BIG FAT SPANISH THREAD

[Venger]

Worthless land could prolong Spanish banks' property woes

Tue Jul 23, 2013

Spanish banks had 97 billion euros worth of exposure to land assets at the end of 2012, according to property consultancy RR de Acuna, roughly half of which were loans to developers. Real estate advisers and banking sources could not quantify how big extra losses would be, in part because that market is so illiquid that pricing projections are hard to make.

While official data shows land prices have fallen 43 percent since their peak in 2007, some real estate experts believe they dropped at least 70 percent.

That would be in line with projections by consultancy Oliver Wyman in a stress test of Spain's banking sector last year, of a 63 percent fall from 2010 to 2014 in an adverse scenario.

In that adverse scenario, banks would suffer 80 percent losses on foreclosed land assets, Oliver Wyman said, more than the 60 percent loss they were asked to provision for last year.

"Though capital requirements and provisions seem to be very high, most of this land does not have and will not have any value over the very long term, and in these cases, coverage may not be enough," said Luis Rodriguez de Acuna, financial director at RR de Acuna.

http://www.reuters.c...E96M07S20130723

[dryrot]

Worthless land could prolong Spanish banks' property woes

"Though capital requirements and provisions seem to be very high, most of this land does not have and will not have any value over the very long term, and in these cases, coverage may not be enough," said Luis Rodriguez de Acuna, financial director at RR de Acuna."

They need a Spanish John Prescott, to spend Euro3Billion destroying the land to increase the remaining land's value.

Possible "Pionero" program perhaps?

[billybong]

http://

globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/spain-levies-consumption-tax-on-sunlight.html

Sounds like they aspire to own the sun now.

[interestrateripoff]

Worthless land could prolong Spanish banks' property woes

Tue Jul 23, 2013

http://www.reuters.c...E96M07S20130723

They need to detach the land and move it to the UK, hey presto banking crisis solved.

[winkie]

They need to detach the land and move it to the UK, hey presto banking crisis solved.

No despatch the international banks and send them to Spain or wherever you want to see high land prices.......

, .

[interestrateripoff]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/29/uk-spain-banks-earnings-idUKBRE96S04X20130729

The dramatic earnings turnaround boasted by four Spanish banks obscures the uphill battle they still face to contain bad debts, grow their businesses and increase shareholder value against the backdrop of one of Europe's most challenging economies.

Bailed-out Bankia(BKIA.MC) last week announced it had swung to a 200 million euros (173 million pounds) profit in the first half of 2013 against a 4.5 billion euros loss a year earlier.

Bankinter(BKT.MC) increased earnings more than four-fold, La Caixa(CABK.MC) more than doubled its profits and Sabadell's (SABE.MC) were up 37 percent.

Perhaps the banks are already returning to their true value and without over inflated property prices increasing shareholder value may be a little difficult?

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-02/spain-suffer-least-25-unemployment-until-2018-imf-forecasts

With the mean-reverting extrapolators all calling the bottom in Europe and scandal-plagued PM Rajoy desperate for distraction repeatedly arguing that the country's depressed economy is finally emerging from a two-tear slump, the FT reports that IMF has just popped that balloon of hope. "Spain has historically never generated net employment when the economy grew less that 1.5-2%,” the IMF notes, pointing out "yet growth is not projected to reach these rates even in the medium-term." In fact, echoing recent warnings from independent economists at exuberance over the most recent data (driven by seasonally-enhanced tourism) as the start of a new trend, the IMF warns, "the weak recovery will constrain employment gains, with unemployment remaining above 25 per cent in 2018." So, for Rajoy, its back to the grift.

A powerful jobless recovery expected.

[spanman]

http://m.thelocal.es//20130807/brussels-backs-10-percent-wage-cuts-for-spain#.UgQSdHJCxxM.gmail

What took so long?

Edit: try to make the link work. Hate this Ipad

Edited August 9, 2013 by spanman

[dances with sheeple]

"Lezcan told Spanish news agency Europa Press that IMF predictions for Spain were in stark contrast to the "triumphalist" pose of a Government which was saying the country was coming out of the recession"

[copydude]

http://m.thelocal.es//20130807/brussels-backs-10-percent-wage-cuts-for-spain#.UgQSdHJCxxM.gmail

What took so long?

Too funny.

An EU spokesperson is now saying that Rehn 'didn't really mean it' about slashing everyone's wages.

Spain wage cut talk 'was misunderstood': EU

It is amazing that the IMF are still talking about Latvia and Ireland being 'success stories'. Mass emigration by the youngest, ablest and most talented is really great for the future of a small country, isn't it? In fact, Latvia is heading for certain demographic meltdown. Its 'recovery', if any, has come about from it now being the number one offshore tax haven for Russians . . . exactly the same thing the EU supposedly trashed Cyprus for. Nothing to do with slashing wages which prompted 10% of the workforce to leave.

And before holding up Latvia (population 1 million) as a success story, for the wrong reasons, it should at least occur to the EU that 10% of the Spanish workforce (population 47million) can't all leave at once.

Is there anyone at the EU with a shred of cred, let alone a clue?

[Trampa501]

"Lezcan told Spanish news agency Europa Press that IMF predictions for Spain were in stark contrast to the "triumphalist" pose of a Government which was saying the country was coming out of the recession"

It's not just the Spanish govt who have noticed the signs of a turnaround in the Spanish economy. People like UBS, BBVA and even the Wall Street Journal are noticing things are improving too. I know this is the thread to search out articles to confirm one's entrenched position, but just for balance:

Is Spain on the brink of an amazing recovery?

Wall Street Journal

The Bank of Spain recently estimated that the Spanish economy contracted by just 0.1% in the second quarter, down from 0.5% in the previous quarter, raising hopes that a return to growth is imminent—perhaps as soon as the current quarter. At the same time, unemployment has started to fall—down by 77,000 in the past four months. House prices and car sales have also stabilized. Exports have surged, up 8% in 2012, matching Germany. The current-account deficit, once 10% of gross domestic product as the country sucked in cheap money to fund the construction boom, has turned to surplus.

[skrillex]

It's not just the Spanish govt who have noticed the signs of a turnaround in the Spanish economy. People like UBS, BBVA and even the Wall Street Journal are noticing things are improving too. I know this is the thread to search out articles to confirm one's entrenched position, but just for balance:

Is Spain on the brink of an amazing recovery?

Wall Street Journal

The Bank of Spain recently estimated that the Spanish economy contracted by just 0.1% in the second quarter, down from 0.5% in the previous quarter, raising hopes that a return to growth is imminent—perhaps as soon as the current quarter. At the same time, unemployment has started to fall—down by 77,000 in the past four months. House prices and car sales have also stabilized. Exports have surged, up 8% in 2012, matching Germany. The current-account deficit, once 10% of gross domestic product as the country sucked in cheap money to fund the construction boom, has turned to surplus.

WSJ is trash.

Unemployment falling could be explained by the continued emigration of young people. Notice how they didn't mention job growth.

The healthy current account surplus could have something to do with this

Spain taps social security reserve fund to pay pensions

Using long term reserves for day to day spending is always a vote winner

[skrillex]

Great apartment building if you like exercise

47-story Spanish skyscraper has no elevator, just like Spain's economy

The Intempo skyscraper in Benidorm, Spain—standing proud in this image—was designed to be a striking symbol of hope and prosperity, to signal to the rest of the world that the city was escaping the financial crisis. Sadly, the builders forgot to include a working elevator.

In fairness, the entire construction process has been plagued with problems, reports Ecnonomia. Initially funded by a bank called Caixa Galicia, the finances were recently taken over by Sareb – Spain’s so-called "bad bank" – when the mortgage was massively written down.

In part, that was a function of the greed surrounding the project. Initially designed to be a mere 20 storeys tall, the developers got over-excited and pushed the height way up: now it boasts 47 storeys, and will include 269 homes.

But that push for more accommodation came at a cost. The original design obviously included specifications for an elevator big enough for a 20-storey building. In the process of scaling things up, however, nobody thought to redesign the elevator system—and, naturally, a 47-storey building requires more space for its lifts and motor equipment. Sadly, that space doesn't exist.

[dances with sheeple]

It's not just the Spanish govt who have noticed the signs of a turnaround in the Spanish economy. People like UBS, BBVA and even the Wall Street Journal are noticing things are improving too. I know this is the thread to search out articles to confirm one's entrenched position, but just for balance:

Is Spain on the brink of an amazing recovery?

Wall Street Journal

"The Bank of Spain recently estimated...." ....Got as far as that and stopped reading

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-14/european-recovery-means-little-for-jobless-generation.html

Francisco Justicia Carrasco has been sending off 50 resumes every Monday for more than three years. He doesn’t expect a job for a long time to come yet.

“The situation is screwed up,” said the 28-year-old who lives in Ripollet, close to Barcelona, and has worked in a range of jobs from shop cashier to packaging over the past decade. “I don’t see any improvement at all from last year or even the year before.”

If he's done that religiously that's 7800 CV's sent off.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-21/spains-real-gdp-could-be-21-lower-reported

With Spanish unemployment surging, tax collection so low, and delinquent loans soaring (though understated due to shifts in the Sareb 'definition's which means an ~11% levels is more like ~14%), it is 'odd', as El Confidencial notes, that GDP has only modestly declined. The fact of the matter is - things do not add up and the following three charts highlight the dramatic divergences between official (government-supplied) data and synthetic (market-based) measures of activity in the construction, industrial, and services industries. Given these 'real' levels, El Confidencial suggests real Spanish GDP would be 21% lower than reported.

Google Translate

Has google translate done a good job here?

[Trampa501]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-21/spains-real-gdp-could-be-21-lower-reported

Google Translate

Has google translate done a good job here?

"With Spanish unemployment surging"

Actually Spanish unemployment has fallen over the last 5 months.

Of course this may be down to the high number of tourists this year, and it's at an unacceptable high level even so...

But to get your first statement totally at odds with the facts, seems to indicate a fairly shoddy work of journalism..

[papag]

Looking at he post waste in Portugal re motorways found this on Spain :angry: Spend, Spend, Spend - fortunes wasted in Spain

The Spanish government and local governments have wasted billions of euros on useless structures over the passed years, so much so that they appear to be more like excuses for cashing in on big commissions.

I have selected just a few of the projects that have wasted millions and millions of euros. Nearly all went over budget and the majority aren't even finished.

Practically all of them lose money costing the tax payer even more just to maintain them. This is just the tip of the iceberg, like these there are dozens and dozens of multi-million euro projects that have gone to waste around the country: bridges that aren't used, new motorways that have no cars on them or aren't finished, even more redundant airports that recieved extensions, overhauls and even new terminals, when in some cases 200 flights were being cancelled every year due to bad weather or the airport received no more than 60,000 passengers, tram lines with no trams, a multiude of hospitals which aren't finished and the list goes on, it is frightening how much money has been wasted and doesn't generate income.

Everyone has heard of at least one or two white elephants, but the truth is, Spain is plagued with them, 10's of billions of euros down the drain and more than likely 10% in a pocket or a brown envelope.

Barcelona Underground - €16,000 million

This line was started ten years ago attempting to be the longest automatic metro line in the world. The line is intended to be 47km long but only 11 stops have been opened so far due to construction problems. This is the most expensive building project in Catalan history.

City of Culture - Santiago de Compostela - €400 Million

€400 million euros were spent on this project that was never finished. Only two of the 6 planned building were ever built and even they were not completely finished.As it stands it has a maintenance cost of €1,6million a year. The famous American architect who built it said " I hadn't realised how big it would actually turn out to be"!!!

The "Mushrooms" - Seville - €123 Million

This huge sum of money went creating shade for a plaza by building the worlds largest wooden structure. It was 4 years over due and went 70% over budget.

Ciudad Real Airport - €1,100 Million

This airport was built 200km south of Madrid. Designed to take 2.5 million passengers a year in its first year it only took 35,000. It is now closed and up for sale for just €100 million less than a tenth of the cost.

Centre of Arts - Alcorcón - €120 Million

This arts centre to date has cost €120 million, it is only 70% finished and 40% over budget already. Building has been stopped and it has been nicknamed "Alcorcon's Circus" as there was going to be a circus included in honour of the Mayor's father who was a clown.

City of Arts and Sciences - Valencia - €1,100 million

With an original budget of €300 million the world famous architect Calatrava managed to almost cuadruple it. The entire complex looses €5,4 million every month.

Ciudad de la Luz - Alicante - €265 million

These international film studios never got of the ground and brings in virtually no income, it costs the government €1,8 million euros every month to keep it open.

Castellon Airport - €150 million

This airport was inaugurated without a license and no contracts for flights but it did have a statue of Carlos Fabra, the President of Castellón which cost €300,000. During the inaugural ceremony he was caught on camara saying to his grandchildren "do you like Grandad's airport?". Not one plane has ever landed. However the airport director earns €84,000 euros a year, more than the president of Spain!

Forum Barcelona 2004 - €2,190 million

This exhibition cost an astronomical amount of money and it is now abandoned and virtually unused.

Huesca Airport - €40 million

You might say thats a bit more reasonable but it only handles 9 passenger a month now and in its best year recieved 5900 passengers.

The Magic Box - Madrid - €300 million

This admittedly very smart multi-use sports centre certainly is magic and made €300 million euros disappear. This centre is used each year for the Madrid Tennis Open and the odd concert. It went €150 million over budget.

Velodrome - Palma de Mallorca - €100 million

A cycling track that has still not been approved by the International Cycling Union and is under investigation for corruption.

Expo Zaragoza - €700 million euros

This exhibition is now abandoned and all buildings have been sitting empty since 2008. There is a similar story with Expo Seville.

AVE train station - Yebes - Guadalajara - €10,5 million

It may not sound like much but Yebes has a population of 300 inhabitants and is just 11km from the capital. This is just one example but these useless stations are peppered all over the country. The Government has spent €45 Billion on high speed train infrastructure around the country, each kilometer cost between 12 and 30 million euros and each kilometer costs between 100,000 and 200,000 euros to maintain each year, which all adds up. Each line would need on average 9 million passengers to make it worth while, Madrid -Barcelona only draws in 5 million a year.

University Hospital of Asturias - €1300 million

Ok, it's a hospital but this new hospital was built to replace the old hospital but this time they made it smaller and surprise surprise they went over budget again...the original budget was €205 million.

Marina de Laredo - Cantabria - €90 million

Naturally there are still no boats or yachts in the marina. Mind you it is not the only one around the country, Valencia's city marina takes the biscuit but was justified becasue of the America's Cup.

The Steel Wood - Cuenca - €8 million (the land was free)

This may not sound like much in comparison but this is what a local council spent on a multi-use structure which they have no idea what they are going to do with it. It is abandoned and there is a competition to see if anyone can come up with a good idea....they hadn't thought of it before buidling it. They just thought it would be nice...

The writer said that " this is the tip of the iceberg !!!

[happy_renting]

Looking at he post waste in Portugal re motorways found this on Spain :angry: Spend, Spend, Spend - fortunes wasted in Spain

The Spanish government and local governments have wasted billions of euros on useless structures over the passed years, so much so that they appear to be more like excuses for cashing in on big commissions.

I have selected just a few of the projects that have wasted millions and millions of euros. Nearly all went over budget and the majority aren't even finished.

Practically all of them lose money costing the tax payer even more just to maintain them. This is just the tip of the iceberg, like these there are dozens and dozens of multi-million euro projects that have gone to waste around the country: bridges that aren't used, new motorways that have no cars on them or aren't finished, even more redundant airports that recieved extensions, overhauls and even new terminals, when in some cases 200 flights were being cancelled every year due to bad weather or the airport received no more than 60,000 passengers, tram lines with no trams, a multiude of hospitals which aren't finished and the list goes on, it is frightening how much money has been wasted and doesn't generate income.

Everyone has heard of at least one or two white elephants, but the truth is, Spain is plagued with them, 10's of billions of euros down the drain and more than likely 10% in a pocket or a brown envelope.

Barcelona Underground - €16,000 million

This line was started ten years ago attempting to be the longest automatic metro line in the world. The line is intended to be 47km long but only 11 stops have been opened so far due to construction problems. This is the most expensive building project in Catalan history.

City of Culture - Santiago de Compostela - €400 Million

€400 million euros were spent on this project that was never finished. Only two of the 6 planned building were ever built and even they were not completely finished.As it stands it has a maintenance cost of €1,6million a year. The famous American architect who built it said " I hadn't realised how big it would actually turn out to be"!!!

The "Mushrooms" - Seville - €123 Million

This huge sum of money went creating shade for a plaza by building the worlds largest wooden structure. It was 4 years over due and went 70% over budget.

Ciudad Real Airport - €1,100 Million

This airport was built 200km south of Madrid. Designed to take 2.5 million passengers a year in its first year it only took 35,000. It is now closed and up for sale for just €100 million less than a tenth of the cost.

Centre of Arts - Alcorcón - €120 Million

This arts centre to date has cost €120 million, it is only 70% finished and 40% over budget already. Building has been stopped and it has been nicknamed "Alcorcon's Circus" as there was going to be a circus included in honour of the Mayor's father who was a clown.

City of Arts and Sciences - Valencia - €1,100 million

With an original budget of €300 million the world famous architect Calatrava managed to almost cuadruple it. The entire complex looses €5,4 million every month.

Ciudad de la Luz - Alicante - €265 million

These international film studios never got of the ground and brings in virtually no income, it costs the government €1,8 million euros every month to keep it open.

Castellon Airport - €150 million

This airport was inaugurated without a license and no contracts for flights but it did have a statue of Carlos Fabra, the President of Castellón which cost €300,000. During the inaugural ceremony he was caught on camara saying to his grandchildren "do you like Grandad's airport?". Not one plane has ever landed. However the airport director earns €84,000 euros a year, more than the president of Spain!

Forum Barcelona 2004 - €2,190 million

This exhibition cost an astronomical amount of money and it is now abandoned and virtually unused.

Huesca Airport - €40 million

You might say thats a bit more reasonable but it only handles 9 passenger a month now and in its best year recieved 5900 passengers.

The Magic Box - Madrid - €300 million

This admittedly very smart multi-use sports centre certainly is magic and made €300 million euros disappear. This centre is used each year for the Madrid Tennis Open and the odd concert. It went €150 million over budget.

Velodrome - Palma de Mallorca - €100 million

A cycling track that has still not been approved by the International Cycling Union and is under investigation for corruption.

Expo Zaragoza - €700 million euros

This exhibition is now abandoned and all buildings have been sitting empty since 2008. There is a similar story with Expo Seville.

AVE train station - Yebes - Guadalajara - €10,5 million

It may not sound like much but Yebes has a population of 300 inhabitants and is just 11km from the capital. This is just one example but these useless stations are peppered all over the country. The Government has spent €45 Billion on high speed train infrastructure around the country, each kilometer cost between 12 and 30 million euros and each kilometer costs between 100,000 and 200,000 euros to maintain each year, which all adds up. Each line would need on average 9 million passengers to make it worth while, Madrid -Barcelona only draws in 5 million a year.

University Hospital of Asturias - €1300 million

Ok, it's a hospital but this new hospital was built to replace the old hospital but this time they made it smaller and surprise surprise they went over budget again...the original budget was €205 million.

Marina de Laredo - Cantabria - €90 million

Naturally there are still no boats or yachts in the marina. Mind you it is not the only one around the country, Valencia's city marina takes the biscuit but was justified becasue of the America's Cup.

The Steel Wood - Cuenca - €8 million (the land was free)

This may not sound like much in comparison but this is what a local council spent on a multi-use structure which they have no idea what they are going to do with it. It is abandoned and there is a competition to see if anyone can come up with a good idea....they hadn't thought of it before buidling it. They just thought it would be nice...

The writer said that " this is the tip of the iceberg !!!

HS2, anyone?

[sf-02]

HS2, anyone?

45 billion euros on their High Speed network seems good value compared to the UK proposal. The Spanish network is vast - the second longest in the world. Thousands of miles - the UK plan is for just over 100 miles and is £33 billion (the other prices quoted are crap particularly the 80 billion from last week plucked from the air).

[interestrateripoff]

45 billion euros on their High Speed network seems good value compared to the UK proposal. The Spanish network is vast - the second longest in the world. Thousands of miles - the UK plan is for just over 100 miles and is £33 billion (the other prices quoted are crap particularly the 80 billion from last week plucked from the air).

Good value even if it doesn't have the passenger numbers?

[winkie]

HS2, anyone?

So you think it is more a lack of money, liquidity, capital, or lack of potential lenders/investors......the party is over when nobody wants to invest in the future without total confidence and security.

If you owe banks countries £1 billion that's your problem. If you owe banks countries £100 billion, that's the bank's countries problem.

[Ash4781]

The Telegraph has mortgage approvals sharply down in June. -42% year on year though struggling to find the original source.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/30/spain-youth-unemployment-record-high

Youth unemployment in Spain has reached a new high of 56.1%, a quarter of the 3.5 million under-25s jobless across the eurozone, according to the latest Eurostat figures.

The number of young Spaniards belonging to what has become known as the lost generation is up 2% since June to 883,000. Only Greece has a higher percentage of young people out of work, at 62.9%.

56.1% an impressive figure.

[copydude]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/30/spain-youth-unemployment-record-high

56.1% an impressive figure.

I am pleased that you keep bumping this, IRRO.

For me, youth unemployment is the most dire and urgent situation facing the EU. But as truly shocking as the figures are, no one wants to talk about it.

So many EU countries have rapidly ageing populations, expecting pensions, with no young working taxpayers to provide for them. The doom scenario is approaching very fast.