If You Had The Chance (2)...

[guitarman001]

... If you had the chance to increase your salary by 40%, would you take it depending on these circumstances:

-1st job worked for 2.5 years

-2nd job worked for near 2 years

The worry being that it looks like company hopping solely for the money... ??

[guitarman001]

Something to think on... current job is AWESOME and would be loathe to leave for now, but have had some good advice from others regarding how to 'move up' in my career - in any case I've e-mailed the agent regarding this position (it's through agent, yes...!) - trying to weasel out who the company is and exactly where. But I fill the job requirements and it is in Scotland, and pays a lot!

[guitarman001]

Go for it. It's no longer a case of 20 years in one job working your way up the ladder. If your employer values you he will up his offer.

Bugger is I'm only 4 years into the profession and feel they gave me a decent offer in the first place - would feel like I'd be pushing it asking for more - would also feel a bit of a t0sser for not staying for about 4 years which was the plan... (always thought that would look good on the CV, sticking to a company for 4+ years shows that you can really get by in the job and gives you a good time to learn). Don't want them to think poorly of me but if I were lucky enough to bag this other job I would be loaded before my time lol... To be honest it just costs so much to live here and with the current situation (high house prices compared to income) I'm never getting anywhere. Plus the work is a bit thin on the ground right now..

I've heard it can be tough to move up the salary ladder in the same job (in particular at my current one also, but then who DOESN'T say that about their job!). I'm also wary of moving to a stinker of a company (last one was real pressure) - I am thinking of waiting until my annual review mid-year to see what happens. Ideally I'd get a pay rise on top of an inflation-linked rise.. if not I'd be dissapointed (it being nearly 2 years and all...).

Consequently, I've been re-learning German in the possibility of a move over there. Life is short and I want to do well (and not be beholden to a slave mortgage here). I'm getting more and more serious about this now.

EDIT - basically the salary move would be from approx 30k to 42k, and I'm only 26 y/o! But then to be honest this is what I think engineers should be getting paid.. In the end I may wait to see how I progress at my review and what future work there will be. The big plus point is I currently love the job and the people - a lot to be said for that.

[ccc]

Bugger is I'm only 4 years into the profession and feel they gave me a decent offer in the first place - would feel like I'd be pushing it asking for more - would also feel a bit of a t0sser for not staying for about 4 years which was the plan... (always thought that would look good on the CV, sticking to a company for 4+ years shows that you can really get by in the job and gives you a good time to learn). Don't want them to think poorly of me but if I were lucky enough to bag this other job I would be loaded before my time lol... To be honest it just costs so much to live here and with the current situation (high house prices compared to income) I'm never getting anywhere. Plus the work is a bit thin on the ground right now..

I've heard it can be tough to move up the salary ladder in the same job (in particular at my current one also, but then who DOESN'T say that about their job!). I'm also wary of moving to a stinker of a company (last one was real pressure) - I am thinking of waiting until my annual review mid-year to see what happens. Ideally I'd get a pay rise on top of an inflation-linked rise.. if not I'd be dissapointed (it being nearly 2 years and all...).

Consequently, I've been re-learning German in the possibility of a move over there. Life is short and I want to do well (and not be beholden to a slave mortgage here). I'm getting more and more serious about this now.

EDIT - basically the salary move would be from approx 30k to 42k, and I'm only 26 y/o! But then to be honest this is what I think engineers should be getting paid.. In the end I may wait to see how I progress at my review and what future work there will be. The big plus point is I currently love the job and the people - a lot to be said for that.

Don't be shy. This is the easist time in any employment to get a pay rise. Ask for the very top and see what happens. These people will have a budget - if they want you they want you.

And what about all the HPC chat re. engineers not being paid enough in this country !? 42k is not shabby for 26 YO - as you say.

Any idea what the new working environment will be like ? As you love the place you are in just now would be shitty to go to somewhere that you hated. But such is life and you could ask to go infor a few hours one day to have a nosey ?

[LuckyOne]

... If you had the chance to increase your salary by 40%, would you take it depending on these circumstances:

-1st job worked for 2.5 years

-2nd job worked for near 2 years

The worry being that it looks like company hopping solely for the money... ??

I am not for a minute suggesting that this is the case here but it often takes two years for a person who interviews well to be shown to be incapable of actually doing the job. It took me quite a few years to work this out ....

I would worry more about this perception than the risk that people think that you are job hopping for the money.

That said, opportunity doesn't come knocking all that often. If you were to make another move now, my recommendation would be to only do so if you are absolutely certain that you want to stay there for at least five years to remove the risk of any future misconceptions about the "two years to discover incompetence after a successful interview" rule of thumb.

[ken_ichikawa]

I feel the same way. I have a chance to increase my pay by 25%. Problem is I've only been at my current place for 7 months. I was at the place before for 1 month, the place before that 2 years and the place before that 16 months.

I've applied of course, because I'd rather be in a position to say no than to not have any choice at all. But it's a fairly big rise not only because it is within 8 miles of where I live (which saves £1700 in petrol + £300 in tyres). But I'm a bit iffy about it as I may well end up working for a psychopath.

[md23040]

Something to think on... current job is AWESOME and would be loathe to leave for now, but have had some good advice from others regarding how to 'move up' in my career - in any case I've e-mailed the agent regarding this position (it's through agent, yes...!) - trying to weasel out who the company is and exactly where. But I fill the job requirements and it is in Scotland, and pays a lot!

In my experience agents are the biggest bull5h1tters on the planet so be careful. If however the company is reputable that are offering the position then go for it.

For your line of work Germany is where the action is and it would be a good carreer move to consider there. Quite a sizeable part of my time is spent there with my own business interests and can not commend the place and its business ethos highly enough.

[JoeDavola]

I'm a software engineer - just under 4.5 years postrgrad experience. Been with the same company for the past 3 and a half years.

I know people with the same amount of experience (time wise) as me who are earning loads more (and have a better skillset) because they hop from company to company.

The ones on the biggest money never stay any more than 2 years in one place. Plenty of them have a couple of places on their CV where they only stayed a year or less.

This is not frowned upon, as long as you can list your achievements during that time. In fact it can make you look like a very driven person, which in fact you would have to be to go through the hassle of changing jobs so often. But it's the easiest way to the big money, assuming that you are good at your job and have a skillset that is in demand.

[wherebee]

The ones on the biggest money never stay any more than 2 years in one place. Plenty of them have a couple of places on their CV where they only stayed a year or less.

Moving between companies is never seen a a bad thing by employers as long as you stay more than 18 months and can show promotion/skills increase reasons for each move.

Loyalty is seldom rewarded.

[spord]

I've done exactly this.

First job 2.5 years. Left for 20% pay increase and much nicer location and working conditions.

Second job just under 2 years. Left for 46% pay increase plus better bonuses (i.e. some bonus instead of none) and no change to location or conditions.

Have been in third job for nearly two years now. No plans to move as I like the area and own a house here now. In my industry, there aren't that many places I can work, and I'd have to be offered a *very* large pay increase (100% at least) to sweeten the aggravation of working in London.

I'd consider working in Germany or Canada but otherwise I'll stay put for now. Or change industries if I get bored.

I see no problem in 'company hopping' for the money. Nobody is going to argue with a move for significantly more cash. You're worth what someone will pay you and I don't think loyalty will get you very far in any industry... to some extent anyway. You have to weigh up whether any increase is worth it to you. 40% extra is definitely worth it if the conditions and environment are similar or better.

[OnionTerror]

I feel the same way. I have a chance to increase my pay by 25%. Problem is I've only been at my current place for 7 months. I was at the place before for 1 month, the place before that 2 years and the place before that 16 months.

I've applied of course, because I'd rather be in a position to say no than to not have any choice at all. But it's a fairly big rise not only because it is within 8 miles of where I live (which saves £1700 in petrol + £300 in tyres). But I'm a bit iffy about it as I may well end up working for a psychopath.

But would they expect an extra 25% "output" from you, such as doing 25% more hours (unpaid overtime) or the benefits included aren't as good?

[ken_ichikawa]

But would they expect an extra 25% "output" from you, such as doing 25% more hours (unpaid overtime) or the benefits included aren't as good?

Nope hours are the same actually less because the commute is 20 mins (via bicycle) rather than 1h 15 mins (a traffic issue not a distance issue).

Also benefits? I've never been given any perks of benefits in a company before, I've completed 10000s of P11ds in a past career but never actually received one.

The thing is I know I'm underpaid for the job I do (not accountancy). Since I do everything on the person and responsibilities spec by Wednesday, Thurs and Fri I'm given stuff not in my job spec to do to keep me occupied. As I've said before the office is really funny as the average age appears to be 50 and these folks use pen and paper to work things out most of them don't even have computers either. While I use excel spreadsheets to quickly work things out.

The primary perk is that the boss at my current place isn't a climber boss. The kind that had to be ruthless and backstab his way to the top. He is more of a rupert, the company was handed to him by his dad. Which means he is much easier to get on with and my time there he hasn't once tried to find something to use against me like all my prior bosses. Although this doesn't sound like much (say I have a chip on me shoulder if you want) the horrible bullying I saw and felt in my last roles makes me cautious.

[OnionTerror]

Nope hours are the same actually less because the commute is 20 mins (via bicycle) rather than 1h 15 mins (a traffic issue not a distance issue).

Also benefits? I've never been given any perks of benefits in a company before, I've completed 10000s of P11ds in a past career but never actually received one.

The thing is I know I'm underpaid for the job I do (not accountancy). Since I do everything on the person and responsibilities spec by Wednesday, Thurs and Fri I'm given stuff not in my job spec to do to keep me occupied. As I've said before the office is really funny as the average age appears to be 50 and these folks use pen and paper to work things out most of them don't even have computers either. While I use excel spreadsheets to quickly work things out.

The primary perk is that the boss at my current place isn't a climber boss. The kind that had to be ruthless and backstab his way to the top. He is more of a rupert, the company was handed to him by his dad. Which means he is much easier to get on with and my time there he hasn't once tried to find something to use against me like all my prior bosses. Although this doesn't sound like much (say I have a chip on me shoulder if you want) the horrible bullying I saw and felt in my last roles makes me cautious.

I think ultimately you have to do what makes you happy... A lot ppl purely chase the money...others chase the stability - a career if you wish to call it (a phrase that I don't believe in, personally). Up to a couple of years ago, I worked for a well known defence company for nearly 6 years...I stayed far too long, the company was dreadfully run, and it treated it's staff appallingly, but I really liked working with the staff I worked with...that's probably why I stayed that long.. Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

[ken_ichikawa]

I think ultimately you have to do what makes you happy...

Yeah I know, I don't believe in careers either. I'm going on a recon adventure in 4 days time (can't wait!) if this works out and I return alive it is 5-6 months hard saving before going out on a mega adventure. These adventures in life are pretty much what I live for!

[ccc]

Yeah I know, I don't believe in careers either. I'm going on a recon adventure in 4 days time (can't wait!) if this works out and I return alive it is 5-6 months hard saving before going out on a mega adventure. These adventures in life are pretty much what I live for!

Where you going ? Knowing you it's probably Egypt !!

[ken_ichikawa]

Where you going ? Knowing you it's probably Egypt !!

Nah, the recon adventure is closer to home. The one at the end of the year is further afield but not on the African continent at all.

[guitarman001]

Thanks all for your input - I've only had a couple minutes to skim through the posts as I'm away out in a moment, but a lot to mull over!

I don't trust agencies and I'll be very surprised if they reveal who the company is or where. In any case even if it is not real that sort of salary is not out of the question in places like Germany/U.S.A.

There was a post about rooting out useless workers after the 2 year mark - I've heard this before from more than one person. Luckily I've had success with everything I've worked on so far, though I do feel I can learn a lot ore if I get given a big project or two to go on. Last thing I want is people to look at the CV and think 'two years here, two years there - guy must have been found out...'

ccc... I was actually surprised when I read a 'thisismoney' salary article which showed Electronics engineering to be in the top 20 well-paid jobs in the UK! Average wage £45k I think it was - I still think it's underpaid (or rather other professions are overpaid) relative to e.g. senior council officials, bankers, doctors, senior police etc (really there are ways within these professions to make big money and/or pensions that I don't think engineers can).

I'm going to see what happens come review time - I'm not all that great at negotiations and feel very awkward when talking about money to any boss. I mean how do you go about that!? Inflation-linked rise is always fine, but that's not a REAL raise... Are these real raises given every few years, or every 5+ years....? My current money was slightly up on the last place but I always wondered if I could've gotten away with more (it was the recession and I felt lucky to be getting offered a job) - but definitely moving jobs is the best way to get more. Any decision will still be in 2ish years' time depending on circumstances. I really feel like I need one big project to further prove myself. To be honest, this is a large part for me, also - build good relationships and LEARN LEARN LEARN, get practical experience and mature as an engineer. If anybody reading this thinks they know me - know that I do love my job! I've got a lot of ambition, though - and want a place to live in!! (Still at home).

spord, you are in engineering, too, right?

Regarding Germany, I've been to Dresden and Munich. I hear Dresden is a hotbed for analogue design - the Germans are excellent at the job and I know a few companies over there who are hiring. Solid workers and very sensible people. Dresden was stunning.

ken - I will get back to you on your points!

[spord]

spord, you are in engineering, too, right?

Computer games development.

[MC Fur Q]

I know money is important but as long as you are on a decent salary job satisfaction has to come into your decision. After all, EAs used to earn a fortune but could you do that for a 20% increase?

If you'll be happy in the new jobs and you don't have to sell your soul, go for it! If you live sensibly the money can buy you freedom/options.

The best money is when you work for yourself though.

[OnlyMe]

Bugger is I'm only 4 years into the profession and feel they gave me a decent offer in the first place - would feel like I'd be pushing it asking for more - would also feel a bit of a t0sser for not staying for about 4 years which was the plan... (always thought that would look good on the CV, sticking to a company for 4+ years shows that you can really get by in the job and gives you a good time to learn). Don't want them to think poorly of me but if I were lucky enough to bag this other job I would be loaded before my time lol... To be honest it just costs so much to live here and with the current situation (high house prices compared to income) I'm never getting anywhere. Plus the work is a bit thin on the ground right now..

I've heard it can be tough to move up the salary ladder in the same job (in particular at my current one also, but then who DOESN'T say that about their job!). I'm also wary of moving to a stinker of a company (last one was real pressure) - I am thinking of waiting until my annual review mid-year to see what happens. Ideally I'd get a pay rise on top of an inflation-linked rise.. if not I'd be dissapointed (it being nearly 2 years and all...).

Consequently, I've been re-learning German in the possibility of a move over there. Life is short and I want to do well (and not be beholden to a slave mortgage here). I'm getting more and more serious about this now.

EDIT - basically the salary move would be from approx 30k to 42k, and I'm only 26 y/o! But then to be honest this is what I think engineers should be getting paid.. In the end I may wait to see how I progress at my review and what future work there will be. The big plus point is I currently love the job and the people - a lot to be said for that.

Don't even think about it, make the move, collect the salary - that is the way salary progression works - you are paid on your last salary - uplift if you are lucky. That is if career progression is what you really want.

It is not as if there are not complelling reasons - the housing costs are numero uno - tell your existing employers you had planned to stay for 4 years but his housing bubble has forced your arm - which it would have.

[snowflux]

Having previously lived and worked (as a software developer) in Germany for 10 years myself, I'd very much recommend making the move to do pretty much any sort of engineering. Being prepared to move abroad shows initiative, and I wouldn't worry about "job hopping" as long as you can explain your reasons to any future employers. It'll help a lot that you already know some German too.

Engineering is generally more respected and better paid in Germany, though I'd be careful about making direct salary comparisons with the UK. Taxation and mandatory health insurance tends to take a bigger bite from your gross pay in Germany than in the UK, but then, there are other benefits, such as the better and cheaper housing, pleasant environment, etc.

[Kyoto]

... If you had the chance to increase your salary by 40%, would you take it depending on these circumstances:

-1st job worked for 2.5 years

-2nd job worked for near 2 years

The worry being that it looks like company hopping solely for the money... ??

Without a shadow of a doubt. I moved yearly for the first 4 years out of uni for 25%+ increase each time.

When I hung around long enough, I normally had the derisory 2% or 3% annual review, which was probably even below inflation.

Have never even had it queried by anyone. It's just the way it goes at the start of your career when the learning is fastest.

[Tiger Woods?]

Don't even think about it, make the move, collect the salary - that is the way salary progression works - you are paid on your last salary - uplift if you are lucky. That is if career progression is what you really want.

+1

You are young and expected to move, so I wouldn't worry about being at a company only 2 years. Changing jobs will also broaden your experience. I find that the learning curve tends to have flattened out after a couple of years. This will probably only look good on your CV. (If you were changing jobs every 6 to 9 months I'd be worried about hiring you and wondering why you were shifting so much, but not if it was every 2 years especially at 26.)

Furthermore, loyalty rarely gets you anywhere, and the quicker you get up the salary ladder the higher your salary will be in the long run, as salary negotiations will always take into account what you last earned.

There is also the advantage of this job being a walk to work, rather than a long commute. That will improve the quality of your life no end.

There seems to be some suggestion that this job is in Germany(?) You will also learn more by moving, and if it is Germany there is the added advantage of adding a(nother) language to your skill set. Germany is a nice place to live and given the length of German degrees you will be a "bright young thing."

Go for it.

[ccc]

Computer games development.

You should try Dundee.

*First time I have evern said that and actually meant it.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

I don't trust agencies and I'll be very surprised if they reveal who the company is or where. In any case even if it is not real that sort of salary is not out of the question in places like Germany/U.S.A.

Why wouldn't it be real? Doesn't sound OTT to me.

A mate of mine (engineer in multi-disc industry) is losing 2 of his PDMS jockeys because another firm have offered them £50ph! That's not typical but engineer rates locally are easily £30-40ph and as staff, you would be looking for well over £30K by now and 40K before long.