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goldilocksporridge

Job Hunting/picky Recruiters

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Well Currently job hunting - seems to be a frustrating experience.

Many employers/agencies won't even consider your CV for a job unless you have direct experience in that particular area - instead of looking for good transferable skills or just good candidates who could do a good job of most things - that could be up and running in any job after a month. Therefore the job hunter has to go to a new job which is similar to their old one which they may have left because they wanted to try something different.

I have been in this position before - of trying to match a job specification as closely as possibly and bending over backwards to say "right" things at interviews- only to find after a month in the job the people around you have come from various different industries/careers which quite clearly don't match the background requirements you required to get the job. In fact complete career changes totally - my only guess is that they went in at a low salary to get in the door.

it seems to be get as close a match to previous job as possible - We are not talking about very specific skills(e.g software engineer), - we are talking corporate based office jobs - were many of the people don't really tangible skills other than going to meetings, emails. e.g project managers, planners, Business Analyst.

Plus many agencies want references before an interview, plus many job titles means different things in different companies.

Then there is deciding a salary level - go too high and no chance, too low and your seen as desperate. They won't give your a salary range, because they want to pin you to a level. Then were told by interview advice web sites etc, that money should not be discussed.

Then there is interviews where the common advice is to "be yourself" - Sorry to say this but, in my experience being yourself in any work environment or interview means your very quickly get shown the door. For instance if you went into an interview and started saying well things were not perfect at the last company. You get the idea.

Or there is another option of just start training in something new for a low salary - but then its getting someone to take you seriously in another industry.

How can anyone seriously plan a career or have any control with this sort of process working against you.

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I would be tempted to avoid going to agencies and focus on direct applications to companies. Agencies are even more obsessed with ticking the right boxes than internal HR drones in my experience. Also, do not disclose salary. Just tell them what you are looking for in terms of salary. Be nice but firm - tell them you would prefer not to tell them your current salary. It's private.

If you give salary they probably have some pathetic equation by which they shouldn't offer you more than 20% on top of previous salary level for your next position. These people really are drones. Remember it. Sheeple of the HR world.

Also, if you wish to change jobs a fair bit from your previous role, make sure you have your story and communicate it very persuasively in your cover letter. And focus on highlighting relevant skills and experience in your CV.

Also, find out how many interview stages are involved before you start - I would seriously consider withdrawing your application if there are 3 or more stages - that really is taking the p - HR timewasters trying to justify their positions by wasting your time.

Back in my day you got paid interview expenses. I guess that's been done away with now. However, 3 stage interviews were coming in and I simply withdrew my applications. Couldn't be bothered with the charade.

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Well Currently job hunting - seems to be a frustrating experience.

....

Plus many agencies want references before an interview, ....

....

Be very wary of those agencies that ask for references up front. Many that do this are spivs that are just harvesting leads. So your ex bosses could end up being annoyed by cold calling spivs who may quote you as their source.

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Fair enough BF - I always used the tactic and never had a problem with interviews. I guess it does depend on sector though, and how senior the position is.

"I am not allowed to disclose salary because of a contractual agreement with my current / former employer" worked well for me :lol::lol:

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Back in my day you got paid interview expenses. I guess that's been done away with now.

We still cover peoples travel and hotel costs, if we invite them for an interview.

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Meh many companies are liars and never keep their end of the bargains though, so why be truthful when they won't be either.

I remember Nigel telling me great progression in our company in 2 years time you'll be on at least double pay. I saw the job I used to do the other day advertised it was NMW and you had to pay for your own training as well.

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By the sounds of it it looks like you are after Financial Services programme/project/PMO/analyst type work ?

If so then there is loads of contract work just now. Probably not so much permanent stuff. That is the way it is going at the moment anyway.

Many of these big places are having trouble getting anyone with any relevant experience. Although as you say this is not really too important due to the job. However they would still prefer it - which does make sense if it was myself hiring I would want someone with experience as well. Even if it made my life only slightly easier - it would still be of benefit.

At present they are getting loads of ex IT bods trying to move over to the 'business' side. As that is where most of the contracts have gone.

Do you any experience in this area - business part of change/PM work/analyst etc... ? If so a contract job should be easy to get depending on where you are willing to work.

Try jobserve and do a wee search. If you have any sort of experience you should be able to get £250+ per day with ease. 5+ years and you could be looking at £400+. Management or anything in IB and more like £500.

Take advantage whilst the money is available !!

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Well Currently job hunting - seems to be a frustrating experience.

Many employers/agencies won't even consider your CV for a job unless you have direct experience in that particular area - instead of looking for good transferable skills or just good candidates who could do a good job of most things - that could be up and running in any job after a month. Therefore the job hunter has to go to a new job which is similar to their old one which they may have left because they wanted to try something different.

I have been in this position before - of trying to match a job specification as closely as possibly and bending over backwards to say "right" things at interviews- only to find after a month in the job the people around you have come from various different industries/careers which quite clearly don't match the background requirements you required to get the job. In fact complete career changes totally - my only guess is that they went in at a low salary to get in the door.

it seems to be get as close a match to previous job as possible - We are not talking about very specific skills(e.g software engineer), - we are talking corporate based office jobs - were many of the people don't really tangible skills other than going to meetings, emails. e.g project managers, planners, Business Analyst.

Plus many agencies want references before an interview, plus many job titles means different things in different companies.

Then there is deciding a salary level - go too high and no chance, too low and your seen as desperate. They won't give your a salary range, because they want to pin you to a level. Then were told by interview advice web sites etc, that money should not be discussed.

Then there is interviews where the common advice is to "be yourself" - Sorry to say this but, in my experience being yourself in any work environment or interview means your very quickly get shown the door. For instance if you went into an interview and started saying well things were not perfect at the last company. You get the idea.

Or there is another option of just start training in something new for a low salary - but then its getting someone to take you seriously in another industry.

How can anyone seriously plan a career or have any control with this sort of process working against you.

Planners, no tangible skills ROFL.

Stick one of those in your business without the right tangible skills and you can have supply chain meltdown within days.

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Planners, no tangible skills ROFL.

Stick one of those in your business without the right tangible skills and you can have supply chain meltdown within days.

I think they are talking more about someone doing a nice gant chart with MSP for a project in some form of office.

Which does actually require some sort of tangible skills and experience. Not a hell of a lot though.

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Don't contractors get their flow of contracts based upon references? Fair enough some spivs will use that name to try and get business but surely it's fair enough for you to give references, given that many of these guys get £500 a day or so?

sorry but based on 10 years on contracting the only thing a recruitment consultant wants a reference for is for fishing. If the contract exists and you are being placed for it the agent won't ask for references as it ain't worth the risk of checking them, if you aren't being put forward for the job you may as well ask for references as that may give the consultant two possible customers to hassle and annoy.

I can't remember anyone actually checking a reference in the past 5 years. The last time someone did a reference he was so surprised that he rang me to comment on the fact.

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For no reason I put that into a word cloud.

clipboard.gif

WTF? I'd never even heard of a word cloud until you posted that.

Most people with planner in their job title laugh at useless shit like that..

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Well Currently job hunting - seems to be a frustrating experience.

Many employers/agencies won't even consider your CV for a job unless you have direct experience in that particular area......

I have been in this position before - of trying to match a job specification as closely as possibly and bending over backwards to say "right" things at interviews- only to find after a month in the job the people around you have come from various different industries/careers which quite clearly don't match the background requirements you required to get the job. In fact complete career changes totally

So which is it? They dont offer jobs to career changers, but in fact yes they do...... seems to be your assertion

Plus many agencies want references before an interview,

and....

Then there is deciding a salary level - go too high and no chance, too low and your seen as desperate. They won't give your a salary range, because they want to pin you to a level. Then were told by interview advice web sites etc, that money should not be discussed.

I will declare an interest. Ive worked in recruitment for 15 years. Yes there is a heck of a lot of bad agencies out there, but i would say its probably a 50:50 split between good ones and bad ones.

You have to understand that recruitment is a process that has to suit 3 parties. If you dont want to give references, dont give them, but thats why you will only be entertained by the bottom end of the recruitment spectrum. You havent factored in an understanding of the recruiter, It really is like the auditions round of X-factor. All the fat tattoed chav girls in tracksuits who sing like a wounded mongrel have got nothing on some of the pretenders who contact agencies. Binning people is second nature and something we are increasingly de-sensitised to.

If you dont want to talk salary, dont do it. But I am not a risk taker. Not paying someone enough money is a fast-track to losing them. The job of a recruiter does go a little further than simply getting someone through the door.

Gruffyd mentioned "I am not allowed to disclose salary because of a contractual agreement with my current / former employer"

Since Oct 2010, an employer cannot prevent you from disclosing your salary. It all boils down to how much you want the job that is up for grabs. A good recruiter will quickly assess whether they want to interview you and will outline the role and scope for development and anything else that is important to the candidate (which could be any of the following:- location, employers reputation, development, status etc) before asking for something they might not want to give up such as salary expectations, references, attending interview.

If you want it enough, you will comply with the recruiters request. If you are indifferent, you wont.

The rule i always work to is that I want the candidate to tell me what they want, it is not about me telling the candidate what to tell me.

And after that, there is the indescribable 'gut feel'. This I cant explain, but it really is a 100% exact science.

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So which is it? They dont offer jobs to career changers, but in fact yes they do...... seems to be your assertion

I will declare an interest. Ive worked in recruitment for 15 years. Yes there is a heck of a lot of bad agencies out there, but i would say its probably a 50:50 split between good ones and bad ones.

You have to understand that recruitment is a process that has to suit 3 parties. If you dont want to give references, dont give them, but thats why you will only be entertained by the bottom end of the recruitment spectrum. You havent factored in an understanding of the recruiter, It really is like the auditions round of X-factor. All the fat tattoed chav girls in tracksuits who sing like a wounded mongrel have got nothing on some of the pretenders who contact agencies. Binning people is second nature and something we are increasingly de-sensitised to.

If you dont want to talk salary, dont do it. But I am not a risk taker. Not paying someone enough money is a fast-track to losing them. The job of a recruiter does go a little further than simply getting someone through the door.

Gruffyd mentioned "I am not allowed to disclose salary because of a contractual agreement with my current / former employer"

Since Oct 2010, an employer cannot prevent you from disclosing your salary. It all boils down to how much you want the job that is up for grabs. A good recruiter will quickly assess whether they want to interview you and will outline the role and scope for development and anything else that is important to the candidate (which could be any of the following:- location, employers reputation, development, status etc) before asking for something they might not want to give up such as salary expectations, references, attending interview.

If you want it enough, you will comply with the recruiters request. If you are indifferent, you wont.

The rule i always work to is that I want the candidate to tell me what they want, it is not about me telling the candidate what to tell me.

And after that, there is the indescribable 'gut feel'. This I cant explain, but it really is a 100% exact science.

Yes I agree recruitment agents are slagged of unfairly by people who have depended on them for getting jobs for them in the past. I'd love to see the go out and work in recruitment.

I disagree with this assertion that its up to the candidate - and its their choice entirely what they want to do - Unless an employers really want you to work for them, then yes they will be flexible - but I have seen numerous examples of all sorts of picky reasons that people are turned down for a job, or even people losing their job just because they have argued with the wrong person. To believe that recruitment/job hunting is some sort of fair process is niave to the real world.

Could be the fact that your experience and qualification is working against you - the employer may want less experienced people because they will work for less, and not challenge management who are perhaps not performing their jobs at 100%.

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Meh many companies are liars and never keep their end of the bargains though, so why be truthful when they won't be either.

I remember Nigel telling me great progression in our company in 2 years time you'll be on at least double pay. I saw the job I used to do the other day advertised it was NMW and you had to pay for your own training as well.

I had to post the following link - ok its about unpaid interns(which is a disgrace, you'd these companies could at least pay the minimum wage to these people) - but sadly the mindset seems to apply to companies who employ people and just mess them about, and their general attitude to employees.

Shafting Interns

Why pay your young staff? Just put ‘intern’ before their job title

Published: December 8, 2010

Posted in: Employers and recruitment, Graduate Jobs, Graduate unemployment, Media and journalism, Uncategorized, Unpaid internships

NO JOKE – AD FOR ‘INTERN RECEPTIONIST’ IS SPOTTED

Are you a loaded employer who wants more staff – but is too tight-fisted to pay their wages?

Never fear! In 2010 you CAN get something for nothing!

Simply follow Graduate Fog‘s 10-step guide to screwing over your intern:

1. Advertise your unpaid internship as a real job. Post the ad for your vacancy exactly as normal – just remember to write the word ‘Intern’ in front of the job title. That way, hundreds of eager young workers will volunteer to do it for free! If you don’t have the stomach to do this yourself, ask an agency to do your dirty work for you. Don’t lose any sleep, there’s no legal comeback – HMRC aren’t interested and the Department of Business have said there’s no money to prosecute employers who do this.

2. Big up the cool factor. If your company does anything even vaguely ‘creative’ (however tenuous) or political, you’ve hit the jackpot. Just stress in your ad that you’ll ‘provide excellent training’ and that this is a ‘fantastic opportunity to gain experience and contacts in a competitive industry’ and watch the applications roll in. Big websites like Gorkana, Journalism.co.uk, w4mp and MusicJobs will be happy to post your ad. You could also try the university careers services, many of whom are happy to promote these placements, despite pledges from AGCAS that uni careers staff would help to stamp out unpaid internships, not add to the problem. Many of them have secretly switched sides, whilst still insisting to students that they’re working in their best interests.

3. Savour that ‘Simon Cowell’ feeling. As the applications flood in, remember to shout ‘MWAH-ha-ha!’ and rub your hands in glee at the vast number of desperate graduates fighting to get a toe-hold on the first rung of their career in your sought-after industry – and thank your lucky stars that you got in when you did. As you do this, reach down and pull the ladder up a little further.

4. Save your crappiest jobs for your intern. No role is too mundane to qualify as ‘experience’ for this ‘lucky’ young person – in fact, junior admin jobs involving taxi-booking, tea-making, Excel spreadsheets and data entry are the norm. Don’t worry that your intern might not be getting anything out of their time with you – they’ll be grateful just to be in your presence, ‘soaking up’ this golden opportunity.

5. Consider hiring a ‘super-intern’. Want someone experienced for a job that’s actually quite pivotal within your company? That’s no problem either. Just specify your wish list of skills. Don’t worry, you won’t have to pay any more for an experienced worker. Gone are the days when ‘responsibility’ was something that meant you paid a BIGGER salary. In 2010, the more responsibility involved in a role, the LESS you have to pay that person. (NB This ONLY applies to junior staff members – never fear, your pay packet is safe). Remember, you are GIVING your intern experience and responsibility. Why on earth should you pay THEM? If anything, they should be paying YOU.

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