19 year mortgage 8itch Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 So the price of everything is inflating/the value of fiat-paper is falling (you agree with that tenet obviously - as you claim my previous post is sensible), but gold isn't a preferable alternative for storing wealth in these circumstances? Can you elaborate, and once you've debunked gold, perhaps enlighten us all to some viable wealth-protecting alternatives? I meant the bit about stay at home mothers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Your own profitable viable business..... Fair point, but that fuel price rise has just impacted on your cash flow, so you raise prices and pass the cost on the consumer, just like all your competitors. Result, your business market is competing for a shrinking customer base and those businesses at the margin consequently get crushed. Result, weaker economy and less tax-take for the government. Result, bigger deficits and more debt. Result, definitely a weaker pound and probably more money printing/devaluation. Result, pound in your pocket buys even less. The merry-go-round will continue until we stop living beyond our means and free healthcare for all ailments stops, we stop fighting expensive unwinnable wars in foreign lands, stop handing out dole money to the bone idle and all women are back at the kitchen sink, while the man of the house goes to work as the single income earner in the single family car he can just afford to run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) I meant the bit about stay at home mothers That is sufficient to prove my point. Thanks Edited January 4, 2011 by General Congreve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Allegro Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 OK this is now getting out of hand, i went to my local filling station the now for some diesel it was 123.9 last week, today i paid 130.9, grumbling i went to the kiosk to pay, inside there were 3 people all bitching about the cost. So i went up to pay and asked for a packet of cigs, last week these were £4.86 i know this because the price was still on the rail under them. today she asked for £5.02. This realy cant continue now, absolutely everything is going up in price a lot not just a little, not 2.5% more like 10%. It is everywhere i go, the cafe i get a roll and coffee from has gone to near a fiver now for it, was 3.60 he told me a pack of bacon costs him 50p more than 6 months ago and a loaf of bread 30p more. everywhere i go everything is going up and fast. The next inflation figures that come out better be showing huge increases even with the scamming they cant hide this. im not sure how long it will last before people start to throw things they are allready angry, but hey the bankers shared out a nice bonus using our vat money so buisness as usual. the bastards Hmm...rather a costly lifestyle I'd say. The best protest is to vote with your feet. Just refuse to play their game. Eg: Diesel: ditch the car and get a bicycle, or a moped/scooter if you need to go longer distances. Cigs: smoke less, cut them out, change to roll ups or a pipe, grow your own baccy or get it on a booze cruise. Roll and coffee in a cafe: get a thermos and a tupperware sandwich box. Loaf of bread: invest in a breadmaking machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Hmm...rather a costly lifestyle I'd say. The best protest is to vote with your feet. Just refuse to play their game. Eg: Diesel: ditch the car and get a bicycle, or a moped/scooter if you need to go longer distances. Cigs: smoke less, cut them out, change to roll ups or a pipe, grow your own baccy or get it on a booze cruise. Roll and coffee in a cafe: get a thermos and a tupperware sandwich box. Loaf of bread: invest in a breadmaking machine. No joke....that would save a fortune over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Gold just looks too close to a peak for me. Good post about stay home mothers and happier families etc. If ONLY!! However I think this will have the opposite effect with couples working even MORE. For those on low wages work must be looking like a waste of time now when you can sit at home on benefits not having to pay for transport costs. I'd love to cycle to work - it's only about 8-10 miles away. I'm not the fittest... my main reasons for not doing so are: a) time is valuable to me and I get grumpy without my guitar practice - wouldn't be an efficient use of time It is absolutely FREEZING up here in Scotland c) probably a false economy as I'd need to have an even bigger lunch to keep my internal engine going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtomsilver Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Pensioners are really struggling. Retiree's I know in Leicester are down to £400 a month "on their investments" due to Mervin Kunts savings destruction plan. I think its time he got a letter from every member of the public every time inflation goes over "2%".I asked if they get greater state help, but they can't for some reason. Also evidence my father was struggling before he died, even he hadn't reckoned on ZIRP and the end of savings as we know it. I've turned the heating down, bought an electric blanket for my settee and limited the Citroen to one tankful per month. Eating out and takeaways area no, no. Wine limited to one bottle per week. How anyone can afford to smoke is beyond me. This rise has had an enormous impact on my family too. Lets not forget that when they cut VAT to 15% they added 2p duty to 'balance' the revenue and left it in place when VAT went up again. It would be nice if we can have this back please. Like you I intend to fill my car up on fewer occasions. Used to be once a week, then once a fortnight and now I'm aiming for once every six weeks (325mile to a tank in lemon C1). We are buying our house nearer to my wifes work cutting her commute from 400miles a week to just 130 in total! The 20% rate is psychologically an important barrier for us and like I said on my new year thread we will be thinking very carefully before buying anything now. Hand on heart I can say for that extra 2.5% (or 10% hike in the shops) they will be losing the sale and consequentially the 17.5% (thats thousands of £s in VAT in my instance). For the record my family through transient fortune would still be able to spend ourselves our of recession but won't add me and many others to the less fortunate who have been priced out altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I have to agree with a lot of comments in the press. We should cut foreign aid, EU budget, all the faff and for once give Brits an easier time of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 This rise has had an enormous impact on my family too. Lets not forget that when they cut VAT to 15% they added 2p duty to 'balance' the revenue and left it in place when VAT went up again. It would be nice if we can have this back please. Like you I intend to fill my car up on fewer occasions. Used to be once a week, then once a fortnight and now I'm aiming for once every six weeks (325mile to a tank in lemon C1). We are buying our house nearer to my wifes work cutting her commute from 400miles a week to just 130 in total! House closer to work: good sense. Don't know how those that work near cities can afford this, though. Jobs should be spread over the country, not focused on centres IMO. £55 to fill my car up the other day. Is going to be more expensive next time, and I only drive a 1.4l 35mpg Ford Focus! I fill up maybe 2.5 times a month. Lots of money - dreading MOT & servicing... I wonder if in a decade's time we'll still be driving at all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepista Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 ...We are buying our house nearer to my wifes work... You were doing so well otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Gold just looks too close to a peak for me. Good post about stay home mothers and happier families etc. If ONLY!! However I think this will have the opposite effect with couples working even MORE. For those on low wages work must be looking like a waste of time now when you can sit at home on benefits not having to pay for transport costs. I'd love to cycle to work - it's only about 8-10 miles away. I'm not the fittest... my main reasons for not doing so are: a) time is valuable to me and I get grumpy without my guitar practice - wouldn't be an efficient use of time It is absolutely FREEZING up here in Scotland c) probably a false economy as I'd need to have an even bigger lunch to keep my internal engine going Agree that initially couples will work even more, but it will be futile, they won't be able to afford the roof over their head and be repossessed. Eventually, coupled with a shrinking economy and less jobs, this will mean house prices will collapse and be affordable to single income families. Why is gold close to the peak in your opinion? It's all very well saying that, many do on here, but where is the reason why you think that? To back my side of the argument up, during the 70's gold rose from $35/Oz to $850/Oz before a return to 'high' (20%) interest rates in the US caused the bubble to pop. From trough to peak it was a 2400% increase (24x). Now, we have gold going from a low in 2001 of about $280/Oz to $1400/Oz, a trough to peak increase of 500% (5x) and we still have near 0% interest rates. This does not look like a bubble/blow-off top to me, there has been no spike and no mania yet, nor any sign of the sensible fiscal and monetary policies needed to restore faith in fiat and stop price inflation (has there Merv?). Edited January 4, 2011 by General Congreve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cica Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You get warm as toast without having a fully heated lounge, which in my case is expensive with an electric boiler. I just want to confirm too that is perfectly possible to live through a winter without using central heating at all as long as you do have something like an electric blanket in your bed. I did it last winter. This winter I also accomplished it but I've just moved to a room where I don't control the heating and my girlfriend did relapse a couple of times when her friends stayed over. You go through a few bad patches and the run to the bathroom in the morning is horrible but I'm sure advances in clothing will soon help. I have visions of us all wearing skin tight lycra-like suits that also cover hands that are efficient in gently heating and insulating our bodies in a very practical way. Central heating is overrated. Lucky really if it's only going to get more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Fair point, but that fuel price rise has just impacted on your cash flow, so you raise prices and pass the cost on the consumer, just like all your competitors. Like anything it depends on your attitude, energy, past history, experience, belief and persistence, how much personal savings you are prepared to risk/invest ie no more than 50% of total investment should be debt.....what you choose to do I said 'viable' (key word)....out of every crisis comes plenty of opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Like anything it depends on your attitude, energy, past history, experience, belief and persistence, how much personal savings you are prepared to risk/invest ie no more than 50% of total investment should be debt.....what you choose to do I said 'viable' (key word)....out of every crisis comes plenty of opportunity. I don't disagree. On a pure business basis, if you run a viable business well, you will likely succeed where others will fail. However, the policies of this government are removing wealth from the economy, thereby causing the economy to shrink, which leads to the cycle of results I originally posted, which is very positive for gold, which will give you a return on capital without all the hard work and stress and worry of running a business in a highly competitive environment. Edited January 4, 2011 by General Congreve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtomsilver Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You were doing so well otherwise. haha you are spot on and I agree with you. What I am not doing is looking to spend £280k on a house which would have been a possibility and we were in the market for one but now it's going to be £175k and even now I believe we are paying 30k over the odds for it but the village has a grade 1 primary school so we no longer need to think about school fees for our young family and it's a 10year fix mortgage rate at 5.09% and fingers crossed we will pay it off before then anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I just want to confirm too that is perfectly possible to live through a winter without using central heating at all as long as you do have something like an electric blanket in your bed. I did it last winter. This winter I also accomplished it but I've just moved to a room where I don't control the heating and my girlfriend did relapse a couple of times when her friends stayed over. You go through a few bad patches and the run to the bathroom in the morning is horrible but I'm sure advances in clothing will soon help. I have visions of us all wearing skin tight lycra-like suits that also cover hands that are efficient in gently heating and insulating our bodies in a very practical way. Central heating is overrated. Lucky really if it's only going to get more expensive. My additional electric blanket is born out of experience like you, of having one in bed. With one, you don't really need heating on in the bedroom. I'm fortunate that I live in a new development that doesn't get really cold, without heating and also have an "en suite" so the run to the bathroom isn't quite so bad, I really only feel cold, watching a bit of telly, and pratting about with on HPC with my netbook, so an electric blanket on furniture is far better than boiler running continuously to achieve a comfortable ambient temperature. You really only need the leccy blanket on for a few minutes. I agree, I think some kind of thermal, electric/chemical thermal lycra/underwear might be a solution. Probably be better than huddled over a radiator or electric fire, especially where there is more than one of you, and one always feels colder than the other. They could always turn their personal heating up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't disagree. On a pure business basis, if you run a viable business well, you will likely succeed where others will fail. However, the policies of this government are removing wealth from the economy, thereby causing the economy to shrink, which leads to the cycle of results I originally posted, which is very positive for gold, which will give you a return on capital without all the hard work and stress and worry of running a business in a highly competitive environment. So what you are saying we now have a gold bubble rather than a housing bubble....more money for nothing then...I am beginning to give up now......I recon you should start a new site...goldpricecrash .com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't have a lot of sympathy, most people have a huge amount of unnecessary spending they could cut out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) So what you are saying we now have a gold bubble rather than a housing bubble....more money for nothing then...I am beginning to give up now......I recon you should start a new site...goldpricecrash .com. I didn't say we had a gold bubble, it's a gold bull market at the moment. Look, the government is following an inflationary path to try and eliminate (stealth default) its debts. This is happening and will continue to happen. The consequence of this is that you either watch you fiat savings get trashed by the politicians or you move your savings into something they can't touch anywhere near as easily (and if they do a black market will spring up anyway). It's not about profiteering in the first instance, it's about protecting wealth from the hands of the evil BoE and government, the money-for-nothing profit aspect is just a lovely bonus. Those that wish to be martyrs at the alter of fiat because of some misplaced sense of right and wrong are welcome though. Edited January 4, 2011 by General Congreve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't understand the point of the VAT increase. With people cutting spending, leading to more retailers going bust, more unemployment and consequently less income tax, NI etc and more benefits paid out, there is absolutely no way that tax revenues will increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miko Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 1993 walked into work and someone said to me " we are getting a 3% pay rise " At first I hit the roof since leaving school in 1979 I had never had a rise that low. Then it was pointed out to me that inflation was very low and I calmed down. Maybe 1993 was a freak year and we did have low inflation . But since then we have been told how low inflation is and have had pay rises linked to the low figures. I for one minute do not beleive that over the last 18 years inflation has been anywhere near the low figures given. WE have continually been given force figures , whcih has lead to the current problems. Yes things like tv's , washing machines and computers get cheaper and cheaper all the time , but the essentials of life that we have to purchase ever week keep going up way beyound any inflation figure , travel to work, insurance, energy bills, council tax and in the last few years food. Due to the fiddled figures we have had low interest rates and the housing boom. Cheap and plentiful credit keept people feeling ok and they did not notice how much their take home pay was being eroded year on year. Tax free allowances are also linked to these false inflation figures , so as well as less pay more of it is being taxed add to that the recent rise in NI from 10% to 11% and another 1% is being added this year taking it to 12% and people are now noticing that they can not afford to live. The bit of money stolen by stealth from the masses year in year out by lets say 1% less per year in wages and another 1% per year being taxed has now really started to bite. No wonder so many people cannot afford to work and live on benefits instead . You can only ring x amount of liquid form a damp cloth . We use two things all the time words and numbers . With words if you lie you can sometimes get away with it , with numbers if you lie they will always catch you out in the end YOU CANNOT LIE WITH NUMBERS. But that is what has been happening over the last 18 + years and now the hen has come home to rooste. The figures just do not add up and we all know from the housing and banking mess that if the figures do not add up trouble followes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 So you don't disagree with the premise of my argument then? Look, the government is following an inflationary path to try and eliminate (stealth default) its debts. This is happening and will continue to happen. The consequence of this is that you either watch you fiat savings get trashed by the politicians or you move your savings into something they can't touch anywhere near as easily (and if they do a black market will spring up anyway). It's not about profiteering in the first instance, it's about protecting wealth from the hands of the evil BoE and government, the money-for-nothing profit aspect is just a lovely bonus. Those that wish to be martyrs at the alter of fiat because of some misplaced sense of right and wrong are welcome though. I can see where you are coming from so to speak....and I agree in many ways.....but the people ultimately will have the real power, they just require a little nudge from their semicomatosed state, maybe being hit hard in the pocket might awaken them to reality of what is going on and what needs to be sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Gold just looks too close to a peak for me. Good post about stay home mothers and happier families etc. If ONLY!! However I think this will have the opposite effect with couples working even MORE. For those on low wages work must be looking like a waste of time now when you can sit at home on benefits not having to pay for transport costs. I'd love to cycle to work - it's only about 8-10 miles away. I'm not the fittest... my main reasons for not doing so are: a) time is valuable to me and I get grumpy without my guitar practice - wouldn't be an efficient use of time It is absolutely FREEZING up here in Scotland c) probably a false economy as I'd need to have an even bigger lunch to keep my internal engine going Ever thought of going down the electric route? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Yes things like tv's , washing machines and computers get cheaper and cheaper all the time , but the essentials of life that we have to purchase ever week keep going up way beyound any inflation figure , travel to work, insurance, energy bills, council tax and in the last few years food. Council tax, income tax, national insurance, stamp duty etc are not included in the official inflation indices. Apparently they are not considered part of the cost of living. Strange, eh? I'm pretty sure those things cost me money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) I don't understand the point of the VAT increase. With people cutting spending, leading to more retailers going bust, more unemployment and consequently less income tax, NI etc and more benefits paid out, there is absolutely no way that tax revenues will increase. Exactly. The real way out of this mess is accepting we are poorer as a country than we pretend to be and getting on with a more impoverished life, rather than trying to fight the inevitable tide. However, this means slashing government spending MASSIVELY. The £20Bn a year cuts the coalition have made are p1ssing in the wind, and thus far this financial year the £20Bn savings that were to be made have already been swamped by increased spending elsewhere (if current predictions for spending are on target for the rest of the year). Yet, those £20Bn/year cuts are going to lead to over 350k people losing their jobs. Just imagine the carnage if they wanted to wipe out the £150Bn/year deficit completely and start paying off the £8 Trillion (the true figure) national debt! If they did that there'd be carnage on the streets, complete societal breakdown. So they choose the softer approach to the same impoverished future, via inflation. It's more voter friendly and less of a shock to the system, a bit like being dispatched with a lethal injection rather than a hammer to the head. Edited January 4, 2011 by General Congreve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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