Just Got Back From Greece ..

[Oliver Sutton]

My main point was the initial sentence. The EU have more or less wiped out national sovereignty as well as common sense. For chrissakes, they were telling the Irish when they could and could not have elections no so long ago.

The example I gave indicated how trivial and invasive the effects of this legislative orgy has been - in this case manufacturer's desgins being overruled by zealous bureaucrats because of a few incidents with no understanding of the context. You can find examples of this stuff everywhere and it has most definitely affected you, whether you realise it or not, for example:

(1) Under regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 cucumbers were only allowed a bend of 10mm for every 10cm of length. (This one has been recently scrapped, but it gives an idea of just how overarching, invasive and ridiculous EU legislation has become.) Sainsbury's was going to run a halloween promotion last year, selling misshapen frankenfruit, and willing to run the legal risk as a corporation, but backed down when they realised that individual staff members could be prosecuted under EU law. This particular legislation means that many thousands of tons of fruit and veg are ploughed back into the fields every year, increasing the cost of food to you and everyone else. Did you vote for expensive food and the right not to be able to buy bent cucumbers? link

(2) Or, you could consider the recent (2009) EU law which will come into force withint the next 6 months (iirc) which requires consent for website to store or access cookies on your computer: http://register.cons...t03674.en09.pdf

or else you will be liable for a £5000 fine. How many non-professional web developers know about this? How many EU regulations are you breaking that you have no knowledge of?

(3) What about directive 2002/20 that, through a chain of events has meant that the RNLI and other emergency services have had to increase their payments to use a dedicated wavelength for their communications by a factor of 6? link (That link also points out that EU procurement directives were the reason the Post-Office lost the right to distribute pensions.) Doesn't this seem like an undemocratic imposition of ridiculous costs onto sovereign nations to you?

There are literally thousands of such examples across all walks of life where EU legislation and directives are impinging upon your life, either directly in some fashion, or indirectly through increased costs. Did you vote for this bureaucracy? Would you even know how to begin to democratically combat some directive given that your parliament cannot do anything about it without coming into conflict with the EU parliament? Does it seem the actions of a democractic EU that the UK can be effectively fined £150,000,000 pounds for not flying the EU flag where the EU sees fit? fine link

Does it seem reasonable that the EU can force the UK to prohibit people selling food stuffs etc. in imperial weights? (Perversely, cider and beer must be sold in pints in the UK; a Polish restauranter in the UK was fined for selling beer by the litre!) Worse still, the directive was to prohibit dual labelling, i.e. once it came into force you would not be allowed to label in imperial and metric units. Who makes this stuff up? It would be fine if they said you have to have EU agreed upon units prominently somewhere on the packaging, but to demand that you cannot dual label smacks of authoritarianism. This last directive was meant to come into full force by 2009, but trade issues with the US have caused it to be put on hold...I suppose money always talks.

And let's not even begin to think about what is behind the totalitarian police state's wet dream EU Directive 2006/24/EC (The Data Retention Directive.)

So, as I said above, you just haven't been paying attention.

(As for the aluminium cylinders, the particular legislation would have little effect on professional divers as their kit wouldn't be much affected, but it has had a significant effect on non-professionals who cannot afford their own gas filling stations. I offered 2 old style cylinders for sale 3 years ago. I am still getting e-mails every month from people desperate to pay over the odds for what was sold in a day of being advertised for well over the price of a new cylinder. They also wanted to legislate changes cylinder fittings that would have cost many technical divers a good thousand pounds and caused all sorts of strife for other casual divers.)

All pretty trivial stuff.

If there are thousands of examples couldn't you come up with something more substantial?

As for increased costs, it's quite the reverse.

Imagine a business exporting to Europe having to deal with 27 different types of standards instead of just one? Now that would be increased costs.

[ShedDweller]

Apart from the fact that there are very few railways in Greece (and they were purely built for the benefit of French and German train manufacturers and construction companies, not because there was a need for them) so a train-driver's salary is completely insignificant in the bigger picture (most transport is by bus, lorries and ferries), the NYT is as much an "Elite" controlled MSM as the german Spiegel, they are purely trying put Greece in a bad light to justify the economic 'terrorism' that's being force upon Greece.

I don't think that suggesting a Greek train drivers salary is "insignificant" when the railways lose so much money that it would be cheaper for the government if they just paid for a Taxi for every person who wanted to use the trains ...

Economic terrorism? I think the Greeks defrauded the rest of the EU .. but I wouldn't call it terrorism. To me economic terroroism is the the network of bribes that underpin Greek government. Economic terrorism is having to wait for nine hours at Kulata because the Greek customs officials "suspect I'm importing equipment from outside the EU" .. Despite the fact that I have no stamps to say I've left the EU in the last month .. My car is EU registered and this is an EU border crossing .. but as I'm constantly reminded .. "This is Greece it's different" ..

Next job after that was moved to Sofia .. because it's easier ..

[babesagainstmachines]

Injin, is that you?

It's true though. Or did you volunteer to become a subject of The Queen?

[ShedDweller]

All pretty trivial stuff.

If there are thousands of examples couldn't you come up with something more substantial?

As for increased costs, it's quite the reverse.

Imagine a business exporting to Europe having to deal with 27 different types of standards instead of just one? Now that would be increased costs.

100% .. in 1992 if I needed to do a job in Germany .. I would have to get a Carnet (£1000) and then have it stamped at Dover .. Calais .. France-Belgium ..Belgium - Germany Then in order to work in Germany I would need a Work Permit. Nowadays alot of countries will issue short work permit very easily .. (Canada, Aus, NZ, Mexico) but others (Argentina, Serbia are a nightmare) Germany was pretty simple but burocratic .. and took a minimum of a fortnight .. The removal of these restrictions has made my buisness possible in the EU ..

You find that most "Anti-Europeans" are prejudiced as opposed to rational .. If they were rational then the things they would attack would be the massive Fraud and waste in the infrastructure fund .. instead they go on about diving cylinders (which is plainly a plus as the same cylinders are now approved for sale in all EU countries .. Which must benefit both the Manufacturer and the purchasers ..).

[indirectapproach]

If you can look beyond the end of your nose.

[Big Orange]

Imagine a business exporting to Europe having to deal with 27 different types of standards instead of just one? Now that would be increased costs.

The Euro currency is a shambles, but it had good intentions: a decade or so ago I remember being on a cross channel ferry and onboard there was a huge row of currency booths for the different countries that weren't so far away and having a single currency seemed like a good idea at the time, due to the ease of mass travel.

I can see the potential benefits of the EU, but I'm not rabidly pro-EU since I voted UKIP a while back, since EU grant money is often behind businesses like Cadbury's upping sticks and moving to poorer countries, while at the same time the EU indirectly let in too many immigrant workers too soon - unfair and unsustainable for indiginous people - but as clearly imperfect as the European Union is I've grown wary of anti-EU sentiments for the sake of it and UKIP come across as a "diet" BNP for posh people, reactionary and simple minded amateurs like American Teabaggers.

Also anti-EU movement tends to attract a disproportionate amount of batshits and a lot of the Greeks come across as rather paranoid and childishly nationalistic, like so many other people from "young" nations with a chip on their shoulders stemming from comparatively recent foreign occupation (like the two Koreas, etc).

Edited December 26, 2010 by Big Orange

[Tiger Woods?]

100% .. in 1992 if I needed to do a job in Germany .. I would have to get a Carnet (£1000) and then have it stamped at Dover .. Calais .. France-Belgium ..Belgium - Germany Then in order to work in Germany I would need a Work Permit. Nowadays alot of countries will issue short work permit very easily .. (Canada, Aus, NZ, Mexico) but others (Argentina, Serbia are a nightmare) Germany was pretty simple but burocratic .. and took a minimum of a fortnight .. The removal of these restrictions has made my buisness possible in the EU ..

You find that most "Anti-Europeans" are prejudiced as opposed to rational .. If they were rational then the things they would attack would be the massive Fraud and waste in the infrastructure fund .. instead they go on about diving cylinders (which is plainly a plus as the same cylinders are now approved for sale in all EU countries .. Which must benefit both the Manufacturer and the purchasers ..).

Good grief. No one said that there weren't advantages to standardisation etc. across national boundaries. Some harmonisation across national boundaries is a good thing if it facillitates business. I don't think many "anti-europeans" would disagree with that. The problem is the massive fraud, bureaucracy, waste and lack of accountability. However, how does it help anyone that the EU has legislated the allowable bend in cucumbers? The point is that there are thousands of regulations like this which are a dreadful waste. The 150 million pound fine that I mentioned in my post was not a single fine levied on the UK government, rather it was a clawing back of funds assigned to hundreds and thousands of organisations because their materials were no deemed satisfactory i.e. there is a whole bureaucracy scanning all their publicity material etc. to ensure it has the EU logo etc. in the correct place and clawing back funds if it was not. This is p*ssing money up the wall.

I knew I shouldn't have posted simple examples as evidence of this over regulation because most of the pro-europeans are too thick and indoctrinated to see what is plainly in front of their eyes. (By the way, in the case of diving cylinders it wasn't about harmonisation, it was about bureaucrats attempting to solve a problem they perceived and creating new ones instead...but please forget I ever mentioned it as it isn't important. The whole point about mentioning diving cylinders was that it is absurd and relevant to only a few people...but the EU has felt necessary to stick its nose into the issue multiple times.)

The logical conclusion to your argument is for every one to use a single means of exchange...a single currency perhaps. That'll really simplify cross border business transactions. Ireland is a smoking ruin, in part because they joined the euro.

[Tiger Woods?]

The Euro currency is a shambles, but it had good intentions: a decade or so ago I remember being on a cross channel ferry and onboard there was a huge row of currency booths for the different countries that weren't so far away and having a single currency seemed like a good idea at the time, due to the ease of mass travel.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Arguing that the single currency is a good thing due to mass travel (a reason that was always adduced in the newspapers when the EU was being sold to the public) is crazy. Nations have their own currencies so they can control their economies. Using a single currency and interest rate across so many different economies was always going to end in disaster and misery for many. That isn't jingoism. It is economics 101. Quite frankly, if the Irish had their time again, I'm sure most'd be happier to have to have spent 5 minutes changing some punts at the Bureau du Change on their way to Magalouf than deal with the mess they are now in.

That a single currency makes business transactions across borders easier and more certain is certainly a benefit, but then there are all sorts of associated costs with imbalanced economies that perhaps aren't so obvious. Yes, my business selling widgets abroad might thrive for some time as I have firm prices for buying components and receive a firm price for orders of my widgets...but is that worth it if the whole economy goes tits up after 15 years?

Edited to add: By the way, I'm not British. I'm not even European, so my views on this aren't tainted by nationalism.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Tiger Woods?

[Big Orange]

I wouldn't be too dependent on the UK's Europhobic media, Tiger, even the BBC can get carried away and the UK media can easily go nuts on the most obscure, negligible legistlation drafted by the hard to understand and easy to demonise EU.

[Mrs Bear]

Apart from the fact that there are very few railways in Greece (and they were purely built for the benefit of French and German train manufacturers and construction companies, not because there was a need for them) so a train-driver's salary is completely insignificant in the bigger picture (most transport is by bus, lorries and ferries), the NYT is as much an "Elite" controlled MSM as the german Spiegel, they are purely trying put Greece in a bad light to justify the economic 'terrorism' that's being force upon Greece.

There was an extensive Vanity Fair (I think) article on the Greek mess in the summer.

According to that, the average Greek railway worker's salary is about 60K euros, and in fact rather than running a railway at all it would be cheaper for the Greek govt. to pay for everyone who currently uses trains to go by taxi, instead.

[Big Orange]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Arguing that the single currency is a good thing due to mass travel (a reason that was always adduced in the newspapers when the EU was being sold to the public) is crazy. Nations have their own currencies so they can control their economies. Using a single currency and interest rate across so many different economies was always going to end in disaster and misery for many. That isn't jingoism. It is economics 101. Quite frankly, if the Irish had their time again, I'm sure most'd be happier to have to have spent 5 minutes changing some punts at the Bureau du Change on their way to Magalouf than deal with the mess they are now in.

That a single currency makes business transactions across borders easier and more certain is certainly a benefit, but then there are all sorts of associated costs with imbalanced economies that perhaps aren't so obvious. Yes, my business selling widgets abroad might thrive for some time as I have firm prices for buying components and receive a firm price for orders of my widgets...but is that worth it if the whole economy goes tits up after 15 years?

I can't really disagree with that, though the Euro would've worked fine with the much larger, more robust French and German economies, with even Britain joining. The mistake was applying the Euro currency onto the much smaller, comparatively impoverished, too culturally different countries like Ireland and Greece way too quickly, but a failed currency does not necessily kill the "spirit" of the EU and we could replace it with something better.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Big Orange

[Tiger Woods?]

I wouldn't be too dependent on the UK's Europhobic media, Tiger, even the BBC can get carried away and the UK media can easily go nuts on the most obscure, negligible legistlation drafted by the hard to understand and easy to demonise EU.

Yes. They got the "straight bananas" story wrong too...but the cucumber rules were correct (but repealed...though there are still plenty of regulations on kiwi fruit and peaches etc.), and the Sainsbury's story was true as well.

My problem with the EU is that they have pushed things too far - the euro being the prime example. One can have useful cooperation and harmonisation without complete integration. It is patently clear that those behind the EU are undemocratic. I think Janet Daley put it nicely when she said:

What the new accession countries will soon come to realise is that to join the EU is to enter into a tacit pact in which democracy as we now understand it comes low on the list of priorities: those who framed the new Europe in the wake of two world wars came to a conscious decision that the terrible crimes of the twentieth century could be traced directly to the democratic revolutions of the eighteenth, and that the mass will of the people was a dangerous force which had to be closely controlled by a self-appointed oligarchy. Europe is now entering a post-democratic age.

Didn't Mandelson, the ex-communist, say more or less the same thing not so long ago?

Edited December 26, 2010 by Tiger Woods?

[Tiger Woods?]

I can't really disagree with that, though the Euro would've worked fine with the much larger, more robust French and German economies, with even Britain joining. The mistake was applying the Euro currency onto the much smaller, comparatively impoverished, too culturally different countries like Ireland and Greece way too quickly, but a failed currency does not necessily kill the "spirit" of the EU and we could replace it with something better.

France, Germany and Britain and some of the other northern countries could perhaps have had a functioning single currency. As you have stated, the problem was bringing in the PIIGS whose economies were very different to Germany and France. (On the otherhand, it is arguable that even the GBP is too coarse a currency for the entirety of the UK.) The fact is though, the PIIGS were brought in and this, to me, is strong evidence of the misguided path down which the EU is being driven, which will lead to its downfall or at least misery for many. Harmonisation and cooperation across Europe are certainly something to aim for, as it is a natural geographic trading block, but the current path is anti-democratic, bereaucratic, authoritarian and driven by ideology rather than the necessary pragmatism.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Tiger Woods?

[billybong]

..those who framed the new Europe in the wake of two world wars came to a conscious decision that the terrible crimes of the twentieth century could be traced directly to the democratic revolutions of the eighteenth, and that the mass will of the people was a dangerous force which had to be closely controlled by a self-appointed oligarchy.

We've seen so called democracy at work only too well in recent times and neatly demonstrated yet again just recently with the pledges on student fees etc - and which mass of people voted for "the terrible crimes".

It's the same the whole world over

It's the poor what gets the blame

It's the rich what gets the gravy

Ain't it all a bleeding shame.

Edited December 26, 2010 by billybong

[Tiger Woods?]

There was an extensive Vanity Fair (I think) article on the Greek mess in the summer.

According to that, the average Greek railway worker's salary is about 60K euros, and in fact rather than running a railway at all it would be cheaper for the Greek govt. to pay for everyone who currently uses trains to go by taxi, instead.

Only if they use their meters.

The half dozen times I've used an Athenian taxi, I spent the entire ride wishing I was on a train, or on a donkey or in a small turkish prison cell...scary stuff.

[Tiger Woods?]

We've seen so called democracy at work only too well in recent times and neatly demonstrated yet again just recently with the pledges on student fees etc - and which mass of people voted for "the terrible crimes".

It's the same the whole world over

It's the poor what gets the blame

It's the rich what gets the gravy

Ain't it all a bleeding shame.

It is hardly democracy is it. Not everyone has thought well of democracy. Plato and Socrates certainly weren't fans. On the positive side, if we had a democracy in anything other than name, the UK would not have become embroiled in Iraq...on the negative side democracies always end up as failing demagogueries when the public realise they can vote themselves payments from the treasury.

There has to be a better way.

[billybong]

It is hardly democracy is it. Not everyone has thought well of democracy. Plato and Socrates certainly weren't fans. On the positive side, if we had a democracy in anything other than name, the UK would not have become embroiled in Iraq...on the negative side democracies always end up as failing demagogueries when the public realise they can vote themselves payments from the treasury.

There has to be a better way.

Just keeping manifesto promises would be a welcome start.

[bpw]

A US so called journalist tried to 'interrogate' an Middle Eastern minister on the corruption index on TV. The end result was a stand off..... who is to say that misallocation of IMF funds is any worse than the US and UK who deliberately sold toxic securities to the ME, Asia et al..... from what i read around 2trln dollars worth.

Truth and corruption are relative

Why? Because some official body or other says so? What a ludicrous, unquantifiable statistic. Would like to hear said body substantiate or qualify it.

[indirectapproach]

I think it's time to face up to it.

The people who have been cheating, swindling and ripping off the Greeks; the people who have been lying, false accounting and committing economic terrorism against the Greeks are the Greeks.

That's why they need a German bailout. Why they are bankrupt. Why they are more corrupt than the Turks and the Romanians and why their railways that lead nowhere and employ no one might have a debt that ...

"Analysts estimate the total to be around $33.6 billion, a sum that would add another 11 percentage points to Greece’s current debt level of about 120 percent of gross domestic product."

Sentence one, paragraph seven of the NYT quoted above,

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/business/global/21rail.html?_r=1

The most sensible way forward is for the euro to devalue to give the Bubbles a chance to sluice their Augean stables but they have to get with the programme.

All their hubristic denial is worth a thimble full of spit.

All this,

" ....the Greeks are pretty free people. Invaded so many times historically they don't care who is in power and they do not hand over money to thieves without making it difficult. It has stood them in good stead for at least two thousand years and they still make wine now the same as they did two thousand years ago ...."

Would be innocuous if their numbers could be trusted.

But since they can't, if they do not make them so, they'll probably slide back to some torturing military dictatorship like they had under their Colonels as recently as the 1970's.

And who wants that?

Edited December 26, 2010 by indirectapproach

[ShedDweller]

I think it's time to face up to it.

The people who have been cheating, swindling and ripping off the Greeks; the people who have been lying, false accounting and committing economic terrorism against the Greeks are the Greeks.

....

And alot of Greeks thought the Bailout would mean a change for the better in Greece but it just appears that the EU is happy to write the cheques and require nothing in return ..

[Big Orange]

Harmonisation and cooperation across Europe are certainly something to aim for, as it is a natural geographic trading block, but the current path is anti-democratic, bereaucratic, authoritarian and driven by ideology rather than the necessary pragmatism.

I would agree that idelogy rather than pragmatism forced through the Euro onto inappropriate applicants, a bold attempt to force continental unity as quickly and visibly as possible, but it was also done with the common concensus of the various nation states and banks across Europe. The "core" EU itself is surprisingly small and needs the concensus of other countries to force things through properly.