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ken_ichikawa

Insurance Rape

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/8248361/Drivers-to-be-banned-from-keeping-uninsured-cars-off-road.html

Bloody law.

Precis UK law is to be changed so that cars HAVE to be insured even if they are in a million pieces in your garage as a project. Or put through the paper pushing fine inducing SORN system. The SORN system which btw is designed to incur fines on the forgetful especially since the DVLA no longer sends out tax reminder or SORN reminder notices. It is a law designed to fine people and to raise money.

I urge you guys to fight back.

To HPC I gift to you...

SORN has a tried and tested defence from a London biker. Collins Vs DVLA. He wiped the floor with the DVLA. In effect the DVLA does not keep records of incoming post and it does not log incoming post. Therefore the principle that the second you put it into the post box your obligation in regards to the SORN law is complete. It is up to HMRC to prove that they did or did not receive it.

Since they cannot do this as they do not log the post or have any method to prove you didn't put it in the post box the moment you cite this defence to the DVLA they will rescind the court case.

You can do this easily, via the post so it doesn't go to court.

Or you can purposefully waste their funds by allowing it to go to court, then citing this defence as soon as possible at which DVLA will withdraw their case wasting significant funds.

HTH HPCers

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I find it rather difficult to get hot and bothered by this Ken, as simply sending the SORN declaration off is all you need to do.

If it prevents uninsured numpties pushing up my premiums, I say "BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!"

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Completely agree with What's'isname.

Also regarding the "wasting significant funds" aspect of your legal challenge to the SORN process, remind me where those significant funds come from again? The Government...who get it from taxpayers...?? What a silly wasteful battle to fight.

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Except SORN was invented on the pretext of saving insurance money for people, look at how insurance has jumped in the past few years. It hasn't saved a penny yet it has given the DVLA an ability to extort you for money for absolutely no benefit.

In fact the SORN system relies on paper instead of cops to keep untaxed cars off the road which is arguably worse.

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Completely agree with What's'isname.

Also regarding the "wasting significant funds" aspect of your legal challenge to the SORN process, remind me where those significant funds come from again? The Government...who get it from taxpayers...?? What a silly wasteful battle to fight.

So you're just going to roll over and let them stick it in your bum again and again?

Ratchet effect you know, if you tolerate this then more and more laws designed to extract more and more money with no positive benefit will come out.

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Completely agree with What's'isname.

Also regarding the "wasting significant funds" aspect of your legal challenge to the SORN process, remind me where those significant funds come from again? The Government...who get it from taxpayers...?? What a silly wasteful battle to fight.

So you're just going to roll over and let them stick it in your bum again and again?

Ratchet effect you know, if you tolerate this then more and more laws designed to extract more and more money with no positive benefit will come out.

This would require a change in Statute.

The article is confused...it talks of uninsured vehicles being crushed, then it talks of the excuse..."its in the road but never used".

Insurance is only required for 3rd party damage for the use on the ROAD.

so if you submit a SORN and leave it parked on the road, you are liable.

Otherwise, the minister cant just change the "system"...he needs a change to Statute.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/8248361/Drivers-to-be-banned-from-keeping-uninsured-cars-off-road.html

Bloody law.

Precis UK law is to be changed so that cars HAVE to be insured even if they are in a million pieces in your garage as a project. Or put through the paper pushing fine inducing SORN system. The SORN system which btw is designed to incur fines on the forgetful especially since the DVLA no longer sends out tax reminder or SORN reminder notices. It is a law designed to fine people and to raise money.

I urge you guys to fight back.

To HPC I gift to you...

SORN has a tried and tested defence from a London biker. Collins Vs DVLA. He wiped the floor with the DVLA. In effect the DVLA does not keep records of incoming post and it does not log incoming post. Therefore the principle that the second you put it into the post box your obligation in regards to the SORN law is complete. It is up to HMRC to prove that they did or did not receive it.

Since they cannot do this as they do not log the post or have any method to prove you didn't put it in the post box the moment you cite this defence to the DVLA they will rescind the court case.

You can do this easily, via the post so it doesn't go to court.

Or you can purposefully waste their funds by allowing it to go to court, then citing this defence as soon as possible at which DVLA will withdraw their case wasting significant funds.

HTH HPCers

SORN is about TAX, not insurance.

In addition to come and confiscate your "offroad" uninsured car, theyd need to enter your premises, load it on a truck and drive off with it.

Now, that would involve getting a warrant, so the proof needed was evidence of the vehicle being ON the road.....

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Otherwise, the minister cant just change the "system"...he needs a change to Statute.

Remember what Injin said? They just take it to court and start making things up in order to extract money from you and steal your wealth. Laws don't have to make sense when you have a corrupt judiciary to back you up.

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Remember what Injin said? They just take it to court and start making things up in order to extract money from you and steal your wealth. Laws don't have to make sense when you have a corrupt judiciary to back you up.

Ah, Injin.

nah, they need an Act and Section, a right of entry and a Law.

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I personally find it an irritation as it will have negligible effect against those breaking the law but not those who try to play by the rules.

From what I gather from elsewhere basically as soon as your insurance runs out it has to be declared SORN and thus off road. This is annoying for myself as I have a spare motor sat on my drive that I leave uninsured. It is there in case its needed and can be insured in a wiffy but now I also have to retax the bloody thing. Granted its easier due to the online system but still a nuisance.

The other angle as well is what about people that do similar to myself, i.e. leave a taxed vehicle off the road? There would be a fair amount of us that do this effectively wasting money. So removing this ability they are not only costing themselves revenue from an unused tax disk but also upping the costs and administrative burden all for what? To catch a few arseholes who will still do it no matter what you do (I know this for a fact). No upside at all.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/8248361/Drivers-to-be-banned-from-keeping-uninsured-cars-off-road.html

Bloody law.

Precis UK law is to be changed so that cars HAVE to be insured even if they are in a million pieces in your garage as a project. Or put through the paper pushing fine inducing SORN system. The SORN system which btw is designed to incur fines on the forgetful especially since the DVLA no longer sends out tax reminder or SORN reminder notices. It is a law designed to fine people and to raise money.

I urge you guys to fight back.

To HPC I gift to you...

SORN has a tried and tested defence from a London biker. Collins Vs DVLA. He wiped the floor with the DVLA. In effect the DVLA does not keep records of incoming post and it does not log incoming post. Therefore the principle that the second you put it into the post box your obligation in regards to the SORN law is complete. It is up to HMRC to prove that they did or did not receive it.

Since they cannot do this as they do not log the post or have any method to prove you didn't put it in the post box the moment you cite this defence to the DVLA they will rescind the court case.

You can do this easily, via the post so it doesn't go to court.

Or you can purposefully waste their funds by allowing it to go to court, then citing this defence as soon as possible at which DVLA will withdraw their case wasting significant funds.

HTH HPCers

[/quote

Since when have the dvla stopped sending out tax/sorn reminder`s I was not aware of this is it right BTW it`s a genuine question

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I would like to see an end to SORN (and these other similar laws) as I don't see as it other than a tax on the forgetful (like me!).

In my case I had a motorbike off the road for a few years whilst I was restoring it. Just at the time it was due for one of its SORNs I had some major work done to the house, the builders were in and everywhere was in a right old state. The SORN reminder documents ended up "filed" under some other paperwork and I forgot about it for 5 weeks and then posted the documents off.

2 weeks later a letter came through with a fine of about £47 for being late to SORN. It's one of these deals that if you don't phone up and pay it immediately then it doubles after a couple of weeks. I called up the phone number given and the only options are to pay or to take it to court. If i'd known about "Kens defence" then I may have chosen to go down the court route as I felt this fine was unjustified, especially as at the time it only cost £30 to tax the bike for a year.

SORN is free, i'd sent off the paperwork just a few weeks late, so how the fek was fining me anything but a tax on forgetfulness or stupidity?

Agree totally with Shrouds comments above.

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Since when have the dvla stopped sending out tax/sorn reminder`s I was not aware of this is it right BTW it`s a genuine question

They still send them out, well, they sent me one in November last year.

I do agree about SORN auto-renewing though. They should change it so that once you put a vehicle on SORN, it stays that way until you apply for tax or notify the DVLA it has been sold / destroyed, etc.

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I personally find it an irritation as it will have negligible effect against those breaking the law but not those who try to play by the rules.

From what I gather from elsewhere basically as soon as your insurance runs out it has to be declared SORN and thus off road. This is annoying for myself as I have a spare motor sat on my drive that I leave uninsured. It is there in case its needed and can be insured in a wiffy but now I also have to retax the bloody thing. Granted its easier due to the online system but still a nuisance.

The other angle as well is what about people that do similar to myself, i.e. leave a taxed vehicle off the road? There would be a fair amount of us that do this effectively wasting money. So removing this ability they are not only costing themselves revenue from an unused tax disk but also upping the costs and administrative burden all for what? To catch a few arseholes who will still do it no matter what you do (I know this for a fact). No upside at all.

yes, its like banning guns thinking it will stop gun crime.

or making rape a life sentence.

the thing about crime, is that people do it because they think they arent going to get caught.

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They still send them out, well, they sent me one in November last year.

I do agree about SORN auto-renewing though. They should change it so that once you put a vehicle on SORN, it stays that way until you apply for tax or notify the DVLA it has been sold / destroyed, etc.

Yes that what I thought as I received one in November to ,dose any one know if they plan to stop sending them out ? or has the O.P got it wrong/misunderstood

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They still send them out, well, they sent me one in November last year.

I do agree about SORN auto-renewing though. They should change it so that once you put a vehicle on SORN, it stays that way until you apply for tax or notify the DVLA it has been sold / destroyed, etc.

Yes that what I thought as I received one in November to ,dose any one know if they plan to stop sending them out ? or has the O.P got it wrong/misunderstood

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the thing about crime, is that people do it because they think they arent going to get caught.

That's not entirely true, many professional criminals (drug dealers, burglars, etc) factor the risk into the risk / reward equation. Proof of this is how many people re-offend even after being caught.

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Precis UK law is to be changed so that cars HAVE to be insured even if they are in a million pieces in your garage as a project.

The important point in all this is when is a car not a car. If they came to your house, you would point out your garden ornament, not a car. You need only remove a wheel to ensure it would not match definitions of vehicle or mobile. Removing the number plates would be a good idea, without a registration, their computers would be stumped.

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Yes that what I thought as I received one in November to ,dose any one know if they plan to stop sending them out ? or has the O.P got it wrong/misunderstood

The DVLA is supposed to send them out yearly, but sometimes they conveniently (for them) forget, also if your SORN after the 1st year then the likelyhood of the SORN notices drops markedly. I used to own 16 bikes, of which only 2 were on the road at any one time.

I had so many bikes because I'd buy bikes from insurance companies extremely cheap with very little damage. Also biker mates who emigrated wanted me to keep their bike for a bit incase they came back. A few of them have come back and reclaimed their bikes.

The first year of SORN always comes 2nd year about 50% of them arrived the next year one of them arrived. Potentially the DVLA could have fined me for 13 bikes. K has over 100 bikes stuffed in his lockup and they have been sorned since forever. He never gets SORN notices for any bike which has been off the road more than 2 years.

The DVLA will 'forget' to send out SORN notices to more and more people corresponding with the amount of money they want to raise.

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Yes that what I thought as I received one in November to ,dose any one know if they plan to stop sending them out ? or has the O.P got it wrong/misunderstood

The DVLA is supposed to send them out yearly, but sometimes they conveniently (for them) forget, also if your SORN after the 1st year then the likelyhood of the SORN notices drops markedly. I used to own 16 bikes, of which only 2 were on the road at any one time.

I had so many bikes because I'd buy bikes from insurance companies extremely cheap with very little damage. Also biker mates who emigrated wanted me to keep their bike for a bit incase they came back. A few of them have come back and reclaimed their bikes.

The first year of SORN always comes 2nd year about 50% of them arrived the next year one of them arrived. Potentially the DVLA could have fined me for 13 bikes. K has over 100 bikes stuffed in his lockup and they have been sorned since forever. He never gets SORN notices for any bike which has been off the road more than 2 years.

The DVLA will 'forget' to send out SORN notices to more and more people corresponding with the amount of money they want to raise.

Cheers I had a similar problem ,had no renewal of sorn thought it was still on sorn but received a fine,I wrote and told them I had not received a renewal and they withdrew the fine ,just thought there incompetence was now becoming policy when I read OP

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Can you imagine a time when you needed to tell no one whether you had bought a car or not. (same for a TV)

Insurance (and Road Tax) should be in the cost of petrol.

No need for tracking people and criminalising vast swathes of the population.

I remember in Bristol, about 1975, a retailer being prosecuted for the offence of refusing to tell the government whether people had bought their TV's on credit, or for cash.

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  • 311 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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