have our own bedrooms. It cost them £7,500 with an 80% mortgage which was 2.5x my dad's salary at that time. I have friends doing similar jobs to what my dad did (all his life) and they are on £25,000-£30,000. I reckon my parent's home is worth about £400,000-450,000 maybe £50,000 less unextended i.e. if my friends had an £80,000 deposit a mortgage of 10x my friends' salaries or so. Not going to happen! Maybe I'm harsh but I think it's perfectly fair for my parents to have the option of downsizing and paying less of a property tax but if they want to stay put, paying more. There is no way they will live out their lives in their current house as eventually the stairs will get to them so it would make sense for them to free up this resource now (a four bedroom family home) and move to somewhere more modest e.g. a 2-bed flat (with an elevator). As it is they'll possibly stay put another 10+ years. I could offer them a direct swap but surely it makes sense to have a taxation system that nudges people in the right way as opposed to the current system with the PPR taxation relief whereby inflation in the long run incentivises people to stay too long in houses that are two big for them. I guess nobody cares given that the only comment on my previous post was from what I could tell a somewhat sarcastic "why did you buy at the peak"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Och well - despite owning a flat that is going down in value as I type this I agree 100%. Lower property prices would be a good thing for all (except initially for those who like me bought at the top). After about two years of disagreeing with my boss I now wholeheartedly agree with him that a US style property tax is the way forward. This would replace council tax and would basically be rates all over again based upon the rateable value of a property. Likely impact for cheaper homes would be a reduction compared to council tax, normal family homes would be about the same and big old gaffs would get hit hit. Suspect it would work out best as a flat tax of somewhere around 0.5% of the property's value. I'd do away with any exemptions for unoccupied properties/second homes & indeed single occupancy - don't see why they shouldn't pay full whack although you could keep them for unemployed/students etc. Doing the maths £1,169 is the current band D charge for Edinburgh compared with an average house price of £214,000 so at 0.5% this would be £1,070 per annum so not a million miles away. Obviously establishing rateable values would be a great job creator which might help out the economy for a bit! Once you'd established the rateable values you'd stick with them and then adjust the percentage. As far as I can see, the benefit of such a system is that people living in modest £100,000 flats would see their council tax decline whereas your £1m houses would end up at approx £5,000. Bad news is if you live in a £1m house but a lot of people that live in big houses seem to rattle around in them once the kids have moved on so this would hopefully see Scotland's housing stock used more efficiently. An added benefit is in places like London where huge homes used by foreigners for a few months a year would be especially large contributors. Non-doms watch out! I'd almost be tempted to take it a step further and increase the annual property tax reducing or even eliminating stamp duty as it is a crazy tax that actually inhibits freedom of movement - why should someone whose work makes them move have to pay stamp duty when someone who stays put does not? I've suggested this to a number of friends who all slated me - the crazy thing is I'm not even left-wing in my politics yet this gets viewed as some extreme socialist policy. If I ever get round to buying the big house I'm looking for it would cost me but in 30 years time it would incentivize me to move on and out (assuming kids been and gone!) and let someone else use such a house. Thoughts? I would fully support your 'property tax' idea - sounds much more sensible than the CT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abroad Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Oh dear, here we again, you must indeed have the tea towel. This is off-topic so I'm not going to get into a spat. Just want to deal with the sweeping generalisation. I'm bored now... only sweeping generalisation I saw was below .....but you of course didn't see that at all........ ,,,,Can you fit the Bank of England in a tea towel A Scot who thinks? Is there such a person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle doodle Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Suspect it would work out best as a flat tax of somewhere around 0.5% of the property's value. Doing the maths £1,169 is the current band D charge for Edinburgh compared with an average house price of £214,000 so at 0.5% this would be £1,070 per annum so not a million miles away. Obviously establishing rateable values would be a great job creator which might help out the economy for a bit! Once you'd established the rateable values you'd stick with them and then adjust the percentage. Suits me, my hoose is less than 200k and somehow I'm in band E.... Thing that pisses me off is the additional water charges on top of that being based on council tax bandings. Surely they should do it on number of bathrooms? That would piss off the ensuite bathroom brigade who stick a toilet in every cupboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fflump Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Suits me, my hoose is less than 200k and somehow I'm in band E.... Thing that pisses me off is the additional water charges on top of that being based on council tax bandings. Surely they should do it on number of bathrooms? That would piss off the ensuite bathroom brigade who stick a toilet in every cupboard. Are you saying that folk with more bathrooms urinate more often? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1888 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I doubt Scotland is any different to the rest of the UK those who have property want it to rise those who dont want it to fall (in general) My recollection from a few years ago when I last visited Scotland was they were as enthralled with their high house prices as everyone else oh and I have a teatowel for sale if anyones interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Wanted a bigger place - not a fan of renting as the rental stock in Edinburgh isn't exactly great. Thankfully sold my 1-bed flat for a silly price after buying my current 2-bed flat for a silly price. Current flat is much sillier though - same on a £psf basis but twice the size... However lived in the 1-bed by myself, Fiancee, now wife, moved in with me not long after buying the 2-bedder. And she has a lot of shoes. My wife and I would like to buy a big old house at some point - we're actually in a position to do so but looking at the prices of the sort of houses we're in the market for, some 3-4 years on, the peak is still here in terms of vendors' expectations and there is very little on the market to choose from so we're kind of sitting and waiting. No hurry as no tadpoles yet. Given that the house we'd be buying would likely cost more than twice what we'd be selling and I kind of figured that we'd be moving on at some point I went for quality of life in having a home over taking a view on market prices. Thought process was "If they fall, so be it - our next property will be cheaper. If they increase (and I didn't really think this was likely), then that will be more to pay. If they stay flat then it doesn't really make any difference". Do I regret buying at the peak? Not really - I've lost a bit of money but not a massive amount in the grand scheme of things. My wife and I live well within our means. This may sound crazy but I think of the place I live as being a home, not an investment decision or a statement about myself - I'm aware this is a luxury many people don't have. However we're only on this planet for so long and I'd like to live comfortably if I can do so. I bought my first flat in 2002 and at the time it seemed a prodigious amount of money and I expected to lose money on it. However it was a quality of life decision as I couldn't justify to myself paying rent when I could stay at home with my parents for free. My parents might have had other thoughts on this though... If I'd acted on the view that 2002 prices were crazy and they had to come down then I'd either still be living at home with my parents (and likely be a SINBAD) or in rented accommodation having been kicked out by them. Almost nine years on prices haven't come down and although my gut is that they have to, politically the government will do everything it can to stop this happening such as money printing and low interest rates so it could continue to be a long wait. I prefer having my home how I like it and not being in a position that I can get kicked out with minimal notice which happened to my wife when she was renting. So even although I think prices are still too high, if the right house for us comes on the market and we can afford it without stretching ourselves then I would buy it happy in the knowledge that it should be a home for life. If it goes down in price, it goes down in price. I know this is a somewhat sacrilegious school of thought for this forum but there is more to life than being right on calling the top and bottom of the property cycle. I'd just like to live my life please and think that an annual property tax on the value of a home is one of the best ways to allow as many people as possible (given the woeful nature of the country's housing supply compared to the genuine demand for it) to do so too. I'm a capitalist, not a communist but I do believe in fair allocation of resources and given our desire to all live in the same place, the land that Edinburgh sits on is a resource to me and the 450,000 other souls that live here. I think that families living in modest homes should not have to contribute as much as e.g. a single person living in a "mansion" given that they use less of this resource yet have more need. I also think it should be a conscious decision for people to choose to live in a house that they have perhaps no real need for but the current council tax regime does not act as a big enough push factor for this decision to be big enough. Take my parents. I love them to bits. They bought their house in 1971 (a 3 bed semi) when my mum was pregnant as she didn't fancy going up the three flights of stairs in their tenement with a pram and infant. 40 years on they are still in the same house although it is now a 4-bed semi as they extended it so my brother and I could have our own bedrooms. It cost them £7,500 with an 80% mortgage which was 2.5x my dad's salary at that time. I have friends doing similar jobs to what my dad did (all his life) and they are on £25,000-£30,000. I reckon my parent's home is worth about £400,000-450,000 maybe £50,000 less unextended i.e. if my friends had an £80,000 deposit a mortgage of 10x my friends' salaries or so. Not going to happen! Maybe I'm harsh but I think it's perfectly fair for my parents to have the option of downsizing and paying less of a property tax but if they want to stay put, paying more. There is no way they will live out their lives in their current house as eventually the stairs will get to them so it would make sense for them to free up this resource now (a four bedroom family home) and move to somewhere more modest e.g. a 2-bed flat (with an elevator). As it is they'll possibly stay put another 10+ years. I could offer them a direct swap but surely it makes sense to have a taxation system that nudges people in the right way as opposed to the current system with the PPR taxation relief whereby inflation in the long run incentivises people to stay too long in houses that are two big for them. I guess nobody cares given that the only comment on my previous post was from what I could tell a somewhat sarcastic "why did you buy at the peak"... Wasn`t meant to be sarcastic, genuinely interested,this is the biggest credit/housing bubble in history, I am interested in peoples reasoning for buying back in. Edinburgh IMO will be one of the cities to really implode, values here have gone beyond all sensible reason. You don`t sound too overleveraged, I suppose that is crucial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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