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Pensions Get Screwed Even More

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's demograffix, innit? Baby-boomers coming up to retirement mean more pensioners, and despite the overall pension pot growing it's spread ever more thinly.

Add in much longer (possibly bubbling) life expectations, and the days of generous pensions are gone for a long time. We have 20 years of population bulge to work through the system before pensions for the masses can realistically get more generous again.

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Add in much longer (possibly bubbling) life expectations, and the days of generous pensions are gone for a long time. We have 20 years of population bulge to work through the system before pensions for the masses can realistically get more generous again.

That's 20 years of bulge to go through AND then wait for them to die.

People keep living longer and that means pensions will have to get smaller.

You've never had it so good...

If you're my age then retiring is just not going to happen. Pensions won't exist in 20 years time.

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In all seriousness this is why BTL are a decent pension investment if you don't get greedy.

I could pay off my mortgage on my main house within a couple of years.

Wait for the housing market to go down then buy, say 3 decent rental properties, with a 20% deposit on each and a 25 year repayment mortgage and have a decent retirement income and 3 houses to pass on when I die.

Or I can spend roughly the same amount of money and get an annuity that would have to perform exceptionally well to match the BTL performance and dies with me.

I don't blame BTL'ers who operate this type of model.

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I'm sorry, you can't expect to pay into a pension scheme all your working life

and enjoy a nice retirement if our superb highly skilled financial services

chaps are going to enjoy the lifestyles they surely deserve on the fees

they extract from your hard work and savings!

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The problem I have with this "people living longer" thing, is that yes people are living longer, but that doesn't mean they're fit to work longer.. Modern medicine the way it is enables us to cling on for much longer than before.

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I'm sorry, you can't expect to pay into a pension scheme all your working life

and enjoy a nice retirement if our superb highly skilled financial services

chaps are going to enjoy the lifestyles they surely deserve on the fees

they extract from your hard work and savings!

You mean that pensioners should have a right to have their own money back? Perish the thought.

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I'm sorry, you can't expect to pay into a pension scheme all your working life

and enjoy a nice retirement if our superb highly skilled financial services

chaps are going to enjoy the lifestyles they surely deserve on the fees

they extract from your hard work and savings!

Nor if you are compelled collectively to borrow your means of exchange into existence and continuously pay net interest on it, just to be enabled to do business with each other. :angry:

How do bankers and their lackeys manage to extract so much wealth from the rest of us, even when they fail? :blink:

Could our unnecessarily expensive, debt-based, commercially issued money system have something to do with it? :o

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As we live longer, annuity rates will go down.

What is the news story? There isnt any sinister force behind this, it is just the quid pro quo for greater longevity.

If I have to pay you for longer, because you are living longer, I am going to give you a lower rate on the money you deposit with me. Things appear to be working just fine.

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If you're my age then retiring is just not going to happen. Pensions won't exist in 20 years time.

What do you mean "won't exist"? Will the money in my pension pot just vanish?!

Surely they'll exist but just not be as generous as the previous generation.

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What do you mean "won't exist"? Will the money in my pension pot just vanish?!

Surely they'll exist but just not be as generous as the previous generation.

Where's your pension pot? Can you see the cash?

They might exist if you have access to an electron microscope maybe...

:)

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In all seriousness this is why BTL are a decent pension investment if you don't get greedy.

Can work well, for a few.

Can do nothing for the many, and the more who get into it, the more bubbly it gets, and the bigger the crash. And it won't be Gordon wielding the printing press next time round.

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As we live longer, annuity rates will go down.

What is the news story? There isnt any sinister force behind this, it is just the quid pro quo for greater longevity.

If I have to pay you for longer, because you are living longer, I am going to give you a lower rate on the money you deposit with me. Things appear to be working just fine.

Up to a point. But what's currently happening is existing pensioners being overpaid, while the pendulum may have swung a little too far the other way (inflated expectations) for those retiring now. Plus, we have to pay for deficits on past overblown promises, as evidenced most vividly in the Equitable.

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Where's your pension pot? Can you see the cash?

They might exist if you have access to an electron microscope maybe...

:)

LOL.

I've paid in all me life.......

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Up to a point. But what's currently happening is existing pensioners being overpaid, ...

Yup. And we let them retire too early. And for 50 years the government lied and told them everything was hunky dory. And all these old spongers have filled their kid's heads with the same crap....

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As we live longer, annuity rates will go down.

What is the news story? There isnt any sinister force behind this, it is just the quid pro quo for greater longevity.

If I have to pay you for longer, because you are living longer, I am going to give you a lower rate on the money you deposit with me. Things appear to be working just fine.

That's correct one one level, but on another the cash paid out in the City has to come from somewhere, and pension funds would appear to be a huge cash cow with proxy owners. Plus, of course, when inflation and returns are circa 10%pa, a 1% annual charge is just noise. When they are circa 3%, a 1% charge is devastating.

The state pension is another matter, of course, for which we either need higher taxes to keep it where it is, or a flexible retirement age where the longer you wait the better the basic state pension is.

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What do you mean "won't exist"? Will the money in my pension pot just vanish?!

Surely they'll exist but just not be as generous as the previous generation.

I'm sorry, scott, but if you are more than 10-15 years away from retirement then any pension as you know it now is just not going to exist. Make alternative plans, really you need to - do not rely on whatever company or public sector pension you are paying into. Oh, and if you are under 40, then you should expect to retire at >70. :o

Edit: Sad to say, but yes, BTL may be one of those alternatives.

Edited by Cash with Nowhere to Go

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You either have a pension at old age, or face poverty, its that simple

You choose BTL or personal pension plan, cash in the mattress whatever. I think a Personal Pension is better, you can see exactly how much you have Sarah, and you get a massive 67% uplift from the HMRC on high income contributions. Believe it or not the pension system in this country is very good, the tax deductions, SIPP are really excellent incentives, plus tax free withdrawals, retirement age 55. BTL is fine only if you hide the property from the tax man, otherwise you still face tax charges on a BTL like you would pension income. I know which route I am going, its all in SIPP and ISAs,

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News flash! This life expectancy bubble is going to crash just like the coming HPC... only the fleecing rich can expect long and prosperous retirements.

I used to work in the 'City' and was part of a team that managed billions of pension assets (through stock lending) and hedged through partners such as LTC Management Partners. My role was fairly basic and involved risk (mostly ringfencing clients money from the banks) but it gave me great insight. Banksters don't cream money off the top what they do is froth the assets to make the glass appear full and steal the 'liquidty' from underneath. Pensions are for mugs (oh and the very, very rich).

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I've got a SIPP which I watch like a hawk, but it's a good month if the fund value goes up by more than the amount I've put in that month. :angry:

If an ISA can grow by 2.5% to 3.0% and that's instant access - why can't a pension fund do the same? You can get gilts which yield 4% FFS!

What we need in this country is a way to have a personal gross fund which is truly personal, not just a fund provided by a pension company where they get to cream off a management fee while losing your money at the same time. I'd much rather just buy some gilts each month - from gross income. Then pay tax when I cash up.

Best would be to abolish all taxes on income and move taxation to expenditure. The whole pensions industry would cease to have any reason to exist and you could just manage your own funds, moving them every year (or month!) as you felt inclined.

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News flash! This life expectancy bubble is going to crash just like the coming HPC... only the fleecing rich can expect long and prosperous retirements.

I used to work in the 'City' and was part of a team that managed billions of pension assets (through stock lending) and hedged through partners such as LTC Management Partners. My role was fairly basic and involved risk (mostly ringfencing clients money from the banks) but it gave me great insight. Banksters don't cream money off the top what they do is froth the assets to make the glass appear full and steal the 'liquidty' from underneath. Pensions are for mugs (oh and the very, very rich).

Except that the rules practicaly force you to have a private pension. Since I pay in 3% of salary (pre tax) and my employer pays in 6%, I effectively pay 9% of pre-tax salary at a 'cost' of 2%. I'd be mad not to do this.

And what it means is that the City gets an assured income stream. Indeed, I'm in the hilarious situation of having both a substantial mortgage and a substantial pension pot.

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If people on HPC are still saying that, it could indeed be a generation before we see a true HPC.

Yes, I do not see any proper nominal HPC anymore, just real HPC masked by a lot of other stuff going on at the same time. BTL is really not necessarily evil, done properly.

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If people on HPC are still saying that, it could indeed be a generation before we see a true HPC.

If you've got a 300-400K "pension pot" to invest, BTL is still going to give you one of the best yields around. 6% to 7% yields are achievable. Try getting that from a bank! And the yield will be largely inflation proof. And if your properties go down in value, who cares? You only want the rent money to live on for the rest of your life - your heirs may lose out, not you.

RPI-linked anuities are returning 3% approx and when you die the fund evaporates, ie, they are paying you from capital as well as from yield. It's a complete rip off.

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That's correct one one level, but on another the cash paid out in the City has to come from somewhere, and pension funds would appear to be a huge cash cow with proxy owners. Plus, of course, when inflation and returns are circa 10%pa, a 1% annual charge is just noise. When they are circa 3%, a 1% charge is devastating.

The state pension is another matter, of course, for which we either need higher taxes to keep it where it is, or a flexible retirement age where the longer you wait the better the basic state pension is.

Yes. The maths of longevity force rates down.

And I agree, the City are there to steal money, and annuity funds are a good place to go, as there is lots of money there.

In theory, the funds that are thieved from least can offer the best rates and attract the most money. In reality, all funds have money taken from them in nefarious ways as one poster has said with regards to liquidity. I bet he could say more if he wished.

The one change I would make to fix things is to only allow votes on shares, if the person casting the vote is the beneficial holder of that share. That would stop managers of pension funds being 'buyable' by the City Boys. If companies had to answer to real shareholders rather than institutions, then their pay and the money for old rope that they dish out to the city in exchange for big pay packets, would most likely come to an end.

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