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Riots, Fire, Anger At Tuition Fees Protest (,house Prices,)

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/12/riots-fire-anger-defining-political-moment?CMP=twt_gu

...Shiv Malik, co-author of the book Jilted Generation: How Britain Has Bankrupted Its Youth, says the under-thirties feel betrayed – sold out in favour of their parents and grandparents. Fees, he argue, are just one part of the jigsaw. The 29-year-old took to the streets himself on Thursday, and was injured after being hit by a police baton. He argues that most of the protesters were not anarchists or socialists but young people whose instinct to revolt had been awakened for the first time.

...Lucas watched angrily ...At 26, still paying off student debt, unable to get onto the housing ladder, she had thought the Lib Dems offered hope. "I saw them as the party for the young," she said. To her, the vote on fees was a broken promise.

..."There has been a build-up of issues – not just tuition fees but the EMA, youth unemployment, struggling to get onto the housing ladder and bleak prospects for the future – all coming together to spark a wave of protest," says Porter. "The NUS considers this level of youth activism to be unprecedented, perhaps since the 1960s."

...There was even some sympathy in the right-wing press. While condemning the violence, the Daily Mail also commented: "We… worry that graduates will have to start paying this money back at about the time they are buying their first house and starting a family, crippling them financially just as they try to become fully fledged members of society."

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...just as they try to become fully fledged members of society."

Sheer propaganda.

They don't have to own a house (or for that matter start a family) to be "fully fledged members of society"

Edited by billybong

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/12/riots-fire-anger-defining-political-moment?CMP=twt_gu

...Shiv Malik, co-author of the book Jilted Generation: How Britain Has Bankrupted Its Youth, says the under-thirties feel betrayed – sold out in favour of their parents and grandparents. Fees, he argue, are just one part of the jigsaw. The 29-year-old took to the streets himself on Thursday, and was injured after being hit by a police baton. He argues that most of the protesters were not anarchists or socialists but young people whose instinct to revolt had been awakened for the first time.

...Lucas watched angrily ...At 26, still paying off student debt, unable to get onto the housing ladder, she had thought the Lib Dems offered hope. "I saw them as the party for the young," she said. To her, the vote on fees was a broken promise.

..."There has been a build-up of issues – not just tuition fees but the EMA, youth unemployment, struggling to get onto the housing ladder and bleak prospects for the future – all coming together to spark a wave of protest," says Porter. "The NUS considers this level of youth activism to be unprecedented, perhaps since the 1960s."

...There was even some sympathy in the right-wing press. While condemning the violence, the Daily Mail also commented: "We… worry that graduates will have to start paying this money back at about the time they are buying their first house and starting a family, crippling them financially just as they try to become fully fledged members of society."

Sold out eh

Today I was visiting someone who has REALLY been sold out by this country my 80 year old father who never went to uni - spent a lot of his time in his youth dong national service, never had his own home and when I was young worked THREE menial jobs to keep his family together .

My father is in Hospital after a fall and despite having worked and paid taxes all his life was found by my family on Thursday in a hospital bed crying from pain and covered in his own Sh@t ,ignored by nursing staff with a cold meal on a tray he could not reach - thats being sold out mate and there are thousands like him

Oh he's not there now he is in a private ward, not paid for by rich relations and boomers but paid for by my 24 year old plumber nephew who also never went to uni but has managed to build up a business and do well for himself, he used the money he was going to use for expanding his business and doing up his new home, and he also pays top rate tax and has helped the younger generation by taking on two apprentices.

Personally I think my Nephwe should be the face of the younger generation not a group of idiots smahing up property and swinging from national monumnets

Edited by Madamvice

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Sheer propaganda.

They don't have to own a house (or for that matter start a family) to be "fully fledged members of society"

You beat me to it. As a renter I guess I am not a fully fledged member of society. I should be ashamed of myself!

Strangely, I'm not, not at all. :D

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They don't have to own a house (or for that matter start a family) to be "fully fledged members of society"

Actually yes, with the insecure short term tenancies that are common in the UK it is hard to start a family while renting.

If the UK had tenancy laws like Germany then it would be a different matter.

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Sold out eh

Today I was visiting someone who has REALLY been sold out by this country my 80 year old father who never went to uni - spent a lot of his time in his youth dong national service, never had his own home and when I was young worked THREE menial jobs to keep his family together .

My father is in Hospital after a fall and despite having worked and paid taxes all his life was found by my family on Thursday in a hospital bed crying from pain and covered in his own Sh@t ,ignored by nursing staff with a cold meal on a tray he could not reach - thats being sold out mate and there are thousands like him

Oh he's not there now he is in a private ward, not paid for by rich relations and boomers but paid for by my 24 year old plumber nephew who also never went to uni but has managed to build up a business and do well for himself, he used the money he was going to use for expanding his business and doing up his new home, and he also pays top rate tax and has helped the younger generation by taking on two apprentices.

Personally I think my Nephwe should be the face of the younger generation not a group of idiots smahing up property and swinging from national monumnets

That sounds truly horrendous.

What part of the country do live in, if you don't mind me asking?

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Sold out eh

Today I was visiting someone who has REALLY been sold out by this country my 80 year old father who never went to uni - spent a lot of his time in his youth dong national service, never had his own home and when I was young worked THREE menial jobs to keep his family together .

My father is in Hospital after a fall and despite having worked and paid taxes all his life was found by my family on Thursday in a hospital bed crying from pain and covered in his own Sh@t ,ignored by nursing staff with a cold meal on a tray he could not reach - thats being sold out mate and there are thousands like him

Oh he's not there now he is in a private ward, not paid for by rich relations and boomers but paid for by my 24 year old plumber nephew who also never went to uni but has managed to build up a business and do well for himself, he used the money he was going to use for expanding his business and doing up his new home, and he also pays top rate tax and has helped the younger generation by taking on two apprentices.

Personally I think my Nephwe should be the face of the younger generation not a group of idiots smahing up property and swinging from national monumnets

I don't think they're saying nobody else has had it bad, but I don't think you could disagree that the youth of today lack a lot of things we had, such as free education, relatively affordable land and housing, council houses, etc.. As for hospitals, my grandfather was dropped on his head then died from bleeding in the brain. I wasn't impressed. As for your nephew - sure, and I don't think the whole protest thing should be focussed just on Uni but on other educational options - I like the set-up they have in Germany.

Edited by gruffydd

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Probably more like 50k by the time they've covered living costs over the 3 years. Sad thing is the Unis and politicians are blocking debate about 2 year degrees - very do-able, but not being supported because the unis lose a year of income per student.

Just been summoned to round up the sheep up in the Berwyns - farmers here have just had a very worrying weather alert - will be interested to see where this thread gets to by time I'm back tomorrow - btw, watch out for the weather Thurs onwards - EEEEEEEEEEEEK http://www.irishweatheronline.com/2010/12/severe-weather-alert-ireland-and-uk.html WTF IS GOING ON!

Edited by gruffydd

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Probably more like 50k by the time they've covered living costs over the 3 years. Sad thing is the Unis and politicians are blocking debate about 2 year degrees - very do-able, but not being supported because the unis lose a year of income per student.

Just been summoned to round up the sheep up in the Berwyns - farmers here have just had a very worrying weather alert - will be interested to see where this thread gets to by time I'm back tomorrow - btw, watch out for the weather Thurs onwards - EEEEEEEEEEEEK http://www.irishweatheronline.com/2010/12/severe-weather-alert-ireland-and-uk.html

If they want to spend 23k over 3 years that's up to them... Perhaps more will live at home and go local to save money...

(We used to get 2k a year grant to live on back in the late 80s (That's 1980s not 1880s incase you're wondering)

;-)

Oo bad weather - bad ehough to get the sheep in?

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I am baffled as to why politicians think that it is so important for young people to go to university. Unless they are going to learn things there that are directly relevant to their intended careers (such as medicine for doctors, or law for solicitors) then I don't see the point. If universities stuck to just vocationally-based degrees then funding wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't be 50% going but the 5% who really need to.

Another idea, it seems to me that people develop more intellectually as they experience life so sociology, philosophy, literature, art etc. are very good studies to do as an adult. In these cases the system should make it easy for people to combine work with study so that the two compliment each other and the student has a varied experience. (Applies in case of sociology and perhaps languages but not in others - not essential just one potential benefit).

Pressurising the majority of the population into accumulating debts and read books they have no real interest in is crazy IMO and a pitiful waste of resources.

Edited by Reluctant Heretic

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If they want to spend 23k over 3 years that's up to them... Perhaps more will live at home and go local to save money...

(We used to get 2k a year grant to live on back in the late 80s (That's 1980s not 1880s incase you're wondering)

;-)

Oo bad weather - bad ehough to get the sheep in?

Element of panic about weather - not sure where the warnings started from but it looks like it could be horrific from Thurs on. Across N W Europe. Hope not! Hwyl fawr!

Edited by gruffydd

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Probably more like 50k by the time they've covered living costs over the 3 years. Sad thing is the Unis and politicians are blocking debate about 2 year degrees - very do-able, but not being supported because the unis lose a year of income per student.

They might be do-able, but doing them would mean having to solve several problems.

The obvious way of achieving it would be to replace the current semester system with a trimester system, reducing the Christmas and Easter breaks from four weeks to two and slotting in an extra 12-week teaching session from mid-June to mid-September. That would mean that students who currently supplement their income by working over the summer would be unable to do so, with the result that they'd have to borrow more to cover living expenses. Given that the overwhelming majority of students do work during the summers, I can't see the two-year degree significantly reducing the debt level a typical student graduates with: but it will weaken their CVs, as they'll have less work experience on them.

Then there's the problem of where you're going to find the extra teaching and infrastructure capacity to operate universities as teaching facilities all the year round, given that all except the former polytechnics devote their academic staff and facilities to research, EKT (enterprise and knowledge transfer) and other activities during the summer. My contract ringfences 40% of my time for research and divides the rest between teaching, EKT and admin flexibly. Most of that 40% takes place over the summer. With an extra teaching session in the year, either you're going to have to employ more lecturers, or have more teaching work done by TAs, or reduce the amount of research that takes place.

Finally, there is the issue of numbers. By adding an extra teaching session to the academic year, you're potentially increasing the capacity of the HE system by a third, and at a time when the teenage population is declining. You could deal with that by reducing the staff-student ratio proportionately (i.e. admit fewer students to each cohort, but keep the academic staff level the same), but that would increase the cost of delivering the degree by a similar amount. Furthermore, reducing the SSR would not significantly reduce the staffing requirement, especially in research-active universities in which TAs do a lot of the seminars and marking. A lecture takes the same time to prepare and deliver, whether I give it to 18 students or 180. In science and engineering subjects, you've also got the faster depreciation and higher maintenance costs of expensive kit to deal with, given that it'll now be in use for twelve months of the year rather than eight.

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Given that the overwhelming majority of students do work during the summers, I can't see the two-year degree significantly reducing the debt level a typical student graduates with: but it will weaken their CVs, as they'll have less work experience on them.

State your sources.

If students stopped doing "summer jobs" and "part time jobs" then the dolies would have a chance at getting a part time job maybe.

A graduate does not need CV experience of working in a pub to get a job.

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I am baffled as to why politicians think that it is so important for young people to go to university. Unless they are going to learn things there that are directly relevant to their intended careers (such as medicine for doctors, or law for solicitors) then I don't see the point. If universities stuck to just vocationally-based degrees then funding wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't be 50% going but the 5% who really need to.

Another idea, it seems to me that people develop more intellectually as they experience life so sociology, philosophy, literature, art etc. are very good studies to do as an adult. In these cases the system should make it easy for people to combine work with study so that the two compliment each other and the student has a varied experience.

Pressurising the majority of the population into accumulating debts and read books they have no real interest in is crazy IMO and a pitiful waste of resources.

Tax? The beief in all the historical stats that they will earn more than other tax fodder - so provide more money for politicians to play with - of course this fails horribly if there nare no industries left or even service sector jobs for those newly degree enabled employees to work in.

Control? - get them in deb. Indoctrination - more years under govt based "education" so the think the right way.

Edited by OnlyMe

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Sold out eh

Today I was visiting someone who has REALLY been sold out by this country my 80 year old father who never went to uni - spent a lot of his time in his youth dong national service, never had his own home and when I was young worked THREE menial jobs to keep his family together .

My father is in Hospital after a fall and despite having worked and paid taxes all his life was found by my family on Thursday in a hospital bed crying from pain and covered in his own Sh@t ,ignored by nursing staff with a cold meal on a tray he could not reach - thats being sold out mate and there are thousands like him

Oh he's not there now he is in a private ward, not paid for by rich relations and boomers but paid for by my 24 year old plumber nephew who also never went to uni but has managed to build up a business and do well for himself, he used the money he was going to use for expanding his business and doing up his new home, and he also pays top rate tax and has helped the younger generation by taking on two apprentices.

Personally I think my Nephwe should be the face of the younger generation not a group of idiots smahing up property and swinging from national monumnets

But both have been sold out the youth of today and the older people . The worst thing about it is that if it was not for incompetent govenment and public sector managers both could have a better result .

I could write a book about the sh-t treatment my mother had at the hands of the NHS , and she was in hospitals full of old people who got the same. My family nursed her and fed her back to health so many times . I watched with horror at the treatment of old people who did not have family to look after them. It could all be so different as all that was needed was more staff and if the NHS did not waste so much money on box ticking and over paid managment they could have the staff and the disscracefull treatment that happens to our old would be stopped . It is so easy to fix but the twatts in charge don't do it.

As for the young there are very few jobs , they have very little to look forward to. Whether they buy or rent a home and it is very expensive to rent in the private sector they do not have the means to grow up and stand on their own two feet like the previous generations. Again there is no need for this , we have the land , the skills , the materials we could build homes and make putting the roof over heads so much cheaper but they powers that be do not want to know and have not wanted to know for years on end.

As for the fees to go to uni , another rip off and what choice do many have ( there are no jobs ) and very basic jobs that I could get when i left school at 16 are now asking for a degree. The young are damed if they do and damed if they don't.

Things need to change for the good of most people in this country but the top guys just want to keep the status quo and cream off everything for themselves. The students are saying no.

If things do not change soon there will be more riots about more issues it is the govenments job to sort the country and give a future to all, if they can not do it or do not want to do it then they should stand down . They asked for the job , now p-ss or get off the pot.

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Tax? The beief in all the historical stats that they will earn more than other tax fodder - so provide more money for politicians to play with - of course this fails horribly if there nare no industries left or even service sector jobs for those newly degree enabled employees to work in.

Control? - get them in deb. Indoctrination - more years under govt based "education" so the think the right way.

Good point - I am sick of hearing politicians speak nonsense and keep repeating it in an effort to brainwash us. Oh for a leader and/or a party who just spoke plain commonsense instead of endless party-line propaganda.

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State your sources.

Nine years of full-time university teaching, hearing first hand from students for whom working is a necessity in order to avoid their debts from heading out of control.

If students stopped doing "summer jobs" and "part time jobs" then the dolies would have a chance at getting a part time job maybe.

A graduate does not need CV experience of working in a pub to get a job.

All the experience suggests that it helps. Given all the anti-student, anti-HE prejudice that issues forth from this forum on a regular basis, I'd have thought that experience of working in what is sometimes termed 'the real world' is something that the contributors here would be welcoming among the graduate population. Many blue chip employers now regard a track record of paid work as a minimum eligibility criterion for applying, as well as a 2:1 or a first from a decent university. Remove the opportunity for students to gain that experience while studying, and yet more of them will become unemployable and end up on the dole (and thus never pay their student loans back) while the employers they'd otherwise have gone to work for import better qualified foreigners.

And incidentally, we may think that a three-year UG degree is long - in many European countries and the US, 4-6 years is the norm. Most US universities don't in fact operate a rigid level=year system, but rather they simply require you to build up enough credits at a given level - however long it takes you - before moving to the next one. Students taking the best part of a decade to complete their undergraduate degrees are not uncommon.

Edited by The Ayatollah Buggeri

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I am baffled as to why politicians think that it is so important for young people to go to university.

I don't think that's the issue. The immediate issue is that a large number of young people see this (unelected) government as having trashed their futures. Our young people are being punished by this government for the stupidity of the last one. The people need to rise up and tell Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne and Cable: "Oh-ho no, you don't do that! We will not pay for politicians' folly. If you try to make us, you'll have a fight on your hands."

Anyway, the coalition will be gone soon, it's unsustainable as there will be no Lib Dem party left soon, and Ed Miliband's new government will have the job of sorting out the mess left by his errant Labour predecessor.

Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack

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That sounds truly horrendous.

What part of the country do live in, if you don't mind me asking?

I am on the Isle of Wight but my family live in West London

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I don't think that's the issue. The immediate issue is that a large number of young people see this (unelected) government as having trashed their futures. Our young people are being punished by this government for the stupidity of the last one. The people need to rise up and tell Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne and Cable: "Oh-ho no, you don't do that! We will not pay for politicians' folly. If you try to make us, you'll have a fight on your hands."

Anyway, the coalition will be gone soon, it's unsustainable as there will be no Lib Dem party left soon, and Ed Miliband's new government will have the job of sorting out the mess left by his errant Labour predecessor.

For ages I have been saying on this forum that I could not understand why students/young people weren't rioting - I saw the anger demonstrated last week as completely inkeeping with the degree of injustice being meted out. I don't think that those who don't go to university should subsidise those who do, its just that the whole situation has been precipitated by greed and incompetence. The innocent are being punished and the Fred Goodwins of this world get handsomely rewarded.

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I don't think that's the issue. The immediate issue is that a large number of young people see this (unelected) government as having trashed their futures. Our young people are being punished by this government for the stupidity of the last one. The people need to rise up and tell Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne and Cable: "Oh-ho no, you don't do that! We will not pay for politicians' folly. If you try to make us, you'll have a fight on your hands."

Anyway, the coalition will be gone soon, it's unsustainable as there will be no Lib Dem party left soon, and Ed Miliband's new government will have the job of sorting out the mess left by his errant Labour predecessor.

i think thats quite likely, these students and the young are the first group to realise they are fcked and the country is on its way back to the relative poverty levels of the pre ponzi banking/debt bubble that started in the 80s, they will soon be joined in the protests by a portion of the welfare state and public sector who are likely to be the next to realise, then as red Ed comes in with a proper Labour manifesto whatever minimal capital in the uk that is left will do a runner and the middle class and pensioners will then realise they are fcked as well and the uk can take its rightful place of being back in the 70s without North Sea oil and ponzi finance to set it on a path to quick unearned wealth/debt, by then currency levels should have adjusted enough so that cheap tat from China is no longer cheap and the UK can start manufacturing again so you wont need to target 80% of students going to uni to keep them off the dole, get the flat screens in whilst you can, no doubt theyll be 6 months wages again soon enough

Edited by Tamara De Lempicka

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Actually yes, with the insecure short term tenancies that are common in the UK it is hard to start a family while renting.

If the UK had tenancy laws like Germany then it would be a different matter.

Very well put.

Unsecured UK tenancies make UK tenants insecure.

.

Edited by Tired of Waiting

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Nine years of full-time university teaching, hearing first hand from students for whom working is a necessity in order to avoid their debts from heading out of control.

. Most US universities don't in fact operate a rigid level=year system, but rather they simply require you to build up enough credits at a given level - however long it takes you - before moving to the next one. Students taking the best part of a decade to complete their undergraduate degrees are not uncommon.

So nothing statistical... just heresay. OK. I'll believe you but I'd prefer cold hard stats.

I do believe we should make kids reach a set standard before they leave primary school.

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I have now posted the following comments, or variations of the comment below, under more than ten articles in the Guardian, and every single one has been censored.

My comments are as relevant as most of the other comments, yet the Guardian Mods seemingly prefer to allow vitriolic bile and hatred of the coalition comments to be posted. Rather than any insight. Under ANY and EVERY article discussing The debt that Students are facing.

So, can we conclude, after censoring my perfectly acceptable 'on-topic' comment at least ten to fifteen times, that the Guardian Newspaper, are 'Grooming' the angry students, and like a stage magician, [well practised at hiding the truth,] they are calling the students attention to focus on a particular point, stirring hatred, and hoping they become the next generation to be suckered by the lies and spin of the Labour Party?

The Guardian, [like the Labour Party] basically want the students to focus unerringly on hatred of the coalition, and not consider other relevant points.

The intolerant Guardian Mods, [Pretend socialists with their own little online fiefdom] obviously only believe in Freedom Of Speech and expression under their articles, when it suits their own twisted purposes.

Much the Same as Labour.

Makes you wonder how many of the Guardian Mods are members of the Labour Party.

It bothers me that the Labour Party have the leadership of the NUS in their pockets, and Labour are manipulating the students by blaming the rise in tuition fees, on the coalition.

Labour are stirring hatred among students.

Since my Generation left University, we have been priced out of housing.

I wish the students would realise that a house is the biggest investment you make in your lifetime, and Labour have manipulated house prices to rise to astronomical levels, and then transfered that debt onto those people not yet on the ladder.

In effect, Labour policies have cost us tens upon tens of thousands of pounds, forced to pay rent, as house prices have risen further and further out of our reach, year after year, as well as the SIX FIGURE House Price Increases

We are now having our money stolen, to pay for this toxic mortgage debt, in effect paying for others houses. And Keeping house prices massively overinflated.

[Try working for nothing for a decade. No capital, to get a real taste of anger.]

It makes the students tuition fee debt look like small potatoes. Yet Labour have done it to their generation as well!

The students dont seem to get this. Or maybe its just that you don't think about tomorrow when you are that young?

Are the dispossessed Students going to be suckered by the Labour Party, and become the Labour Voters of tomorrow?

The coalition have been useless from day one, in describing the reasons why Labour are to blame for this mess.

Bring house prices back down, tax BTL, raise IR, and let the students know how much money you have saved them.

Edited by Dan1

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  • 295 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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