Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Kyoto

Transport Costs Through The Roof

Recommended Posts

Travel and transport costs are being hammered in every direction:

Rail season tickets burst through the £5,000 a year barrier

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/8232321/Rail-season-tickets-burst-through-the-5000-a-year-barrier.html

Air passengers face higher tax to fly from London

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8232228/Air-passengers-face-higher-tax-to-fly-from-London.html

Motorists face a new year of higher petrol prices on the forecourt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/28/drivers-face-new-year-of-petrol-price-rises

Each of these rises really hurt with regards to our competitiveness and disposable income flowing around the system.....

Just this morning I decided to skip a trip up north after balking at the £55 train fare. Had the price started with a 4, I might have gone. This decision keeps a few hundred pounds in my pocket that I would have spent on a weekend of debauchery.

I also think these big rises could be significant for the housing market. That extra £100+ a month in travel costs (on top of general inflation and VAT) really influences peoples decisions as to where they live. This could, for instance, be bullish for inner city properties which avoid any commute, whilst 2 and 3 bedroom cities in commuter towns could experience larger falls due to the cost of fuel and trains. London commuter towns could fair really badly with these outrageous season ticket prices and limited options for driving and parking within London.

The more interesting housing question though is this: Do you really want to own a house when it's a sitting duck for taxation? Just like transport and energy, you need it and you can't avoid it, so it's going to be too tempting a target for the government and the banks who own the mortgages. And once you have that same mortgage, you're trapped into being a slave to the system where 80% of your salary goes purely on existing and feeding the beast of train companies, energy companies, banks, and the government. Quality of life here is going down the toilet and owning a house gives you no escape route.

I personally am giving up on the idea of buying a house for at least a year. I recommend you do the same. Reduce your ties to those companies. Reduce your dependency on these expensive services that we have to buy from them. Most importantly, reduce your ties to this sinking hip of a country. Just tread lightly for now and survey the wreckage in a few years time.

Edited by Kyoto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of bailing out the banks thr UK govt should have spent the cash buying back the transport and energy networks.

Lower the costs , stimulate the economy that way (Average punters having more $$ in their pockets) instead of having all the profits going overseas.

That has to be better than socialising losses with taxpayer dollars whilst encouraging ever increasing profits at the expense of those very same taxpayers?? I guess i'm a socialist then?

Edited by Ruffneck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good points.. unless you are rich, why buy a house that is a sitting duck for taxation? Let alone sign away your life to a life of servitude to the banks for the mortgage. Why not just rent a modest accomadation and be free?

For transport costs I have the same feeling.. that the high costs strangle commerce before it happens. Its better in my opinion to tax income, than to put a mountain of costs before the transaction even happens.

I know this thinking is sort of contrarian but if I was in charge there would be no VAT and gas taxes would just fund an efficient system of roads. Not be a source of general taxation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of bailing out the banks thr UK govt should have spendt the cash buying back the transport and energy networks.

Lower the costs , stimulate the econokmy that way instead of having all the profits going overseas.

That has to be better than socialising losses with taxpayer dollars whilst encouraging ever increasing profits at the expense of those very same taxpayers?? I guess i'm a socialist then?

It seems like we are all turning socialist. I personally would say you believed in a mixed economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of bailing out the banks thr UK govt should have spendt the cash buying back the transport and energy networks.

Lower the costs , stimulate the econokmy that way instead of having all the profits going overseas.

That has to be better than socialising losses with taxpayer dollars whilst encouraging ever increasing profits at the expense of those very same taxpayers?? I guess i'm a socialist then?

I'm not sure if I'm a socialist. Maybe someone can tell me what I am.

I think that there's enough things for capitalists and traders to profit from and speculate on. They should be free to do so and to build business for profit from privately.

At the same time, the governments mandate should be to keep the basics in life as cheap and as widely available as possible. This includes transport, healthcare, energy, and housing costs. They can do this via ownership or legislation or whatever tools are available to them.

These two aren't necessarily at odds. This setup would mean that much more disposable money would be free to find a home in the free market economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are also at the mercy of Mad Merv and his Printing Press. If the economy starts tanking again then he'll no doubt be printing more money to give to the bankers, driving the pound down and prices up.

I'm not sure what to make of 2011, the fallout from 'the cuts' may not be even be felt given how sloth-like they are being implemented.

Some news from the coalface with regards to the VAT increase. My better half works in clothing retail and says there is no increase being applied in January. The increase has already been applied on the stock since November. Apparently the new prices are ridiculously high. I'm guessing the likes of Matalan and Tesco will benefit if High Street prices are silly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rising oil cost is what broke the back of the consumption economy (and thus exposed the debt bubble to a whiff of common sense). It will do it again, this time I suspect thise increased costs are further lockedd in - currency depreciation and duration that those increased costs have been incurred will take care of that as it is very difficult going backwards unless by outright shock treatment.

Also agree on the property taxation angle - with increased basics with increased VAT on those any further increases lumped onto that part of the economy or income will become increasingly diffcult to push through. As soo as the opportunity rises I bet rpoerty taxes will rocket - i.e. when the govt think they can get away with it without further collapsing housing prices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Each of these rises really hurt with regards to our competitiveness and disposable income flowing around the system.....

Just this morning I decided to skip a trip up north after balking at the £55 train fare. Had the price started with a 4, I might have gone. This decision keeps a few hundred pounds in my pocket that I would have spent on a weekend of debauchery.

I also think these big rises could be significant for the housing market.

Well noticed.

Now if only a few more people had noticed that problem over the decades of subsidised transport, the growth of the long commute, the demise of the village school, shop, post office, ... in summary, society getting addicted to ever-cheaper transport, then today's rises wouldn't be a problem.

The long-term legacy of cheap transport will damage us far more than HPI ever did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What higher transport costs will do is to end the commute and this is a good thing in my view.

We have had the situation in the past that people wanted to live in the country and potentially drive to work for an hour and and hour back in the evening. This is just a complete waste of resources, people time and fuel.

Just remember back to the last time when oil peaked in 2008, there was less traffic on the motorway and that traffic was going slower. This was at a time when interest rates were at normal levels so commuters did not have the buffer of being flush with cash as they are now because of low monthly mortgage payments, but they are very aware of fuel costs.

There will come a time soon, where people will expect to pay significantly less for properties in commuter villages to offset the increase in fuel costs but conversely people will pay considerably more to live in nice parts of town where the work is and they can walk, cycle or drive a short distance to work, because they will be thinking I am saving 400 pounds a month not commuting and portentially go from two cars to one.

This is already happening in the South West, a family I know bought into the commuting dream 10 years ago and then the fuel costs hit them so they put the place on the market during the 2009/10 price boom and no interest. The had to attract a local farm worker or retirees for there family house. Finally sold for 25% of and the house they bought in the town where they work was half the size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What higher transport costs will do is to end the commute and this is a good thing in my view.

We have had the situation in the past that people wanted to live in the country and potentially drive to work for an hour and and hour back in the evening. This is just a complete waste of resources, people time and fuel.

The problem though is this assumes people can afford to live in the places they work in. Also that they have a choice. I don't commute 30 miles each way for fun you know. Even when you work fairly close does not guarentee your company won't move. Hal the company I worked for moved from a retail park in NOrth Manchester to the city centre. It then moved to Stockport.

HPI means that many are priced out of homes near where they work therefore they simply have no choice but to commute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For transport costs I have the same feeling.. that the high costs strangle commerce before it happens.

I find this a continual frustration. My work is based in the southwest and needs to be, but most 'networking' and income generation is achieved in London.

I concur that transport costs may strangle productivity for individuals and small companies before it happens, you are less likely to undertake a highly speculative trip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It makes sense to live near your work!

I enjoy a drive but commuting takes the p*ss!

Reminds me of the early 80s! :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The more interesting housing question though is this: Do you really want to own a house when it's a sitting duck for taxation? Just like transport and energy, you need it and you can't avoid it, so it's going to be too tempting a target for the government and the banks who own the mortgages. And once you have that same mortgage, you're trapped into being a slave to the system where 80% of your salary goes purely on existing and feeding the beast of train companies, energy companies, banks, and the government. Quality of life here is going down the toilet and owning a house gives you no escape route.

I personally am giving up on the idea of buying a house for at least a year. I recommend you do the same. Reduce your ties to those companies. Reduce your dependency on these expensive services that we have to buy from them. Most importantly, reduce your ties to this sinking hip of a country. Just tread lightly for now and survey the wreckage in a few years time.

Good advice, although I'd wait four or more years before buying. Personally, I abandoned the UK for Poland, savings rate on the Zloty is 5%, increasing 0.5% soon and inflation 3%, pretty much certain to apreciate against the Euro over the next few years as well.

One thing I found, its cheaper to go to a Northern town, such as Hull, for a night out (including the train fare to get there) than it is in London.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What higher transport costs will do is to end the commute and this is a good thing in my view.

There will come a time soon, where people will expect to pay significantly less for properties in commuter villages to offset the increase in fuel costs but conversely people will pay considerably more to live in nice parts of town where the work is and they can walk, cycle or drive a short distance to work, because they will be thinking I am saving 400 pounds a month not commuting and portentially go from two cars to one.

The affect of higher oil prices on the USA will be interesting. Devastating to the Suburbs to be exact.

Edited by Peter Hun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The affect of higher oil prices on the USA will be interesting. Devastating to the Suburbs to exact.

Correct, during the time when gas was over 4bucks a gallon in the US I was in LA and at the weekends it was surreal the roads were empty, people were staying at home or local.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The affect of higher oil prices on the USA will be interesting. Devastating to the Suburbs to exact.

Dr Bubb kept going on about this, in my experience of the US he's right. And without all the tax that we have on our fuel the US government's room for manouvere is very limited.

I would have a cross-subsidy from petrol / diesel to public transport funded by an increase in fuel prices. That would reduce road congestion and encourage more rail freight. As it stands I do not even consider public transport - it's inconvenient and more expensive than driving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything that relies on finite fossil fuels is only going to get more and more expensive as the worldwide demand grows for a diminishing resource.

I would have a cross-subsidy from petrol / diesel to public transport funded by an increase in fuel prices.
That would be great if it really led to reductions in train and bus fares. But I suspect that, in the way of things, the operators would just say that cross subsidy means smaller price rises than would otherwise be the case!

Here's another similar idea: The road tax for heavy goods vehicles is very expensive. Why not offer a much reduced concession for any top-weight artics that are used only in a restricted radius in association with collection and delivery of containers for the nearest rail container terminal.

Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have a cross-subsidy from petrol / diesel to public transport funded by an increase in fuel prices. That would reduce road congestion and encourage more rail freight. As it stands I do not even consider public transport - it's inconvenient and more expensive than driving.

Yeah and that tends to be the case for one person in the car too. If you compare the price of two train tickets to the price of driving two people somewhere then the car is always the star.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Difficulty here is, people persist in thinking that they should commute to work rather than locate within walking distance, at least between holidays.

Obviously for London, locating locally vs lenghthy commute is a bit of a toss-up, both options being expensive.

If the rail companies were allowed to charge what the market will bear, rather that all this pinko regulation nonsense,

Mr Market would find a solution.

For example, organisations which presently fund season tickets for their employees might instead invest in dormitory accomodation

for their staff. Innovative architecture could make this economically viable even in central London if creativity was unleashed in order

to achieve sufficient density. Look at Tokyo hotels for example.

And most offices already provide kitchen facilities. What's more, if we were not stifled by regulation we would be able to buy hot porridge from enterprising street vendors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...what is wrong with companies providing travel expenses, after all it is them that want you to work for them....if they have to import skills from overseas, I can't see a problem with them paying for peoples travel costs nearer to home. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...what is wrong with companies providing travel expenses, after all it is them that want you to work for them....if they have to import skills from overseas, I can't see a problem with them paying for peoples travel costs nearer to home. ;)

The joke is that many of the imported workers get both their accommodation and travel expenses paid tax free by their employers for up to 24 months.

For all UK employees such payments would be treated as taxable benefits and subjected to Tax/NIC (ie home to work travel and living expenses are regarded as taxable perks for UK citizens but not for foreigners working here)

Edited by realcrookswearsuits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, just greed.

The rail monopolies have got you by the short and curlies...they know you have to get to work, so will have to pay the price......you wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't for the fact that the trains are old and over crowded and not always reliable...not a pleasant traveling experience, paying such a high price to be transported like cattle. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.