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Military Takes Over Air Traffic Control In Spain

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air traffic control article

Spain's deputy prime minister, Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, announced that the army had been called in to take "control of air traffic in all the national territory" and said the head of the army would take decisions relating to the organisation, planning, supervision and control of air traffic.

Controllers abandoned their posts amid a lengthy dispute with the air traffic authority, Aena, over working hours and conditions, and hours after the government approved measures to partially privatise Spain's airports and hand over management of Madrid and Barcelona airports to the private sector.

Doubt the air traffic controllers will get much sympathy - they earn vast amounts of money (think several hundred thousand a year). Not sure that threatening strikers with prison (which the government has done) is the right option though.

Wonder if the French government have something similar planned?

For those wondering if their flight will go ahead, this twitter seems to have good links madridexpert

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Doubt the air traffic controllers will get much sympathy - they earn vast amounts of money (think several hundred thousand a year).

Ait traffic controllers earn it though seriously they do, it is pretty comparable to the responsibility they have. Surely you wouldn't want a NMW worker doing it right? Even if you computerise it you still need people as backup.

Its hard to get into the industry... IIRC when I applied back in the 1990s I didn't get past stage 1 (there are 4 stages just for interview), and it is super stressful such that your health is at severe risk.

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Ait traffic controllers earn it though seriously they do, it is pretty comparable to the responsibility they have. Surely you wouldn't want a NMW worker doing it right? Even if you computerise it you still need people as backup.

Its hard to get into the industry... IIRC when I applied back in the 1990s I didn't get past stage 1 (there are 4 stages just for interview), and it is super stressful such that your health is at severe risk.

They're picking up what? 3-5 x what their UK equivilents would get so no sympathy whatsoever.

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How long until the military take over Spain's central bank and currency (and other minor govt. operations)?

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Ait traffic controllers earn it though seriously they do, it is pretty comparable to the responsibility they have. Surely you wouldn't want a NMW worker doing it right? Even if you computerise it you still need people as backup.

Its hard to get into the industry... IIRC when I applied back in the 1990s I didn't get past stage 1 (there are 4 stages just for interview), and it is super stressful such that your health is at severe risk.

you try bringing up a kid...thats pretty responsible too.

ATC could be the most boring yet most exciting job in the world....no-one forces them to do it, so why are they paid huge sums?...oh yeah...Public Sector largesse.

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you try bringing up a kid...thats pretty responsible too.

ATC could be the most boring yet most exciting job in the world....no-one forces them to do it, so why are they paid huge sums?...oh yeah...Public Sector largesse.

Not really, in the UK children are bought up by the state. You are merely responsible for one life thats it. There are no constraints on your health and mental aptitude to be able to raise a child. I even know of a mother who is braindead but has managed to have a child. You're comparing apples to oranges.

An airplane has 200-300 people and has several crossing your space regularly, thus you are responsible for 100s of lives. All of which have families which will sue and it takes a strain on your life.

Also ATC in the UK was privatised by Gordon Brown. Way back in 1999 so ATC is actual a private company which services the public sector rather than it being a public sector organisation. As above there are supply demand issues, if few people can qualify to do it lest get past the interview stage then it's

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Years ago, Ronald Regan sacked all the striking Air Traffic Controllers in the States.

Managers, with the help of the military, kept the skys open to traffic. Over time, they trained up new staff and the sacked controllers never got their jobs back.

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Not really, in the UK children are bought up by the state. You are merely responsible for one life thats it. There are no constraints on your health and mental aptitude to be able to raise a child. I even know of a mother who is braindead but has managed to have a child. You're comparing apples to oranges.

An airplane has 200-300 people and has several crossing your space regularly, thus you are responsible for 100s of lives. All of which have families which will sue and it takes a strain on your life.

Also ATC in the UK was privatised by Gordon Brown. Way back in 1999 so ATC is actual a private company which services the public sector rather than it being a public sector organisation. As above there are supply demand issues, if few people can qualify to do it lest get past the interview stage then it's

I know what ATC does...its a long course and its amazing that my plane, which was quite rare, was always recognised by the controller who knew as good as me its approach requirements.

a long course doesnt justify a huge salary.

note also, if you look at the skies, most contrails are parallelish and generally not too many crossing ones.

In Paris recently, I looked up and saw crisscrossing trails, and several planes that from the ground all looked like they were very close and on collision course.

of course, the planes fly at flight levels according to direction, so the ATC AND the PILOT...who is responsible, both agree to the directions, but the Pilot MAY overide....then there are the computerised radar collision detectors, hieght info squak boxes and visual lookout.

Its not the passenger stuff thats in the most risk, its the small stuff and poor airlines that dont have all the avionics....

Course, French ATC insist on speaking French I gather, when the rest of the World speaks Engrish of sorts.

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I know what ATC does...its a long course and its amazing that my plane, which was quite rare, was always recognised by the controller who knew as good as me its approach requirements.

a long course doesnt justify a huge salary.

note also, if you look at the skies, most contrails are parallelish and generally not too many crossing ones.

In Paris recently, I looked up and saw crisscrossing trails, and several planes that from the ground all looked like they were very close and on collision course.

of course, the planes fly at flight levels according to direction, so the ATC AND the PILOT...who is responsible, both agree to the directions, but the Pilot MAY overide....then there are the computerised radar collision detectors, hieght info squak boxes and visual lookout.

Its not the passenger stuff thats in the most risk, its the small stuff and poor airlines that dont have all the avionics....

Course, French ATC insist on speaking French I gather, when the rest of the World speaks Engrish of sorts.

Thanks for that, best laugh I've had in ages.

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Thanks for that, best laugh I've had in ages.

I'll second that.

It is quite apparent that you have no idea how ATC in the London TMA works.

Nobody gets paid what they think they are worth, they get paid according to market forces, ask a nurse.

In ATC's case that means if it takes three years to train you, and lots of students don't make it to the end of training, the pay will be high as you can't be replaced without involving a lot of time and expense.

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Thanks for that, best laugh I've had in ages.

sorry, I missed out the part where UK ATC claim they have the toughest airspace in the world.

Again, Miami, for example there are a ton of airports, and they still manage balloons, aerobatic displays and aerial skywriting, pararchute drops, all seemingly taking place with airliners flying around the same piece of sky.

gaud bless NATS.

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I'll second that.

It is quite apparent that you have no idea how ATC in the London TMA works.

Nobody gets paid what they think they are worth, they get paid according to market forces, ask a nurse.

In ATC's case that means if it takes three years to train you, and lots of students don't make it to the end of training, the pay will be high as you can't be replaced without involving a lot of time and expense.

I aim to please and entertain.

My pal who completed the course loved it...stressful but loved it. Isnt it better to love a job rather than just do it for the money...specially something that requires care and involvement in a good outcome?

Id rather have an enthusiast doing my ATC in the snow and fog, than someone just kept there for the money.

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Just reminded myself of my first solo flight across country, Ipswich to Norwich, via Toys R US.

I added the word TYRO to may announcements to Military ATC...clear skies, 2000 ft, heading Northish.. Military ATC Acknowledged and asked me to continue but change frequency.

moments later half a dozen A10s appeared from all round....Im sure it was a wind up as they were all over the place. they cleared and I signed off and went to the Next zone.....more A10s....then to Norwich airport, cleared and came in and on approach a whole line of A10s were coming direct from the North...I was rattled, and the Norwich Controller confirmed not to worry.

Landed, and the controller told me they ( the yanks) do that as they hear of the TYRO.....Oh how we laughed and I looked forward to the return flight.

F111's on the way back!.

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Ait traffic controllers earn it though seriously they do, it is pretty comparable to the responsibility they have. Surely you wouldn't want a NMW worker doing it right? Even if you computerise it you still need people as backup.

Its hard to get into the industry... IIRC when I applied back in the 1990s I didn't get past stage 1 (there are 4 stages just for interview), and it is super stressful such that your health is at severe risk.

I heard that the ATC in Spain all called in sick as they did not have time to organise a strike! They should all be sacked. They have a great package apparently and let's face, ATC in Spain is not going to be anything like trying to run Heathrow.

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I heard that the ATC in Spain all called in sick as they did not have time to organise a strike! They should all be sacked. They have a great package apparently and let's face, ATC in Spain is not going to be anything like trying to run Heathrow.

As someone who's just got back from the airport after his holiday was cancelled an hour before the flight was due to depart, I can honestly say that the Spanish Army should move in with guns and force the controllers back to work.

The chaos and utter misery a few dozen people have created for the whole of europe is a disgrace.

I understand they do a stressful job and only a very small number of people are mentally capable of even doing the job, but these guys are paid £300,000 a year. There is a point where they need to be realistic.

All they are doing is bringing forward the day when they are completely replaced by a computer. Since all the information they work from is already displayed and pre-processed by a computer, it is only a matter of time,

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As someone who's just got back from the airport after his holiday was cancelled an hour before the flight was due to depart, I can honestly say that the Spanish Army should move in with guns and force the controllers back to work.

The chaos and utter misery a few dozen people have created for the whole of europe is a disgrace.

I understand they do a stressful job and only a very small number of people are mentally capable of even doing the job, but these guys are paid £300,000 a year. There is a point where they need to be realistic.

All they are doing is bringing forward the day when they are completely replaced by a computer. Since all the information they work from is already displayed and pre-processed by a computer, it is only a matter of time,

odd, that they are so rare talents that the Army, airforce and Navy can recruit them.

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odd, that they are so rare talents that the Army, airforce and Navy can recruit them.

They can't, the army aren't actually RUNNING the air traffic control... else I wouldn't have just missed my holiday.

The army are doing some basic stuff... basically they are just telling all the aircraft to F*CKOFF and not enter Spanish airspace.

Where-as they should be holding guns to the heads of the real air traffic controllers and forcing them to do their jobs.

There are a few jobs where it is never acceptable to go on strike. Air traffic control is one. The operators of the Thames barrage are another. As are the people that run the water treatment and sewerage works.

Mark my words, in a couple of years the strikes will start as automation starts to be put in. Most of the work could be done by computers, with the remaining work... a little talking to planes when the voice recognition struggles, could be done by anyone.

The hard part of the job is keeping track of what planes are where, where they are going, and what they are doing. Something computers are exceptionally good at, and would be better at than people... for example, if a pilot isn't doing what he's been told, the computer can spot that straight away and repeat command etc, where-as as human operators wont notice until the plane if noticably out of place.

All plane-to-plane collisions occur where the human air-traffic operator gets overloaded and losses track of what is going on... a computer can track eveery detail of all the planes at once and if something is out of place the computer will see instantly.

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I know what ATC does...its a long course and its amazing that my plane, which was quite rare, was always recognised by the controller who knew as good as me its approach requirements.

a long course doesnt justify a huge salary.

note also, if you look at the skies, most contrails are parallelish and generally not too many crossing ones.

In Paris recently, I looked up and saw crisscrossing trails, and several planes that from the ground all looked like they were very close and on collision course.

of course, the planes fly at flight levels according to direction, so the ATC AND the PILOT...who is responsible, both agree to the directions, but the Pilot MAY overide....then there are the computerised radar collision detectors, hieght info squak boxes and visual lookout.

Its not the passenger stuff thats in the most risk, its the small stuff and poor airlines that dont have all the avionics....

Course, French ATC insist on speaking French I gather, when the rest of the World speaks Engrish of sorts.

What a load of drivel.

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T

All plane-to-plane collisions occur where the human air-traffic operator gets overloaded and losses track of what is going on... a computer can track eveery detail of all the planes at once and if something is out of place the computer will see instantly.

All true but you still need the human there as a backup just in case, and you need to let them actually do it for real a few times so they are not out of practice. Pilots are backups for when computers go down and they do the odd landing now and again to stay sharp.

Hell even trains which are literally on rails can be computerised but we still have lots of train drivers don't we...... the trains are being automated in HK now on the Disney line you often see the driver reading a book or something.

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They can't, the army aren't actually RUNNING the air traffic control... else I wouldn't have just missed my holiday.

The army are doing some basic stuff... basically they are just telling all the aircraft to F*CKOFF and not enter Spanish airspace.

Where-as they should be holding guns to the heads of the real air traffic controllers and forcing them to do their jobs.

There are a few jobs where it is never acceptable to go on strike. Air traffic control is one. The operators of the Thames barrage are another. As are the people that run the water treatment and sewerage works.

Mark my words, in a couple of years the strikes will start as automation starts to be put in. Most of the work could be done by computers, with the remaining work... a little talking to planes when the voice recognition struggles, could be done by anyone.

The hard part of the job is keeping track of what planes are where, where they are going, and what they are doing. Something computers are exceptionally good at, and would be better at than people... for example, if a pilot isn't doing what he's been told, the computer can spot that straight away and repeat command etc, where-as as human operators wont notice until the plane if noticably out of place.

All plane-to-plane collisions occur where the human air-traffic operator gets overloaded and losses track of what is going on... a computer can track eveery detail of all the planes at once and if something is out of place the computer will see instantly.

What has that got to do with my point?

Spanish army turning away aircraft?...I thought the Authorities had "threatened" to bring in Military ATC...I didnt think they had done so yet.

As for all the people calling my post drivel, what a bunch of jobsworths you all are.

ATC is a job..A highly trained job...but the idea of the controlled airspace is to make it all manageable for people to do. I wouldnt trust a computer to do this, as its very easy for a radar to miss soemthing, to get the height wrong, for pilots to miss transponder settings, for these things to mis read...and doing the calculations in real time for 100 or so aircraft AND deciding which ones to talk to, id rather leave that to a decision making human.

Our London ATC make out theirs is the hardest in the World to control. You hear this time and again in the MSM whenever there is an incident. My point,was that other major locations, and I cited Paris and Miami, there is much more going on in and around the airports than we are even allowed here, and they cope.

as for the Criss Cross of the airliners....cant say you see that much over london....you see the stacks, you see the approaches, but they are all well spaced.

In Paris ( I was there a month ago) I looked up and airliners were going in all directions.. Im sure they have it all very well organised too, but that must look a whole lot different on a radar....the ATC have to check out the levels and the directions, whereas, ours are channelled into lanes... sure the French will have their corridors and different controllers or each, but really, is London so much more difficult?

And these same super safety conscious ATC in Spain called off sick en mass.....lets hope they closed things gracefully and no-one was put at risk. So much for a vocational approach.

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In Paris ( I was there a month ago) I looked up and airliners were going in all directions.. Im sure they have it all very well organised too, but that must look a whole lot different on a radar....the ATC have to check out the levels and the directions, whereas, ours are channelled into lanes... sure the French will have their corridors and different controllers or each, but really, is London so much more difficult?

And these same super safety conscious ATC in Spain called off sick en mass.....lets hope they closed things gracefully and no-one was put at risk. So much for a vocational approach.

Watch this for a bit

http://www.flightradar24.com/

Simply look at how many are going in and out of London vs everywhere else.

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Surely the right to withdraw your labour is a human right. The Spanish government is playing with fire here, this could end freedom as we know it and spread a police state across Europe.

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Surely the right to withdraw your labour is a human right. The Spanish government is playing with fire here, this could end freedom as we know it and spread a police state across Europe.

It worked well for Ronald Regan in 1981 :D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)

On August 3, 1981 the union declared a strike, seeking better working conditions, better pay and a 32-hour workweek. In doing so, the union violated a law {5 U.S.C. (Supp. III 1956) 118p.} that banned strikes by government unions. Ronald Reagan declared the PATCO strike a "peril to national safety" and ordered them back to work under the terms of the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947. Only 1,300 of the nearly 13,000 controllers returned to work.[4] Subsequently, Reagan demanded those remaining on strike return to work within 48 hours, otherwise their jobs would be forfeited. At the same time Transportation Secretary Drew Lewis organized for replacements and started contingency plans. By prioritizing and cutting flights severely, and even adopting methods of air traffic management PATCO had previously lobbied for, the government was initially able to have 50% of flights available.[4]

On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order,[6][7] and banned them from federal service for life (this ban was later rescinded by President Bill Clinton in 1993).[8] In the wake of the strike and mass firings the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as at the time it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller.[2] They were replaced initially with nonparticipating controllers, supervisors, staff personnel, some nonrated personnel, and in some cases by controllers transferred temporarily from other facilities. Some military controllers were also used until replacements could be trained. The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it would take closer to ten years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal.[2] PATCO was decertified on October 22, 1981.[9]

Some former striking controllers were allowed to reapply after 1986 and were rehired; they and their replacements are now represented by the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, which was organized in 1987 and had no connection with PATCO.

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


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