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Lib Dems Are Now Dead Limbs

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I think this was a defining moment.

Everyone knows how unfair the whole student loan business is.

It's not only anti education for the populace.

The rates are just mindbending . . . the most loan shark of any. Above inflation rates. Above any forseeable earning power in these times.

Students and liberal thinkers were the Dead LImbs core vote. Well, they won't be voting Dead Limbs anytime soon.

It's the 9th of December, 2010. I think this is the day that the Lib Dems blew it big time and will never ever recover.

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As I'm basically 'some sort of liberal', albeit pretty removed from any so-called liberalism espoused by the mainstream parties, I've sometimes voted LibDem as a lesser of three evils option, much against my better judgment.

Never again. Clegg and Cable have joined the same despised political class as all the rest.

The argument that the monthly payment will be lower to begin with is no different to a cheesy salesman loading up a family with stuff they can't really afford on the never never. As students approach mean average incomes they'll be forking out over a hundred quid a month just when they may want to buy a home or start a family. And, of course, like most graduates these days even if they do hit average incomes it may be years after they graduated and the degree played no part in their career. They are then effectively being 'fined' for their education.

The whole thing stinks.

I hope Lib Dems implode.

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University should be for the very brightest, ambitious and talented students, not for the mediocre who see it as their right to waste 3 years of time and money drinking, smoking dope and going clubbing. If you want to go to an ex-polytechnic masquerading as a university to do film studies then you should pay for it as I don't want to. Or maybe if you work your **** off and get a 2:1 or higher in a useful subject, you get a 90% discount. University is not for everyone and many students would be better off learning a trade.

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You can believe all students are druggies if you want . Depends what kind of bigot you are and whether stereotype generalisations are your thing. Bigotry at this time isn't very helpful. Education is either important or not.

It still doesn't mean you have to drive students en masse into penury.

Here's the extraordinary nature of the loans system being proposed.

Students will be charged at 3 per cent plus inflation for a very long period of time. This is sheer profiteering disguised as fairness. Essentially, the government will be requiring individuals to issue 30-year index-linked bonds on their own balance sheets. A few sums shows what this might mean.

Government will raise the money to advance the loans on a flat rate basis. It will borrow the money at about 2.5 per cent, and lend it out at 6.1 per cent, more if inflation increases. While it will enjoy the benefit of seeing its real debt eroded by inflation, the student will not be permitted the same escape route.

If only half the total number of students take out a loan of £7000 every year, then that would amount to a transfer from the state’s balance sheet to those of individuals which stabilises over 30 years at about £110 billion. The government would pay a peak £2.75 billion a year in interest for this, and receive peak income of £6.75 billion back.

Even Barclaycard would applaud such audacity.

This is the end of the Lib Dems. Totally, end of story, There's not a student or education minded person who will vote for them again, ever.

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You can believe all students are druggies if you want . Depends what kind of bigot you are and whether stereotype generalisations are your thing. Bigotry at this time isn't very helpful. Education is either important or not.

It still doesn't mean you have to drive students en masse into penury.

This is the end of the Lib Dems. Totally, end of story, There's not a student or education minded person who will vote for them again, ever.

Who said all students are druggies? Who is being a bigot? Of course education is important and I strongly agree that free education is available up to 18, or adulthood. I went to a red brick university in the 90s and from my experience there was a large percentage of students who were there for the craic, me included, and it is a great time of life. But in this current economic climate with 250k more students than back then it isn't right for Joe Taxpayer to subsidise Uni unless the students achieve academic excellence. My boss didn't go to university and he earns 3 x more than me. How many students really apply their degree to their careers?

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I've always voted Lib Dem - not any more - I'd vote Labour now - as a protest vote. I could warm to Labour if they pursued a genuine socialist policy, but before the last election the Lib Dems were the most socialist of the three main parties - now they're just Tory glove puppets.

The Lib Dems will soon find they're dead in the water. Nick Clegg will preside over the a much diminished party. Nobody has spoken of defections yet, but I could see quite a few Lib Dems crossing the floor and joining Labour, or forming a separate Lib Dem grouping that is not part of the coalition.

The collapse of the Lib Dems will lead soon to the collapse of the coalition. That will lead to a general election. A lot more Lib Dem voters will turn to Labour than to Tory. On the other hand, in many Lib Dem strongholds where the Tories are second, Labour are a very poor third. But I would expect Labour to win if there was an election now.

PS I was Blankster but I got fed up with having a silly name.

Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack

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You are right that far fewer people need to go to university.

Across several workplaces I've noticed scores of graduates in low paid roles, working alongside people who never went to university. Unless you're on some milkround fast track scheme you are not rated even the slightest bit higher than a non-graduate. A some of these graduates had 2:1s in traditional arts and humanities subjects from pretty prestigious Unis I'm sure that there are serious roles for only a tiny fraction of graduates. Indeed, only around 1 IN 40 get a milkround job - most just enter the labour market as little more than a school leaver.

Many courses are not fit for purpose and would be better replaced by briefer, shorter courses at FE colleges. For example, someone I knew had a degree in Photography but realised that they had little that could be applied to commercial photography, no contacts or industry links, no foot in the door. After taking a short private course in studio flash and finally landing a few low paid assisting roles they realised that in a matter of weeks they'd learned far more real world knowledge than through 3 years of 'study'.

I think in the past University was merely a way to cement the middle class's status in society. With a declining middle class and a McJob economy where most employment is low skill and low paid, the expansion of higher education fueled by student debt is the cruelest of jokes.

Edited by CrashedOutAndBurned

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I think the basic problem is that secondary education has been dumbed down to such an extent that gcse's and a-levels are becoming almost worthless.

University now seems to do the job that a-levels did 25 years ago and to get a relevant graduate level job you almost need a masters.

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I still think the coalition will last 4 more years, with no votes being more contentious than this one. 4 years is a long time, and voters have very short memories.

I love that the very same people singing the praises of european style coalition governments are the people whining now we have one.

Oh and i put up with a government i hated for 13 years without smashing anything. Opposition sucks, eh?

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Interesting to ponder what if...

I wonder what if the deeply unpopular Mr Brown remained PM, instigated the 9/10ths of the conservative cuts he said he would and a liebour libdem coalition was formed.

I think its fair to say Cameron would be gone, not sure what else would be different though.

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I love that the very same people singing the praises of european style coalition governments are the people whining now we have one.

There is nothing Euro style about this coalition. Basically because we do not have Euro style PR.

In Europe, the parties have to negotiate and compromise, because there will always be a balance to power.

Here, the Tories are acting as if they are an elected majority and the Dead Limbs are rolling over on every issue as if it is their last chance ever.

As you know, countries like Holland and Belgium can go without governments for months because people are not prepared to abandon their principles and tear up their manifestos as quickly as Clegg and Co.

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I think this is a good example of an issue that everyone 'ought' to have an opinion on - for me at least I'm not sure,I just don't know about tuition fees. It's extremely sad to see people loaded with so much hate and anger - the argument is essentially about money and in turn a fear of not having 'enough' or being "deprived" of a status or a significant role in society. We've clearly come to a point where the state can't keep paying for everyone's university education and it's not required of me to explain the reasons why the state is so overly burdened - many of us in some way are responsible for house price ramping,leverage etc - some much more than others I agree.

Personally I earn very little but I'm happy,I have no desire for status - I self educate and like to think I contribute to society in my own way. I have paid a lot in taxes over many years and don't begrudge supporting the weaker and less advantaged. I take care of my self and don't demand or expect the state to provide that which I can provide myself so to that end I do feel slightly uneasy at the sight of mobs suggesting that once they've gained their well paid jobs they'd still expect me to pay for their education.

Edited by Ill_handle_it

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There is nothing Euro style about this coalition. Basically because we do not have Euro style PR.

In Europe, the parties have to negotiate and compromise, because there will always be a balance to power.

Here, the Tories are acting as if they are an elected majority and the Dead Limbs are rolling over on every issue as if it is their last chance ever.

As you know, countries like Holland and Belgium can go without governments for months because people are not prepared to abandon their principles and tear up their manifestos as quickly as Clegg and Co.

What is Euro style PR though?

We are led to believe we have PR in the Euro elections, but then i find out a Belgian vote carries ten times the weighting of a British vote.

It might be PR, but the proportions are all wrong. B)

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Will all the lefties who are moaning about University fees and how they are unfair please explain how we can afford to offer free University education to the huge numbers that now want to go there?

Even if you come up with a NI or PAYE dodge etc, should we be spending public tax pounds on what is not necessary for the country.

We need Fred Dibnah types. We do not need all these graduates.

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We need Fred Dibnah types.
There aren't many chimneys left to demolish and those that remain are probably listed structures. There's not much call for the services of steam rollers of steam traction engines these days, either!

Staying with the steam analogy, what we need is more Isambard Kingdom Brunel types, or more Nigel Gresley types!

We need more scientists, medical researchers etc. - and fewer management and media graduates and even fewer classics or history of art graduates.

I heard a radio programme about how in Ireland some people are seeing agriculture as their way out of the economic crisis, since Ireland can produce many times more food products than are needed for its 4 million population. It already exports a lot of produce, but the scope for increasing this is considerable. In a sense Ireland is returning to it's pre-Celtic Tiger roots.

We should be doing that with engineering innovation, Britain led the world in technology in the 19th century and we were still a major world player up until the 1980's. Between them, the left-wing trade unions and the right-wing Thatcher government ended our time as a leading industrial nation.

Edited by Hyperduck Quack Quack

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There aren't many chimneys left to demolish and those that remain are probably listed structures. There's not much call for the services of steam rollers of steam traction engines these days, either!

Staying with the steam analogy, what we need is more Isambard Kingdom Brunel types, or more Nigel Gresley types!

We need more scientists, medical researchers etc. - and fewer management and media graduates and even fewer classics or history of art graduates.

I heard a radio programme about how in Ireland some people are seeing agriculture as their way out of the economic crisis, since Ireland can produce many times more food products than are needed for its 4 million population. It already exports a lot of produce, but the scope for increasing this is considerable. In a sense Ireland is returning to it's pre-Celtic Tiger roots.

We should be doing that with engineering innovation, Britain led the world in technology in the 19th century and we were still a major world player up until the 1980's. Between them, the left-wing trade unions and the right-wing Thatcher government ended our time as a leading industrial nation.

Well put.

That's what I meant. I use Fred as a role model rather then some sort of 'Sports Science' or worse still' Celebrity'.

Apparently, lots of kids want to be 'Presenters'on TV

Wearing a boiler suit and getting dirty needs to become more fashionable.That' s why a lot of the new Universities need to become Industrial Universities with their eyes firmly set on graduating engineers etc.

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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