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tomandlu

Riots

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IMHO revolution - or, hopefully, just an awareness that revolution will be the inevitable outcome unless very serious reforms are made - is the only way to 'fix' the current problems.

AFAICT the rich are doing their damnedest to ensure that they carry on getting richer, even though the other side of that equation in a failing economic model is that the rest of us get even poorer even quicker.

It's stupid and short-sighted and dangerous, but it doesn't look like anything but fear is going to work.

I'm not sure how many of the students involved in the riots so far have figured that out, but then I'm not sure a revolution requires 'intelligence' - just a vague awareness of a wrong not being addressed.

Basically, viva la riots. Scare the elite - they deserve and need it.

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IMHO revolution - or, hopefully, just an awareness that revolution will be the inevitable outcome unless very serious reforms are made - is the only way to 'fix' the current problems.

AFAICT the rich are doing their damnedest to ensure that they carry on getting richer, even though the other side of that equation in a failing economic model is that the rest of us get even poorer even quicker.

It's stupid and short-sighted and dangerous, but it doesn't look like anything but fear is going to work.

I'm not sure how many of the students involved in the riots so far have figured that out, but then I'm not sure a revolution requires 'intelligence' - just a vague awareness of a wrong not being addressed.

Basically, viva la riots. Scare the elite - they deserve and need it.

article-1337088-0C6BDA6D000005DC-479_634x416.jpg

"Let them eat Dutchy Originals"

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IMHO revolution - or, hopefully, just an awareness that revolution will be the inevitable outcome unless very serious reforms are made - is the only way to 'fix' the current problems.

AFAICT the rich are doing their damnedest to ensure that they carry on getting richer, even though the other side of that equation in a failing economic model is that the rest of us get even poorer even quicker.

It's stupid and short-sighted and dangerous, but it doesn't look like anything but fear is going to work.

I'm not sure how many of the students involved in the riots so far have figured that out, but then I'm not sure a revolution requires 'intelligence' - just a vague awareness of a wrong not being addressed.

Basically, viva la riots. Scare the elite - they deserve and need it.

I agree, but we'll need to multiply the protesters by milions first & that will never happen as long as x factor is on & theres food in the fridge

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No, just a load of kids kicking off. Apart from the BBC nobody is really interested.

People have real things to think about now and couldn't care less about kids who think they have a right to fully funded Media Studies courses.

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Its all the BBC can talk about..half a dozen yobs attack a car and run off.. a few more knock down a temporary fence...tehn show videos of smashed Tory headquarters....gives the impression it was like downtown Chicago on St Valentines day...

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I agree, but we'll need to multiply the protesters by milions first & that will never happen as long as x factor is on & theres food in the fridge

Well, I'm not that cynical, but even if I was, the way things are going, the elite won't even leave that for the masses. Their greed seems to be insatiable and immune to any restraint. They're like the living dead or something. They'll try and consume everything until there's nothing left and then turn on each other.

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Q1 are they armed with guns and explosives?

No? Then it won't work.

Q2 are they ready to stand and be gunned down?

No? Then it won't work.

Unless either of the above conditions are met nothing will change. Back in 1989 lots of Chinese people stood and were gunned down. Around wangfujin soldiers would advance and gun down the crowd. The crowd would run away but reform and again throw rocks, the soldiers would advance and gun them down again and again and again.

On the negative side there was a sea of blood..... however this scared the CCP into playing bread and circuses and accelerating the pace of change started in 1981 so that their power base was not threatened.

Similar things have happened in HK with the 1966, 67 79 and 81 riots. In 1966 the police thought they had won. After all the rioteers had been crushed and had been found to all have suicided a few days after. One year later the people erupted into violence again but this time they were prepared and bought along home made grenades. They even managed to execute a couple of cops. Cops responded by extrajudicial executions. This threatend their powerbase and sometime later the ICAC was cleaned up and corruption was reduced significantly.

Without the above two conditions or both conditions NOTHING will change.

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No, just a load of kids kicking off. Apart from the BBC nobody is really interested.

People have real things to think about now and couldn't care less about kids who think they have a right to fully funded Media Studies courses.

Precisely!

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Well, I'm not that cynical, but even if I was, the way things are going, the elite won't even leave that for the masses. Their greed seems to be insatiable and immune to any restraint. They're like the living dead or something. They'll try and consume everything until there's nothing left and then turn on each other.

+1

Since the 1970s, worker productivity is up perhaps 70%, yet real wages have flat-lined. Pretty much the entire proceeds of economic growth go to the already very-well-off, who at the same time are reducing their tax 'burden', hence leading to the impoverishment of the public sphere. Tuition fees are just a part of this. Rest assured that the NHS is next.

And there is no democratic way to stop it, given the consensus of all the major parties.

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Q1 are they armed with guns and explosives?

No? Then it won't work.

Q2 are they ready to stand and be gunned down?

No? Then it won't work.

Unless either of the above conditions are met nothing will change. Back in 1989 lots of Chinese people stood and were gunned down. Around wangfujin soldiers would advance and gun down the crowd. The crowd would run away but reform and again throw rocks, the soldiers would advance and gun them down again and again and again.

On the negative side there was a sea of blood..... however this scared the CCP into playing bread and circuses and accelerating the pace of change started in 1981 so that their power base was not threatened.

Similar things have happened in HK with the 1966, 67 79 and 81 riots. In 1966 the police thought they had won. After all the rioteers had been crushed and had been found to all have suicided a few days after. One year later the people erupted into violence again but this time they were prepared and bought along home made grenades. They even managed to execute a couple of cops. Cops responded by extrajudicial executions. This threatend their powerbase and sometime later the ICAC was cleaned up and corruption was reduced significantly.

Without the above two conditions or both conditions NOTHING will change.

And yet the students in Spain helped bring Franco down by drinking tea and using the loo, together. Figure it out. You don't need to confront the authorities in a mob, they have the guns.

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What needs to happen is a mass march – it’s been the students this week, we’ll have the public workers soon, others to follow later.

Whereas if the cuts/taxes were passed all at once there would be (tens of) millions to deal with, which would be carnage.

And I do advocate violence as it’s only way to get a message through. They laugh at peaceful protest behind bulletproof reflective windows.

Injin had it – they threaten violence, so return it, only with vastly greater numbers (though not weapons!).

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Nonsense. History has shown this many times.

It's just idle, armchair revoloutinary rhetoric.

Nope I'm more cynical than you... when a 'peaceful' revolution occurs it is usually a complete sham. For instance Taiwan, pre and post election the KMT was still the dominent power. Russia is a democracy but again the FSB still controls everything. Same with S Korea, the president Lee Myung Bak is a stooge for Hyundai the next president will be a stooge for Hyundai/LG or Samsung. So what changes... NOTHING! The old men in charge are still in charge as puppet masters of the new elected representitives. Thus unless you purge the government with fire and bullets and start afresh the old men are still there. Sure the old new men will become just as corrupt after a spell, but at least you start afresh and have a small grace period before they become corrupt.

It also serves as a severe warning to the future corrupt. This may happen to you if you are bad.... while what happened to our corrupt leaders? They get massive pension pots and nothing happens to them.

OTOH if somebody went into the HoC with a flamethrower......

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I found it exceedingly amusing that Charles and Camilla were caught up in the disturbances yesterday.

They exist in a bubble of good manners and forced politeness, isolated from the reality we all face on a daily basis.

Just for a few minutes they caught a glimpse of what goes on in the real world, felt the fear of the unknown the rest of us have to deal with...

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IMHO revolution - or, hopefully, just an awareness that revolution will be the inevitable outcome unless very serious reforms are made - is the only way to 'fix' the current problems.

I completely agree. This is about much more than tuition fees. For two generations the country has indulged in unsustainable policies. Just a few to mention:

*Selling off council houses and not replacing them

*Selling off public companies at a discount

*Not tackling the pensions black hole

*PFI

*Environmental pollution

and, of course,

*The assumed 'right' to rapidly rising property prices.

We always knew these were unsustainable policies but we thought we could enjoy the benefits of waste and profligacy and leave future generations to sort out the mess. The reality is that the recession has made this final day of reckoning a reality and, guess what, the kids don't want to pay OUR debts. They don't want to start their working lives £40k in the red and I can't say I blame them.

I genuinely believe that young people today (under 25s) have a very different mindset to people only a few years older. They grew up with the interconnected, collaborative culture of the Internet. They grew up with the relentless message that everyone is collectively responsible for the environment. This is totally at odds with the self-indulgence of the Boomers or the apathy of Generation X. At the same time, older generations have made the traditional life path of education > job > marriage > home > family virtually unattainable for today's youth - even before you saddle them with tens of thousands of debt. What we are witnessing is a complete sea change in society. The inter-generational showdown has finally arrived. I'm Generation X but I'm siding with the kids because I believe we have no choice but to create a more sustainable way of life - economically, socially and environmentally.

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I found it exceedingly amusing that Charles and Camilla were caught up in the disturbances yesterday.

They exist in a bubble of good manners and forced politeness, isolated from the reality we all face on a daily basis.

Just for a few minutes they caught a glimpse of what goes on in the real world, felt the fear of the unknown the rest of us have to deal with...

It wouldn't be allowed in his 'Model Village'..

I hate the whole royalty-worship thing with a passion.

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Revolution is a scary thing. If it fails the authorities stamp down with a fist of iron, if it succeeds the former revolutionaries are usually rather too keen on bloodthirsty revenge towards anyone they see as part of what they were revolting against. Exceptions have been few and far between (the USA being one of the least bad, although IMO the entire population should be hanged for treason :) ).

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article-1337088-0C6BDA6D000005DC-479_634x416.jpg

"Let them eat Dutchy Originals"

That picture sums up the situation rather nicely.

Rich Royal landowners in evening suits on their way to the West End peering out through the window of their Rolls Royce as they drive through the rioting proles who are being forced into a life of debt servitude to ensure the value of their land and other assets doesn't plummet.

Looks about 100 years too late.

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I completely agree. This is about much more than tuition fees. For two generations the country has indulged in unsustainable policies. Just a few to mention:

*Selling off council houses and not replacing them

*Selling off public companies at a discount

*Not tackling the pensions black hole

*PFI

*Environmental pollution

and, of course,

*The assumed 'right' to rapidly rising property prices.

We always knew these were unsustainable policies but we thought we could enjoy the benefits of waste and profligacy and leave future generations to sort out the mess. The reality is that the recession has made this final day of reckoning a reality and, guess what, the kids don't want to pay OUR debts. They don't want to start their working lives £40k in the red and I can't say I blame them.

I genuinely believe that young people today (under 25s) have a very different mindset to people only a few years older. They grew up with the interconnected, collaborative culture of the Internet. They grew up with the relentless message that everyone is collectively responsible for the environment. This is totally at odds with the self-indulgence of the Boomers or the apathy of Generation X. At the same time, older generations have made the traditional life path of education > job > marriage > home > family virtually unattainable for today's youth - even before you saddle them with tens of thousands of debt. What we are witnessing is a complete sea change in society. The inter-generational showdown has finally arrived. I'm Generation X but I'm siding with the kids because I believe we have no choice but to create a more sustainable way of life - economically, socially and environmentally.

Indeed. I almost wish I were 15 years younger :ph34r:

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We need change and it looks like the coalishion aren't doing it. No plans to eliminate the deficit let alone reduce the debt (I had high hopes). We need a massive change, a complete turn around of thinking and the rich will need to loosen their grip and allow some of what they have to slip through their fingers.

The rest of us will also need to be less greedy and selfish and accept a lower standard of living, what ever that means, less bling I guess.

People need to be able to afford a house without a lifetime of slavery and save up for a car.

We need to move away from this relentless need for a growing economy and aim for a quality economy. Immigration needs to stop so we can atleast move around a bit and employ the people already here.

We need people to take responsibilty for themselves and a better community spirit and if a teenager seriously misbehaves we need to be able to smack the little git without fear of prosecution. (They know they are untouchable which make them fearless)

Expect more rioting from the tax takers, maybe when the tax payers riot could be the start of something.

Oh, and why isn't Charles and his pet not wearing a seatbelt.

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Oh, and why isn't Charles and his pet not wearing a seatbelt.

Like Diana, they're simply far too important to wear seatbelts.

What could possibly go wrong? Not like they might have speed away from a riot or anything.

Just as the Bourbons, they learn nothing and forget nothing.

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Revolution is a scary thing. If it fails the authorities stamp down with a fist of iron, if it succeeds the former revolutionaries are usually rather too keen on bloodthirsty revenge towards anyone they see as part of what they were revolting against. Exceptions have been few and far between (the USA being one of the least bad, although IMO the entire population should be hanged for treason :) ).

In Britain we did very well from the 1780s on by everyone else having revolutions. They took the huge economic hits and general destruction, our ruling powers took the hint, more or less.

The paradox is that it is hugely to the benefit of the rulers to pay their share - even if that share appears huge on a personal level - for the sake of a stable society with low income inequality, because it means they get to stay being rulers, and the huge class of consumers is good for business in general. If the top echelons decide to club together and use their power to pay less towards society, the result is a less politically stable society, lower growth and hence the need to be even more rapacious.

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OTOH if somebody went into the HoC with a flamethrower......

..they would be overpowered charged with arson and attempted murder ...and put away for may years ....and become a marked somebody.... :rolleyes:

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IMHO revolution - or, hopefully, just an awareness that revolution will be the inevitable outcome unless very serious reforms are made - is the only way to 'fix' the current problems.

AFAICT the rich are doing their damnedest to ensure that they carry on getting richer, even though the other side of that equation in a failing economic model is that the rest of us get even poorer even quicker.

It's stupid and short-sighted and dangerous, but it doesn't look like anything but fear is going to work.

I'm not sure how many of the students involved in the riots so far have figured that out, but then I'm not sure a revolution requires 'intelligence' - just a vague awareness of a wrong not being addressed.

Basically, viva la riots. Scare the elite - they deserve and need it.

...OK your name is Wolfie Smith and you live in Tooting .... :rolleyes:

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In Britain we did very well from the 1780s on by everyone else having revolutions. They took the huge economic hits and general destruction, our ruling powers took the hint, more or less.

The paradox is that it is hugely to the benefit of the rulers to pay their share - even if that share appears huge on a personal level - for the sake of a stable society with low income inequality, because it means they get to stay being rulers, and the huge class of consumers is good for business in general. If the top echelons decide to club together and use their power to pay less towards society, the result is a less politically stable society, lower growth and hence the need to be even more rapacious.

....who are the top echelons...?....in a democracy we are all equal ....did Alan Sugar or Richard Branson go to University ...?....and I don't envy their wealth ....they worked for it .... :rolleyes:

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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