Realistbear Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/ECB-forced-step-calm-market-tele-1419919831.html?x=0 ECB forced to step in to calm market fears over Portugal Andrew Trotman, 23:12, Friday 7 January 2011 The European Central Bank (ECB) was forced to step in as market fears grew over Portugal's ability to solve its debt crisis. The eurozone country's cost of borrowing rose to post-euro record highs, while some banking shares hit 17-year lows amid concerns Lisbon will have to follow Greece and Ireland (Berlin: IIK.BE - news) into applying for a bail-out. With Portuguese debt maturing in April and June, the bond markets, which fell for a third day in succession, have grown nervous shitting bricks...../ Meanwhile, the pound hit its strongest level in more than three months against the euro as speculation that the UK economy will be more resilient than the euro region outweighed a weaker-than-forecast US employment report. Funny, I posted a few days ago that Portugal might not see the week out without some major intervention. Next week might see some interesting panic in the markets. Don't here the "contained" word mentioned anymore. If we are in better shape that the EZ we must be in very poor shape indeed with the cuts not starting in earnest until February as job losses beging to mount. Edited January 8, 2011 by Realistbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Is this why the Euro is crashing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Did it make it to main stream news? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I think Portugal is going to do a better job of bargaining than Ireland. A couple months ago I remember reading the Minister of Finance of Portugal say maybe they should leave the Euro instead of doing austerity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I think Portugal is going to do a better job of bargaining than Ireland. A couple months ago I remember reading the Minister of Finance of Portugal say maybe they should leave the Euro instead of doing austerity. Will do wonders for voter confidence in Greece and Ireland if Portugal bins the currency and avoids harsh austerity measures...... I predict a riot. Indeed I predict several riots and Governments falling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleSteroid Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 not long before China will step in and save Portugal too. Let's face it, Europe is too big to fail....just like Housing Market in UK. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! NEVER! I'he lost my faith in politicians as they only protect interests of the few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 China has limited resources too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onesmallstep Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 not long before China will step in and save Portugal too. Let's face it, Europe is too big to fail....just like Housing Market in UK. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! NEVER! I'he lost my faith in politicians as they only protect interests of the few. haha, you cannot break the laws of money captain!! No matter how hard they try, they cannot win, they have already lost. But like all spoilt kids, they will try very hard to trash it for everybody else on their way out. The only way they can survive is to print money, if they do that the pound devalues inflation goes skywards and we still are stuffed. The world order is changing. I believe that world govts have to finance something like 4trn tokens every year, i.e. the world deficit is 4trn tokens, even China will run out of tokens to finance that. Before that, the competition for money takes place meaning interest rate rises, also the competition for resources takes place meaning inflation. House prices are way down the list nobody in China wants a house in Bristol. The only reason interest rates are so low at the moment is to stop our sorry excuse of a financial system imploding and taking down the rest of the economy with it. The question is when will they blink? Will they wait until they need a bail out? The only answer is (was) to make the banks default and then stop them doing anything else other than handling personal banking. Repossess all the house and let somebody else have them at a sensible price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spp Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Socialism works until you run out of other people's money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realistbear Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-France-want-Portugal-reuters_molt-116755636.html?x=0 12:58, Saturday 8 January 2011 BERLIN ( Reuters ) - Germany and France want Portugal to accept an international bailout as soon as possible in order to prevent its debt crisis spreading to other countries , German magazine Der Spiegel reported on Saturday. Without citing its sources, the magazine said government experts from both European heavyweights were concerned Lisbon will soon not be able to finance its debt at reasonable rates, after its borrowing costs rose at the end of last year. It was a good thing for trhe Euro they didn't break this story until today after markets closed. There will be some emergency talks going on today and tomorrow to avoid another panic on Monday. I doubt it will be avoided though as people are beginning to discredit "containment" talk. Edited January 8, 2011 by Realistbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-France-want-Portugal-reuters_molt-116755636.html?x=0 12:58, Saturday 8 January 2011 BERLIN ( Reuters ) - Germany and France want Portugal to accept an international bailout as soon as possible in order to prevent its debt crisis spreading to other countries , German magazine Der Spiegel reported on Saturday. Without citing its sources, the magazine said government experts from both European heavyweights were concerned Lisbon will soon not be able to finance its debt at reasonable rates, after its borrowing costs rose at the end of last year. It was a good thing for trhe Euro they didn't break this story until today after markets closed. There will be some emergency talks going on today and tomorrow to avoid another panic on Monday. I doubt it will be avoided though as people are beginning to discredit "containment" talk. Nobody is allowed to lose in this world of entitlement. not unless you lose by stealth that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFlibble Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany and France want Portugal to accept an international bailout as soon as possible in order to prevent its debt crisis spreading to other countries, German magazine Der Spiegel reported on Saturday. Oh no, it's another bailout... The more they try and cobble the system together the more it falls apart. At some point they are going to have to accept the ship has taken on too much water and is going to sink. Stocking up on more water isn't quite the right answer - unless the plan is to pump the ocean dry and fill the ship with the entire ocean, then in theory sinking is impossible. Who knows, but I suspect at some point we'll be revaluing money at 1 new unit equals 100 old units - we've gone way past 10 units now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 We can all rejoice that it's all contained. I'm already looking forward to the announcements from the Portuguse govt denying they need a bailout, the ECB denying they need a bailout, the EU denying they need a bailout. Then we'll have stories about the IMF going on holiday to Portugal but no bailout is needed followed by yet more denials then ultimately a bailout will come out of nowhere because it wasn't needed. It's just been done because the markets are currently irrational and their is no crisis and it's all been contained once more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufflesTheGuineaPig Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I think Portugal is going to do a better job of bargaining than Ireland. A couple months ago I remember reading the Minister of Finance of Portugal say maybe they should leave the Euro instead of doing austerity. I'm amazed this idea keeps coming up - "drop out of the euro and your problems are solved". It's utter crap. Even if a country drop out of the euro, all their existing debts are euro denominated. Any form of default - either though non-payment or attempted payment with an alternative freshly printed currency - will see the country returned to third world status in months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I'm amazed this idea keeps coming up - "drop out of the euro and your problems are solved". It's utter crap. Even if a country drop out of the euro, all their existing debts are euro denominated. Any form of default - either though non-payment or attempted payment with an alternative freshly printed currency - will see the country returned to third world status in months. Before the country leaves all debt will be fixed at say 2 escudo to 1 Euro, so it will the debt holders who get screwed. I would expect complete panic in the markets before an exit. The real problem is that if Portugal did exit the dominoes would fall, I'd expect Ireland and Greece to exit asap. Although you would also have the problem of the mother of all banking runs with the Euro as all the money would head towards Germany. Which of course would trigger a complete banking crisis. Still I'm sure it's all contained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Oh no, it's another bailout... The more they try and cobble the system together the more it falls apart. At some point they are going to have to accept the ship has taken on too much water and is going to sink. Stocking up on more water isn't quite the right answer - unless the plan is to pump the ocean dry and fill the ship with the entire ocean, then in theory sinking is impossible. Who knows, but I suspect at some point we'll be revaluing money at 1 new unit equals 100 old units - we've gone way past 10 units now. Just imagine how big the ship would become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onesmallstep Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) I hope it's in one of those containers they stick nuclear waste in actually, I think Germany's going to have to pay for it all give the bill to them ...... bye... Edited January 8, 2011 by onesmallstep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilEdna Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-France-want-Portugal-reuters_molt-116755636.html?x=0 12:58, Saturday 8 January 2011 BERLIN ( Reuters ) - Germany and France want Portugal to accept an international bailout as soon as possible in order to prevent its debt crisis spreading to other countries , German magazine Der Spiegel reported on Saturday. Without citing its sources, the magazine said government experts from both European heavyweights were concerned Lisbon will soon not be able to finance its debt at reasonable rates, after its borrowing costs rose at the end of last year. It was a good thing for trhe Euro they didn't break this story until today after markets closed. There will be some emergency talks going on today and tomorrow to avoid another panic on Monday. I doubt it will be avoided though as people are beginning to discredit "containment" talk. Personally I don't think this will spook the markets - this has been priced in for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufflesTheGuineaPig Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Before the country leaves all debt will be fixed at say 2 escudo to 1 Euro, so it will the debt holders who get screwed. I would expect complete panic in the markets before an exit. lol... you can't just change the terms of the contract after it written. Even if the government decided to change it, something that would prevent it borrowing indefinately, the "change" would only apply in that countries courts. Outside that country the debt would still be enforcable in euros. Payment in worthless new currency wouldn't be counted. So, you're Portugal. You've effectively defaulted by paying with worthless fresh "Portugal Dollars". You order some medicine from Germany. Prior to delivery, the creditor gets a court order from a German court, the medicine is seized and sold to pay off the debt. Oh dear. There is no way to default and just "walk away" without massive pain and becoming a third world country. People need to stop having these pipe dreams about "default" and "not paying". These things wont happen. Stop dreaming of a magic bullet and look for a workable solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticus Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Socialism works until you run out of other people's money... Which suggests that the correct environment for socialism to take root is one without any actual money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 lol... you can't just change the terms of the contract after it written. Even if the government decided to change it, something that would prevent it borrowing indefinately, the "change" would only apply in that countries courts. Outside that country the debt would still be enforcable in euros. Payment in worthless new currency wouldn't be counted. So, you're Portugal. You've effectively defaulted by paying with worthless fresh "Portugal Dollars". You order some medicine from Germany. Prior to delivery, the creditor gets a court order from a German court, the medicine is seized and sold to pay off the debt. Oh dear. There is no way to default and just "walk away" without massive pain and becoming a third world country. People need to stop having these pipe dreams about "default" and "not paying". These things wont happen. Stop dreaming of a magic bullet and look for a workable solution. Odd thoughts from an Idealist, I imagine. Hundreds of computer companies would bust all the time in the 1990s to recent, owing suppliers millions, yet the same directors would be trading again, with credit weeks later with pheonix firms using the same stupid model for the business. some went bust many times. yet the big boys still sold to them, the banks still gave credit, customers still bought. If there is money to be made, the next sale is a done deal. and a Country that has defaulted and cleared its dues is in a FAR BETTER position to pay future debts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realistbear Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Portugal under pressure to seek EU/IMF aid - source Jan Strupczewski, 15:09, Sunday 9 January 2011 BRUSSELS ( Reuters ) - Pressure is growing on Portugal from Germany, France and other euro zone countries to seek financial help from the EU and IMF (Berlin: MXG1.BE - news) to stop the bloc's debt crisis from spreading, a senior euro zone source said on Sunday. Probably to follow ROI pattern: denial followed by acceptance a few days later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilEdna Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Bend over and take your medicine: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jan/09/portugal-eu-imf-aid?showallcomments=true#end-of-comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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