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America In The Age Of Primitivism

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http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/18/michael_lind_primitivism

..Following the world wars, the U.S. and other liberal democracies rebuilt themselves as modern, technology-based, progressive societies that offered a higher standard of living to ordinary people than ever before. Gradually they liberalized their cultures, shedding the vestiges of priestly control, moved toward meritocracy away from aristocracy and dismantled racial caste systems. They devoted themselves to great civil engineering projects, like hydropower dams, nuclear power plants, continent-spanning highways and space exploration.

And then their people suddenly got tired of modernity and tried to crawl back into the past.

On the left, technological optimists were replaced by Rousseauian romantic primitivists. In the 1970s, Green guru Amory Lovins promulgated the gospel that “hard” sources of energy like nuclear power are bad and that called for a “soft path” based on hydropower, wind and solar energy. Other Green romantics decided that even hydropower is wicked, because it is generated by dams that despoil the prehuman landscape...

My comments: I highly recommend reading this article and some of the other aticles by Michael Lind. Its amazing how the elites in our society no longer believe in progress, science and technology. Like the New Deal liberals who I believe in so much, would be completely out of place in a modern leftist movement. The New Deal liberals believed in using huge nation spanning corporations and bureaucracies, implementing and developing science to better mankind.

The New Age leftists are against all progress. Whether nuclear power plants, GMO food or tall buildings. Their ideal world appears to be impovershed 18th century farmers, usng 18th century farming techniques.

'Small is beautiful' is a favorite saying on both sides. Liek the right who believes so much in small business. Yet most wealth advance comes from the huge corporations making huge capital investments. When the factories in town shut down, small business doesn't replace them, the town just dies.

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http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/18/michael_lind_primitivism

My comments: I highly recommend reading this article and some of the other aticles by Michael Lind. Its amazing how the elites in our society no longer believe in progress, science and technology. Like the New Deal liberals who I believe in so much, would be completely out of place in a modern leftist movement. The New Deal liberals believed in using huge nation spanning corporations and bureaucracies, implementing and developing science to better mankind.

The New Age leftists are against all progress. Whether nuclear power plants, GMO food or tall buildings. Their ideal world appears to be impovershed 18th century farmers, usng 18th century farming techniques.

'Small is beautiful' is a favorite saying on both sides. Liek the right who believes so much in small business. Yet most wealth advance comes from the huge corporations making huge capital investments. When the factories in town shut down, small business doesn't replace them, the town just dies.

This isn't primitivism, it's arithmetic

Wake up

pop8.jpg

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This isn't primitivism, it's arithmetic

Wake up

The left and right lost their faith in progress. The people like Amory Lovins keep predicting we've reached the maximum output for metals, food, oil, etc.. and yet global output keeps growing each year. They say we have to accept less.

Yet as long as technology keeps moving faster than popultion growth we don't have to accept less. For example nuclear power is so prodigious in its energy production the French never worry about running low on electricity. But in Britain we lost faith in the technology and instead are putting up wind mills, that would fit in in the 13th century.

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The left and right lost their faith in progress. The people like Amory Lovins keep predicting we've reached the maximum output for metals, food, oil, etc.. and yet global output keeps growing each year. They say we have to accept less.

Yet as long as technology keeps moving faster than popultion growth we don't have to accept less. For example nuclear power is so prodigious in its energy production the French never worry about running low on electricity. But in Britain we lost faith in the technology and instead are putting up wind mills, that would fit in in the 13th century.

Primitivism is a joke in terms of servicing the basic needs of 7 billion

Unfortunately, so is technological progress.

Basically, we're f*cked

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*snip*

But in Britain we lost faith in the technology and instead are putting up wind mills, that would fit in in the 13th century.

Believe me, if the profiles of modern windmills turned up in medieval woodcuts the likes of 'erranta' would spooge their 'brains' out in an instant.

(It is an interesting article though. Makes me want toread more from the author.

I really don't see the modern windmill is an icon of the rampant anti-intellectualism we now have. I think Tallguy's correct in that it'sall about converging exponential curves...)

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Technology seems to be slowing down. I waited 5 years before upgrading my P4 for a Duo-core. Blu Ray produces a picture so sharp on my recently acquired Panasonic TXP-42G20 that the human eye would probably not benefit from any further improvement.

If the recent report on shrinking brains is right--we are getting thicker and it follows that we have already peaked technology-wise.

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Technology seems to be slowing down. I waited 5 years before upgrading my P4 for a Duo-core. Blu Ray produces a picture so sharp on my recently acquired Panasonic TXP-42G20 that the human eye would probably not benefit from any further improvement.

If the recent report on shrinking brains is right--we are getting thicker and it follows that we have already peaked technology-wise.

It was well reported about 100 years ago that we have probably invented and discovered just about everything there is to discover or invent. Just a lull maybe now. Also there has been a bit of an anti-science theme over the last couple of decades re government and the publics perception of science and engineering on account of the glammor applied to finance and the cult of 'celebrity'. Perhaps a new age of austerity if it ever turns up will swing the national psyche back to science, engineering and discovery as a way out/forward. As for TV, long way to go yet before we reach a peak of technology, wait till we get real 3D that you can touch and grab, that would be a quantum leap and porn sales would go through the roof.

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My comments: I highly recommend reading this article and some of the other aticles by Michael Lind. Its amazing how the elites in our society no longer believe in progress, science and technology. Like the New Deal liberals who I believe in so much, would be completely out of place in a modern leftist movement. The New Deal liberals believed in using huge nation spanning corporations and bureaucracies, implementing and developing science to better mankind.

The New Age leftists are against all progress. Whether nuclear power plants, GMO food or tall buildings. Their ideal world appears to be impovershed 18th century farmers, usng 18th century farming techniques.

'Small is beautiful' is a favorite saying on both sides. Liek the right who believes so much in small business. Yet most wealth advance comes from the huge corporations making huge capital investments. When the factories in town shut down, small business doesn't replace them, the town just dies.

Yes..

Although it's not restricted to the left. After all, a lot of the aristocracy (cf Prince Charlie) happily dream of a time when they were lords of the manor and everyone knew their place.

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Technology seems to be slowing down. I waited 5 years before upgrading my P4 for a Duo-core. Blu Ray produces a picture so sharp on my recently acquired Panasonic TXP-42G20 that the human eye would probably not benefit from any further improvement.

If the recent report on shrinking brains is right--we are getting thicker and it follows that we have already peaked technology-wise.

I'm sure theres plenty of high tech stuff already developed by governments that they have not shown their people.

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Yes..

Although it's not restricted to the left. After all, a lot of the aristocracy (cf Prince Charlie) happily dream of a time when they were lords of the manor and everyone knew their place.

Yes I notice the more aristocratic someone is the mre likely they are to believe in things like global warming and especially the solution of making cars and electricity unaffordable for the average person. I think they emotionally decide on an idea they like, then find reasons to justify that decision.

Orwell wrote about how technology and mass production, make class differences disappear. Prine Charles never has to worry about going hungry.. but food production is so abundant now, that no Brit goes hungry. Prince Charles can afford a car to get around.. but so can most Brits and they are on the road right beside him.

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Yes I notice the more aristocratic someone is the mre likely they are to believe in things like global warming and especially the solution of making cars and electricity unaffordable for the average person. I think they emotionally decide on an idea they like, then find reasons to justify that decision.

Orwell wrote about how technology and mass production, make class differences disappear. Prine Charles never has to worry about going hungry.. but food production is so abundant now, that no Brit goes hungry. Prince Charles can afford a car to get around.. but so can most Brits and they are on the road right beside him.

I see your Prince Charles and raise you a Viscount Monckton:

GwdChristopherMonckton.jpg

and a Lord Lawson:

lawson460x276.jpg

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Yes I notice the more aristocratic someone is the mre likely they are to believe in things like global warming and especially the solution of making cars and electricity unaffordable for the average person. I think they emotionally decide on an idea they like, then find reasons to justify that decision.

Actually, acceptance of global warming correlates very well with degree of scientific education.. solutions are interesting, because it's quite obvious scientifically that wind and solar power are not a viable way to power an industrial economy.

Referring to the article, the whole thing about 'primitivism' of whatever you call it is that it allows you to avoid uncomfortable truths, or indeed any complexity of argument at all.

Orwell wrote about how technology and mass production, make class differences disappear. Prince Charles never has to worry about going hungry.. but food production is so abundant now, that no Brit goes hungry. Prince Charles can afford a car to get around.. but so can most Brits and they are on the road right beside him.

Worse than that, they don't have to show respect for their betters.. (or face being thrown off the land into penury). And if you let people have leisure time to think - instead of having their noses to the grindstone 24/7 - who knows what they might come up with.

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Why?

Technology is born of greater access to resources, not the other way around.

Sure enough, there are the occassional bright ideas that allow hitherto unusable energy to be utilised in new ways and from that a whole new tranch of secondary technolgies evolve. But, in the main, the causal arrow runs in the one direction only.

Any new subsidiary technologies that flow from the current hydrocarbon energy arrangement are only ever going to have a mininmal effect at the edges.

What is really neeed is a underlying replacement for hydrocarbons.

Any ideas?

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/7970619/Obama-could-kill-fossil-fuels-overnight-with-a-nuclear-dash-for-thorium.html

Current nuclear fuels are used becuase they make good bombs, unlike thorium which has virtually no nuclear waste.

Likewise Helium 3 could be used apart from the fact theres not much on this planet but shedloads on the moon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3

Something like a tonne of the stuff would power the north american continent for a year iirc but this is based on a power point presentation I saw closer 2000 than 2010.

You need a fusion reactor to get power from Helium-3, and they don't exist yet. Nor are they likely to for quite some time.

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Technology seems to be slowing down. I waited 5 years before upgrading my P4 for a Duo-core. Blu Ray produces a picture so sharp on my recently acquired Panasonic TXP-42G20 that the human eye would probably not benefit from any further improvement.

If the recent report on shrinking brains is right--we are getting thicker and it follows that we have already peaked technology-wise.

The fact we have reached the plateu for certain devices doesn't show the end of advancement. In computing advancement is still rife. In 1993 the top 500 super-computers had in total 1 T-Flop of processing power. Now the single biggest has over 2.5 P-Flops. The single most powerful computer now is over 2,500 times more powerful than the 500 best combined in 1993.

Multi-core processors are coming to phones. Deformable flat screens are ready to enter mass-market. I've got faster net on my phone than I had at my old home (2007). I can dictate to my phone, and have it accurately rendered to text.

We've not seen a revolution of technology on the scale of the internet yet. Yet the combination of social networks, and cloud services could be just as fundamental in shifting the IT landscape. Cloud computing may be the vapour-ware of the moment, but if they can fix a couple of minor limitations its got a lot of potential. If there is one thing history has shown, it is that the biggest breakthroughs aren't ones we anticipate.

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It was well reported about 100 years ago that we have probably invented and discovered just about everything there is to discover or invent. Just a lull maybe now. Also there has been a bit of an anti-science theme over the last couple of decades re government and the publics perception of science and engineering on account of the glammor applied to finance and the cult of 'celebrity'. Perhaps a new age of austerity if it ever turns up will swing the national psyche back to science, engineering and discovery as a way out/forward. As for TV, long way to go yet before we reach a peak of technology, wait till we get real 3D that you can touch and grab, that would be a quantum leap and porn sales would go through the roof.

In all seriousness I would invest heavily in porn companies if that starts to become a reality. Then not a big leap to full sensory reality aka star trek. Downside is a sedate vr like the matrix, not as cool.

Ffs I'm typing this on a 1 ghz mobile phone that costs relative peanuts!

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You lot make me laugh, w*nking on about tele-dildonics and the next generation of Facebook.

In twenty years time the only thing you'll be worried about is whether you have enough money for the month to pay for the food your family needs.

It's like being a witness to the dying days of Babylon. It's almost funny.

Edited by tallguy

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You lot make me laugh, w*nking on about tele-dildonics and the next generation of Facebook.

In twenty years time the only thing you'll be worried about is whether you have enough money for the month to pay for the food your family needs.

It's like being a witness to the dying days of Babylon. It's almost funny.

Party-pooper! Let them have their fun, while they still can.

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It always appears that we are running out of resources. Like the world has thought it was on the verge of running out of oil 6 times now, going all the way back to when Whales were being overhunted and running out.

It takes faith to believe, don't worry mankind will figure someway around the problem as it gets closer. Basically faith in progress. And to invest in the potential alternatives.. each challenge is also an opportunity for someone.

I find it interesting that what looks like the peak living standards for the average person in many western countries.. in the 60's and 70's just the man had to work and to live a pretty good life. Seems to coincide with the change in society towards primitivism - or whatever term you want for believing the past was better and losing faith in progress.

Look at the issue of house prices. Why are house prices not dirt cheap, considerig how easy it is with modern technology to throw up a house. Well the society changed from being pro-building houses.. to being against any houses, anywhere. That is sort of ultra primitivism, not even back to the 18th century, but back to cave man days before the land was 'spoiled' by human structures.

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It takes faith to believe, don't worry mankind will figure someway around the problem as it gets closer. Basically faith in progress. And to invest in the potential alternatives.. each challenge is also an opportunity for someone.

You need to read this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straw-Dogs-Thoughts-Humans-Animals/dp/1862075964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296022492&sr=8-1

At least you admit it is blind faith in progress which makes you no better than a medieval theologian awaiting the second coming.

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You need to read this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straw-Dogs-Thoughts-Humans-Animals/dp/1862075964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296022492&sr=8-1

At least you admit it is blind faith in progress which makes you no better than a medieval theologian awaiting the second coming.

Let me give you an example with electrical production. Most on the left were predicting the world would produce less electricity in 2008 than in 1998. Because of finite resources running out. I looked at the long term average and simply projected it forward. Is it blind faith.. I'm not so sure, if electrical production grows at 2.7% a year, year after year(even with primitivists saying it cannot go up every year, including many esteemed intellectuals).. is it blind faith to guess another 2.7% growth for the coming year?

The ways in which we will increase production are unknowable from any point in history. How will computer engineers in 2025 produce a 50% increase in performance that year? I can take wild guesses, but I do not know. But I think it is wrong to say becaue we do not know how they will increase production then, to make the jump and say therefore they will not be able to.

In 1998 world electrical production was 13,663 billion kilowatt hours. I predicted my usual, a 2.7% rise in production per year. Because that is the long term historical average. So my prediction was for 2008 production to be 17,830 billion kilowatt hours. Back then everyone I told said it wouldn't happen, because of limited resources.

The numbers are out for 2008 now, the world production was 19,103 billion kwh.

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The fact we have reached the plateu for certain devices doesn't show the end of advancement. In computing advancement is still rife. In 1993 the top 500 super-computers had in total 1 T-Flop of processing power. Now the single biggest has over 2.5 P-Flops. The single most powerful computer now is over 2,500 times more powerful than the 500 best combined in 1993.

Multi-core processors are coming to phones. Deformable flat screens are ready to enter mass-market. I've got faster net on my phone than I had at my old home (2007). I can dictate to my phone, and have it accurately rendered to text.

We've not seen a revolution of technology on the scale of the internet yet. Yet the combination of social networks, and cloud services could be just as fundamental in shifting the IT landscape. Cloud computing may be the vapour-ware of the moment, but if they can fix a couple of minor limitations its got a lot of potential. If there is one thing history has shown, it is that the biggest breakthroughs aren't ones we anticipate.

to what end?

so I can watch a film on the train?

or view my bank balance every 10 minutes?

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to what end?

so I can watch a film on the train?

or view my bank balance every 10 minutes?

+1

I just want to be able to make a phone call on my mobile...this is becoming progressively harder.

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  • 311 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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