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Mikhail Liebenstein

Sicko Films As He Kills 2 Kittens In A Vacuum Bag

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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3316797/Sickos-film-as-he-kills-2-kittens-in-vacuum-bag.html

Ok, not a nice story for Christmas about a nasty sick chav horribly killing two kittens - but I am so appalled that I decided to post - if you are an animal lover of a delicate disposition you may not want to read this.

This guy needs to be hunted down and dealt with. This is the sort of person who turns into a ripper killer. Frankly when he is found I don't think the UK legal system is equipped to do justice, so I won't care if he is taken by a mob.

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Ok, not a nice story for Christmas about a nasty sick chav horribly killing two kittens - but I am so appalled that I decided to post - if you are an animal lover of a delicate disposition you may not want to read this.

This guy needs to be hunted down and dealt with. This is the sort of person who turns into a ripper killer. Frankly when he is found I don't think the UK legal system is equipped to do justice, so I won't care if he is taken by a mob.

I thought even the RSPCA killed animals they were unable to house?

Funny how perceptions change.. it was only 30 odd years ago it would have been perfectly common to drown unwanted kittens/puppies.

I wonder if my turkey today was killed so humanely.. :unsure:

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Guest The Relaxation Suite

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3316797/Sickos-film-as-he-kills-2-kittens-in-vacuum-bag.html

Ok, not a nice story for Christmas about a nasty sick chav horribly killing two kittens - but I am so appalled that I decided to post - if you are an animal lover of a delicate disposition you may not want to read this.

This guy needs to be hunted down and dealt with. This is the sort of person who turns into a ripper killer. Frankly when he is found I don't think the UK legal system is equipped to do justice, so I won't care if he is taken by a mob.

I see no reason why he shouldn't be put in a vacuum bag and suffocated, as a form of punishment. I mean I see no ethical reason why this cannot be done.

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I thought you were a better poster than that.

Although it may have been common, it's debatable whether it was acceptable, ever. <_<

I think you are correct that the RSPCA do put animals down, but don't they do it in a humane manner?

I haven't read the story, nor do I want to, but I'm wondering if you are for the death penalty for humans in certain circumstances, there is a reason for my asking.

It was on the the Daily Mail site for a couple of days. I didn't read read it.

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I thought you were a better poster than that.

Although it may have been common, it's debatable whether it was acceptable, ever. <_<

I think you are correct that the RSPCA do put animals down, but don't they do it in a humane manner?

I haven't read the story, nor do I want to, but I'm wondering if you are for the death penalty for humans in certain circumstances, there is a reason for my asking.

More an observation of human psychology.

As far as I can tell (although there is not much detail), the kittens died of asphyxiation which I believe to be one of the nicer ways to die (you fall asleep). I would have thought that was equally/less cruel than electrocution/decapitation/bolt.. yet the latter is considered perfectly acceptable in society.

I think people are shocked when they are confronted with death and don't realise that this happens all the time.. only usually it's chickens, pigs etc etc.

As far as my personal position on the death penalty, no I don't agree with it. If you murder someone for murdering someone, how are you better than they? I don't necessarily believe in an eye for an eye.

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The reason I said I expected better, was I felt you were attempting to present a straw man argument.

Whether animals are breed for food (and suffer which I've no doubt some do) doesn't negate what this scum bag has done.

Now, I'm sure you are aware but as you mention human psychology, those how kill animals for fun are pretty close to going to the next next step which is killing people.

I'll take your word for that. Don't enjoy your left overs too much tomorrow.. ;)

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This guy needs to be hunted down and dealt with. This is the sort of person who turns into a ripper killer. Frankly when he is found I don't think the UK legal system is equipped to do justice, so I won't care if he is taken by a mob.

Yep. Cruelty to animals is not dealt with well by the legal system. Wanton cruelty to animals as a child or teenager is recognised as a sign of psychopathy - and the world could do with a few fewer of those. If you can do that to a kitten, then your behaviour towards your fellow man is likely to be, figuratively if not literally, no better.

Interestingly, there is a comment on the article claiming to be from someone from Anonymous. Quite believable as that group has a history of being very cat friendly. I hope they get him...I really do.

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Yep. Cruelty to animals is not dealt with well by the legal system. Wanton cruelty to animals as a child or teenager is recognised as a sign of psychopathy - and the world could do with a few fewer of those. If you can do that to a kitten, then your behaviour towards your fellow man is likely to be, figuratively if not literally, no better.

I agree that we could do with fewer teenagers. Too many incoherent conversations, too much bodily fluid.

Cruelty to pets is wrong, but I don't see why people should be prosecuted for it. There is no real distinction between this behaviour and the normal slaughter of animals for food. Slaughter of humans is the serious point, including the threat of slaughter.

Maybe it is a symptom of psychopathy, but so what? A psychopath does what he will. And the argument about it being an indicator of behaviour toward people is mixed up - those who are outraged by this aren't justifying their outrage by appealing to the human consequences, but are really trying to impose their sentimentality on people of common sense.

For me, the reaction is a bit school marmish. Nasty behaviour, but nothing to get upset about.

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Cruelty to pets is wrong, but I don't see why people should be prosecuted for it. There is no real distinction between this behaviour and the normal slaughter of animals for food. Slaughter of humans is the serious point, including the threat of slaughter.

Of course there is a big difference in how an animal is despatched -- slaughter is not cruel when it's done right.

See here: http://www.grandin.com/

That guy was simply lucky that the method he chose was reasonably humane, he could have easily done something far worse.

And since you asked, the reason we prosecute people for abusing animals is that we know the difference between slaughter and abuse very well...!

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You really are a messed up cuckoo aren't you cuckoo, how any one with a grasp of the issues surrounding the wanton killing for psychopathic fun can attempt to say this is the same as killing animals for food really needs to get out more.

Unless you used to kill animals for fun when you were younger which may obviously point to a feral nah f-ed up, upbringing. <_<

Edit: Clarity.

Lots of adults kill animals for fun e.g. grouse shoots. Also, millions of kids in many cultures learn to hunt that way (as do animals such as kittens, for example). Not that we have to hunt our food in the west anymore.

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Of course there is a big difference in how an animal is despatched -- slaughter is not cruel when it's done right.

See here: http://www.grandin.com/

That guy was simply lucky that the method he chose was reasonably humane, he could have easily done something far worse.

And since you asked, the reason we prosecute people for abusing animals is that we know the difference between slaughter and abuse very well...!

I'd be happier if supermarket food were labelled if the animal was killed without stunning i.e. halal and kosher. According to todays Sunday Times an attempt by the EU to let me choose thusly by a food label was defeated by muslim and jewish group on the grounds that "if you are only labelling meat provided for muslims and jews you are discriminating against muslims and jews."

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I'd be happier if supermarket food were labelled if the animal was killed without stunning i.e. halal and kosher. According to todays Sunday Times an attempt by the EU to let me choose thusly by a food label was defeated by muslim and jewish group on the grounds that "if you are only labelling meat provided for muslims and jews you are discriminating against muslims and jews."

Kosher/halal meat is almost always laced with stress hormones and it does not bleed out properly either.

Bon appetite to all...

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Are you saying by eating this type of meat, the recipient ingests these and as such could suffer from these issues stated here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_hormone

Yep.

See also here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N-bzTWCl8LkC&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=meat+science+pork+stress+hormones&source=bl&ots=l8-CEtXgKz&sig=UNMiZaN1V4cg0LbDXKqabPmmAXc&hl=en&ei=rcEXTaOKHcG0hAfivbi4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false and that talks about properly slaughtered animals, I'd hate to see what the levels will be in one that took 5 long minutes to die after numerous fails. See Temple Grandin's paper on the subject as well.

Edit: 5 minutes, not 15. Still, way too long.

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Of course there is a big difference in how an animal is despatched -- slaughter is not cruel when it's done right.

See here: http://www.grandin.com/

That guy was simply lucky that the method he chose was reasonably humane, he could have easily done something far worse.

And since you asked, the reason we prosecute people for abusing animals is that we know the difference between slaughter and abuse very well...!

On the last question, do we know that? I'd be interested to see the rationale for prosecuting people for cruelty to animals and how it distinguishes from slaughter. I suspect it's nothing to do with the animals.

I won't reply to Bulltraderpt. Fanatics go for the jugular, rather than debate.

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On the last question, do we know that? I'd be interested to see the rationale for prosecuting people for cruelty to animals and how it distinguishes from slaughter. I suspect it's nothing to do with the animals.

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:blink:

Well some of us know the difference, but you don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two so perhaps my initial assessment which you called 'fanatical' was too close to home. :unsure:

I think he is trolling... he sounds like those vegetarian nihilists who think that not living in the first place is better than dying eventually, and who want to arrange for the deliberate extinction of our domesticated animals, including all our pets.

Edit: They even have a slogan for this concept: "One generation, over and out."

All he needs to do to answer his question is read Temple Grandin's papers, she explains in great details what is and isn't animal abuse.

Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ycu3JFRrA

and her books also are a great read!

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On the last question, do we know that? I'd be interested to see the rationale for prosecuting people for cruelty to animals and how it distinguishes from slaughter. I suspect it's nothing to do with the animals.

I won't reply to Bulltraderpt. Fanatics go for the jugular, rather than debate.

Pretty much the same rationale that means I'm happy for a surgeon to cut someone up but not any old random person on the street who might to find that fun. There are situations where I'm not upset with a soldier shooting someone, but by your logic there should be no difference between that and a nutter with a gun going on a shooting spree.

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On the last question, do we know that? I'd be interested to see the rationale for prosecuting people for cruelty to animals and how it distinguishes from slaughter. I suspect it's nothing to do with the animals.

You have to be a bit careful okaycuckoo.. this is an emotive issue for many.

There is no actual difference between the two other than the amount of pain inflicted. As a case in point, if the guy had sat down and eaten the kittens afterwards I can't imagine people would suddenly then consider it ok.. despite how they may otherwise justify slaughter.

The point is we are conditioned to think some forms of animal cruelty are acceptable and others are unimaginable.

In this particular case we don't know anything about the motive or the suffering.. we just presume he buys kittens in order to inflict pain on them. If he is doing it just to inflict pain then he needs a good clip around the ear. If he did it because he has unwanted kittens he can't get rid of, then he's just chosen a fairly unorthodox method for doing exactly what the RSPCA would do anyway.

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I love how they call him a fiend and a monster.

Highly possible this bloke has some sort of serious mental issue. Not condoning what he did - but he maybe is a proper 'sicko'.

I also love how the Sun makes sure and uses the word 'cute' in relation to the animals.

Make exactly the same video of 2 cockroaches and see how excitable the population and media get. :rolleyes:

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Make exactly the same video of 2 cockroaches and see how excitable the population and media get. :rolleyes:

For some reason fishing never seems quite so contentious either.

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For some reason fishing never seems quite so contentious either.

Yep. I have bashed to death using a Gerber about 10 poor mackerel in my time. I also took a pic of the finished article and sent it to a few people including my Mum. I must be a monster too.

I await the Sun doing an expose on me. :lol:

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In this particular case we don't know anything about the motive or the suffering.. we just presume he buys kittens in order to inflict pain on them. If he is doing it just to inflict pain then he needs a good clip around the ear. If he did it because he has unwanted kittens he can't get rid of, then he's just chosen a fairly unorthodox method for doing exactly what the RSPCA would do anyway.

That's why IMO motive can wholly define whether or not a particular action is acceptable (even if it's unpleasant) or utterly reprehensible. If it's your latter case then provided there's no more suffering then in "acceptable" methods you'd have to accept it, but the fact that he filmed it is downright suspicious to say the least.

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More an observation of human psychology.

As far as I can tell (although there is not much detail), the kittens died of asphyxiation which I believe to be one of the nicer ways to die (you fall asleep). I would have thought that was equally/less cruel than electrocution/decapitation/bolt.. yet the latter is considered perfectly acceptable in society.

I think people are shocked when they are confronted with death and don't realise that this happens all the time.. only usually it's chickens, pigs etc etc.

As far as my personal position on the death penalty, no I don't agree with it. If you murder someone for murdering someone, how are you better than they? I don't necessarily believe in an eye for an eye.

This is an interesting point because there was an article on the Mail site today about the queen wearing fur with many coming out in support for fur.

The undercover films of fur farms show the animals having their skin pulled off in one go once still alive, and then left to die. How they die or how long it takes who knows? Suffocating would be preferable to this. Yet there is widespread support for fur?

People are very emotional and inconsistent when it comes to animals.

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This is an interesting point because there was an article on the Mail site today about the queen wearing fur with many coming out in support for fur.

The undercover films of fur farms show the animals having their skin pulled off in one go once still alive, and then left to die. How they die or how long it takes who knows? Suffocating would be preferable to this. Yet there is widespread support for fur?

People are very emotional and inconsistent when it comes to animals.

I'm 100% certain that skinning a mammal alive is illegal (and rightly so), and not really relevant re support, or opposition, to farming animals for their skin as opposed to just their meat.

I grew up in a semi rural area and worked on a farm in the school hols doing stuff like killing chickens, and the farmer was very matter of fact about killing animals (obviously), but the rule was to make it quick and clean. Skinning an animal alive could and should result in a big fine or a prison sentence, it's a step beyond callous and into psycho territory.

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You know the rules. If it has fur and paws it's an outrage if you smash it over the head with a club. If it has scales, and you rip its mouth off with your hook, then smash it death with a club just so you can use it as bait to try and catch a bigger fish (when you'll the repeat the process) then it's perfectly acceptable sport.

Not exactly comparing like with like. Mammals do have somewhat more advanced brains. Cats and pigs are a better comparison. Both quite intelligent and I believe have self awareness.

I accept killing pigs because they are eaten (no one ever said the world was a nice place). This is a respectful use of the animal. Wasting meat is unethical. I remember being quite sickened by a restaurant I ate at in New York which prided itself on servings so large no one could finish them - 72 ounce steaks etc.Most plates went back to the kitchen with half of the meat uneaten which then went straight into a dumpster.

Similalrly, I'm not happy with sloppy abattoir practices. I'd rather pay a little more for my meat knowing that the animal was dispatched as quickly and as cleanly as possible than save a few pennies and have animals suffer, as clearly the PETA videos show they do in some slaughterhouses.

Killing a kitten (or a baby pig) in an experimental manner for sicko thrills and youtube notoriety is a completely different act. It shows no respect for the life that is being taken. The animal was alive. Sicko killed it, and then most likely discarded the body. To me at least, this act qualitatively different to killing as humanely as possible for food.

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