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Each Day That Goes By, The Next Election Gets A Month Closer.


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Well we'll have to agree to differ on which party's more nationalistic and racist. The make-up of the MPs in the commons, and the traditional policies on immigration and foreign policy make me of the opinion the tories have the form in the past and the residual right-wing xenophobia is still evident in the tory press.

As for the old canard about Nazis being socialist - well what's in a name ? National socialism is in political (ideological) terms the virtual opposite of socialism (nazis were class and race-obsessed, socialism propounds a classless society). There's very little common ground in the two political ideologies. The British political opposition to Nazism was most vehement from the labour party, whereas most appeasement toward Hitler came from the political right - that's a simple historical fact the tories can't avoid.

It is a bit of a silly argument anyway really since neither party is really racist or radical in any sense of the word.

To take Godwin to his natural conclusion, it is probably a fair middle ground to say that most extreme parties have in the past led to totalitarian dictatorships, whether left or right.

I would argue that Labour took us further down that route than the Tories ever have, though not to an extreme.. only through loss of civil liberties and growth/power of the state over the citizen.

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No, I own my own house outright actually. I worked hard and paid off my mortgage!

HPC's neo-fascist 'might-is-right' tendency on this site loves to show show contempt for anyone who doesn't have the same right-wing views as themselves. But being a leftist is just as valid a viewpoint as being a rightist. Any sane person would agree that Gordon Brown's period of government was a disaster, but the main cause of the disaster was the bankers, and they're hardly part of a left-wing conspiracy, are they? :lol:

Brown's mistake was to fail to see the problem until it was too late, misjudge what to do and land the country in a bigger mess as a

result.

I think the banks had a part to play in it actually. Or is someone going to say they didn't?

Let the banks do what they will, and they will rob everyone blind.

Who was it who took oversight and regulation of the banks and gave it to the crooked FSA?

Oh, that was Gordon.

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HPC's neo-fascist

The only neofascists in this country are Labour. After their sustained, decade long assault on civil liberties combined with their unrepentant corporatism and crony capitalism it looks like an open and shut case to me.

(the BNP are just plain fascists)

'might-is-right' tendency on this site loves to show show contempt for anyone who doesn't have the same right-wing views as themselves. But being a leftist is just as valid a viewpoint as being a rightist.

How come it's always lefties saying stuff like "The country won't be stupid enough to go for the Tories" and that sort of thing then? You're having a laugh, right? In my experience left wingers are the most bile ridden ad hominem addicted lot of all.

I think the banks had a part to play in it actually. Or is someone going to say they didn't?

It's like a murder. The banks were the gun. The man holding the gun was Gordon Brown. Who gets most of the blame?

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Well we'll have to agree to differ on which party's more nationalistic and racist. The make-up of the MPs in the commons, and the traditional policies on immigration and foreign policy make me of the opinion the tories have the form in the past and the residual right-wing xenophobia is still evident in the tory press.

As for the old canard about Nazis being socialist - well what's in a name ? National socialism is in political (ideological) terms the virtual opposite of socialism (nazis were class and race-obsessed, socialism propounds a classless society). There's very little common ground in the two political ideologies. The British political opposition to Nazism was most vehement from the labour party, whereas most appeasement toward Hitler came from the political right - that's a simple historical fact the tories can't avoid.

Yes we will have to disagree. You might care to remind yourself which party Oswald Mosley was a member of/ MP for ( clue; he was also a Fabian) before he started the BUF. Clearly a possible link between totalitarian ideology and the squeaky clean liberal left there ;)

Just another 'incovenient truth' the left in the UK do their best to ignore among so very many.

Edited by Warwick Yellow
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Yes we will have to disagree. You might care to remind yourself which party Oswald Mosley was a member of/ MP for ( clue; he was also a Fabian) before he started the BUF. Clearly a possible link between totalitarian ideology and the squeaky clean liberal left there ;)

Just another 'incovenient truth' the left in the UK do their best to ignore among so very many.

Wasn't he a Labour MP before starting the BUF?

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I cannot see how the Lib Dems can go on propping up the Tories in power without seeing their own party wither away to nothing.

Vince Cable has fired a dissident shot at the coalition by saying he might not vote for his own proposals re tuition fees, which themselves made a mockery of the Lib Dems manifesto commitments. If that's the case, then I guess there's a lot of anger within the party (the party I've always voted for up until now - but if there were an election tomorrow I'd vote Labour).

I watched this story on BBC news last night. Cable was interviewed then Nick Robinson said that Cable wasn't going to vote for his own proposals. I was sure I hadn't heard Cable say that at all. I rewound it and he hadn't. Cable said LIberals were thinking about it and could abstain if they wanted but he was in favour of the proposals.

It was just Pravda trying to influence minds again.

The interview is 9:10 into this BBC iplayer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007mplc

Edited by Redhat Sly
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I watched this story on BBC news last night. Cable was interviewed then Nick Robinson said that Cable wasn't going to vote for his own proposals. I was sure I hadn't heard Cable say that at all. I rewound it and he hadn't. Cable said LIberals were thinking about it and could abstain if they wanted but he was in favour of the proposals.

It was just Pravda trying to influence minds again.

The interview is 9:10 into this BBC iplayer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007mplc

The Lib Dems are trying to be democratic. The media doesn't understand it as they are used to our democratic parties being mostly autocratic. Labour are using it to their own advantage to score points against the the Lib Dems for going back on the same election pledge that they went back on many years ago. Also we have a more militant student body than ten years ago too, as they don't see a future as others have said. Even 5 years ago things were looking bright for young people, as we didn't have as many twentysomethings unemployed.

The Lib Dems are politically very naive. Give it a few years and they'll be better at dealing with the media. The conservatives are using them as a human shield for the press. I don't think the Coalition will fall. The Conservatives are in a good position and have enough power to be happy. The Lib Dems won't rock the boat too much as they have far more to lose than anyone else. They would lose credibility because they want more coalition politics and they would lose power and influence, which they haven't had since the 20s.

I don't expect there to be another Coalition next time though.

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The Lib Dems are trying to be democratic. The media doesn't understand it as they are used to our democratic parties being mostly autocratic. Labour are using it to their own advantage to score points against the the Lib Dems for going back on the same election pledge that they went back on many years ago. Also we have a more militant student body than ten years ago too, as they don't see a future as others have said. Even 5 years ago things were looking bright for young people, as we didn't have as many twentysomethings unemployed.

The Lib Dems are politically very naive. Give it a few years and they'll be better at dealing with the media. The conservatives are using them as a human shield for the press. I don't think the Coalition will fall. The Conservatives are in a good position and have enough power to be happy. The Lib Dems won't rock the boat too much as they have far more to lose than anyone else. They would lose credibility because they want more coalition politics and they would lose power and influence, which they haven't had since the 20s.

I don't expect there to be another Coalition next time though.

On the positive side, this libdem hate won't bode well for their referendum prospects :)

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The Lib Dems are trying to be democratic. The media doesn't understand it as they are used to our democratic parties being mostly autocratic. Labour are using it to their own advantage to score points against the the Lib Dems for going back on the same election pledge that they went back on many years ago. Also we have a more militant student body than ten years ago too, as they don't see a future as others have said. Even 5 years ago things were looking bright for young people, as we didn't have as many twentysomethings unemployed.

The Lib Dems are politically very naive. Give it a few years and they'll be better at dealing with the media. The conservatives are using them as a human shield for the press. I don't think the Coalition will fall. The Conservatives are in a good position and have enough power to be happy. The Lib Dems won't rock the boat too much as they have far more to lose than anyone else. They would lose credibility because they want more coalition politics and they would lose power and influence, which they haven't had since the 20s.

I don't expect there to be another Coalition next time though.

I wasn't really passing comment on the Liberals. I was just surprised (well perhaps not it was the BBC) that Nick Robinson said Cable had said something that he clearly hadn't.

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What's amused/infuriated most observers is the extent to which the Libdems have capitulated on any issue involving finance. Their's isn't a phased withdrawal from a position having looked at the books, but a complete 180 on a matter of conviction and principle from day one. The Tories must be laughing themselves stupid that one coalition partner gets everything it wants and the other gets to pretend to be in power. Like have a free chauffeur and telling them they're lucky to drive a nice car all day.

I've always thought the liberals were a rum lot after their local election monkey business, now they're proving they haven't a single policy they consider inviolable, they're flotsam on the tide of events. Still, it should mark a return to two party politics in the near future.

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I've always thought the liberals were a rum lot after their local election monkey business, now they're proving they haven't a single policy they consider inviolable, they're flotsam on the tide of events. Still, it should mark a return to two party politics in the near future.

I dunno, they are getting their AV referendum, no?

Thats pretty significant. Seems to be all they are getting which is key LibDemmery though.

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The stats speak for themselves. BNP do best in labour areas.

They do best in those areas opposing labour, not defecting from them. Labour tend to do better in traditional working class areas, and the right-wing in those areas may tend to defect to the BNP from the tories when disaffected. Of course labour switching to BNP happens, but IMO labour and the BNP support are rarely from the same pool of people, whereas the tories and the BNP operate on a continuum of right-wing thought. The anti-nazi league sprung from the left, socialist workers party etc, not from the Young Conservatives.

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But in the 'good old days' lots of students studied the classics, comparative theology, medieval art, Shakespeare and stuff. Probably less useful than media studies! Except, of course, in those days university was all about 'cultivating the mind'. "I see old Fortescue-Pomeroy is an old Harrovian and has an upper second in Greek from Baliol. His old man was a guards officer. We could do with a classicist on the board, what!" :D

Too clever by half.

A gentleman's third is what you want. :D

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I dunno, they are getting their AV referendum, no?

Thats pretty significant. Seems to be all they are getting which is key LibDemmery though.

They wanted a STV referendum. AV was actually a Labour policy.

The things I think they got so far were

Personal Allowance increase. The conservatives caved on that straight away.

Pupil Premium ( I think that was LibDem rather than Conservative ).

Removals on some of the police state stuff that Labour put in like ID cards. I think Nick Clegg is currently working in this.

Some Ministerial posts

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I dunno, they are getting their AV referendum, no?

Thats pretty significant. Seems to be all they are getting which is key LibDemmery though.

I've always been wishy washy on PR and its familiars, every vote should count and all that. Seeing how the Libs have piggy-backed the Conservatives without so much as tweak on the reins I've swung firmly to first past the post. If ever there was a situation designed to show the worst of smoke and mirrors deal brokering that leaves the status quo unchallenged, this parliament is it.

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They do best in those areas opposing labour, not defecting from them. Labour tend to do better in traditional working class areas, and the right-wing in those areas may tend to defect to the BNP from the tories when disaffected. Of course labour switching to BNP happens, but IMO labour and the BNP support are rarely from the same pool of people, whereas the tories and the BNP operate on a continuum of right-wing thought. The anti-nazi league sprung from the left, socialist workers party etc, not from the Young Conservatives.

Not true although leftists in their usual way say it a lot hoping to make it so, just like they do their best to try and forget Mosley was one of their's over at the Fabian Society.

The vast majority of BNP supporters are white working/ lower middle class ex Liebour voters who have become disillusioned with the constant lies of that party (why do you think Liebour dedicated so much resource to opposing the BNP in their target areas at the last election?). Most of the policies of the BNP (economics, green issues) are pure 'Old Liebour' accordingly; read their manifesto. The BNP did well at the last Euro election precisely in the geographies Liebour used to dominate.

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Not true although leftists in their usual way say it a lot hoping to make it so, just like they do their best to try and forget Mosley was one of their's over at the Fabian Society.

The vast majority of BNP supporters are white working/ lower middle class ex Liebour voters who have become disillusioned with the constant lies of that party (why do you think Liebour dedicated so much resource to opposing the BNP in their target areas at the last election?). Most of the policies of the BNP (economics, green issues) are pure 'Old Liebour' accordingly; read their manifesto. The BNP did well at the last Euro election precisely in the geographies Liebour used to dominate.

The only similarity is Labour and the BNP draw much of their support from working class voters. However outright election wins for the conservatives require a mobilisation of the same vote. It's old news that far left and far right share much in common. Those living in the most volatile conditions are often the ones least able to respond to them and the most likely to pursue quick fixes unquestioningly.

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When I hit 30 i found the ageing thing really hard I just hated it and longed for my youth again today at 47 I am so glad that I am not young today. Hopefully only have a few more years left untill i am finacially secure . I would hate to be young today they have so little to look forward to. Knew loads of people in my day who were married with kids by 25 mortgage payers and wifes able to be at home. Today those same peoples kids are older than 25 still at home and have no chance of leaving.

Most of the young people i meet are far more educated than I or my peers were but at their ages have far far less than we did and very little hope.

+1 (again :D )

But I don't think they realise. I work in higher education now and I see just how oblivious a lot of young people are these days. They really do think they will walk into well paid jobs and end up earning £70K+ at 30 years old just because they are who they are.

I think one of the major differences between our generations and the young today is that we were expected to be adults much sooner. I was expected to start to buy my own clothes when I got my first part-time job at 14; by contrast, my friend's daughter is currently playing hell because her mother says she will stop paying her £30 a month mobile bill when she reaches 18 (this girl works part-time as well and will get EMA). At 18, for us, reality hit. It just is not so anymore; they remain children for far longer.

The worrying thing is that I see undergraduates on a regular basis that simply do no work. Many don't read the reading lists anymore, nor even the source material (I think this goes some way to explaining the explosion in poor grammar and spelling -- young people just do not read as much as our generations did, so never experience that "osmosis" effect that allows them to know, automatically, whether their own sentences are correct or not).

Yes, these young people will probably wing it with a 2:i but they don't really know anything of value. They also do not know how to graft either. And, my goodness, are they poor in the workplace -- we have had problems at work with a young man who has been very rude to senior members of staff for no reason. These kids just don't know how to conduct themselves.

And we are heading into a time when not only your own subject but knowledge of others is becoming vitally important (interdisciplinary perspectives are the future), and our undergraduates are also competing against those in Europe and the rest of the world who are bi/trilingual. You know, I meet African, Arabic, Chinese and European students these days that are something else. They really are phenomenal in terms of their knowledge and capability. Our undergrads and grads just cannot compete.

Somebody needs to be honest with our young. The years of plenty are over, it is going to be hard and they are going to have to work hard.

I feel very angry at what has happened in the last ten years. Labour had the perfect opportunity to restructure the country and reboot the economy, insisting educational standards rose (they had the votes and the goodwill). Instead, we had a credit boom that covered up structural employment, economic and educational problems through just injecting money into the system, and a load of tinkering with social policy.

There was never a real economic "boom" in the traditional sense of the term. All the growth was false. There is nothing stable about pinching money, income and jobs from the future.

I suspect the coalition may collapse, but then what will be left? Labour are hopeless; they cannot run a whelk stall, let alone sort this mess out. The LibDems are not statesman, nor can they stick to their principles or argue their case for changing their principles effectively enough. And the Conservatives are already tainted and will be seen to be "destroying the poor" no matter what they actually do, and are hampered by the fact the top of the party are not from average backgrounds.

To be honest, I think we need a new party.

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Not true although leftists in their usual way say it a lot hoping to make it so, just like they do their best to try and forget Mosley was one of their's over at the Fabian Society.

The vast majority of BNP supporters are white working/ lower middle class ex Liebour voters who have become disillusioned with the constant lies of that party (why do you think Liebour dedicated so much resource to opposing the BNP in their target areas at the last election?). Most of the policies of the BNP (economics, green issues) are pure 'Old Liebour' accordingly; read their manifesto. The BNP did well at the last Euro election precisely in the geographies Liebour used to dominate.

Mosley was a toff who started off conservative and worked his way through several parties, though yes he was a labour MP before losing his seat.

Labour would dedicate resource against any party that represented credible opposition to them in a winnable seat. That the BNP became a force in a former Labour stronghold does not lead to the conclusion that these new BNP voters were ex-labour. A few will be, but more likely previous non-voters and disillusioned tories. The BNP have always been a predominantly right-wing fringe party and their natural constituancy is absolutely not traditional labour voters.

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Mosley was a toff who started off conservative and worked his way through several parties, though yes he was a labour MP before losing his seat.

Labour would dedicate resource against any party that represented credible opposition to them in a winnable seat. That the BNP became a force in a former Labour stronghold does not lead to the conclusion that these new BNP voters were ex-labour. A few will be, but more likely previous non-voters and disillusioned tories. The BNP have always been a predominantly right-wing fringe party and their natural constituancy is absolutely not traditional labour voters.

Mosley had every chance of being Liebour leader if he hadn't been messianic about rising to the top before a certain age.

As for resource so much more to where the BNP was strong for some peculiar reason if you look at where Liebour spent it's money in the last election!? Clearly the Guardian for instance does not entirely share your confidence;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/08/bnp-bradford-barnsley

The BNP only seems to do well in areas where the Tories have never had much presence or clout and their policies are in the most part Old Liebour...................clearly not tradtional Tories voing for them then.

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Mosley had every chance of being Liebour leader if he hadn't been messianic about rising to the top before a certain age.

As for resource so much more to where the BNP was strong for some peculiar reason if you look at where Liebour spent it's money in the last election!? Clearly the Guardian for instance does not entirely share your confidence;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/08/bnp-bradford-barnsley

The BNP only seems to do well in areas where the Tories have never had much presence or clout and their policies are in the most part Old Liebour...................clearly not tradtional Tories voing for them then.

Their policies are not old labour any more than every party has some core of similar policies (e.g. Labour and tory very similar in last 2 elections). However the evidence points to BNP voters being drawn from all camps, and most notably from previous non-voters (as I suggested in earlier post). http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/10/25/where-are-the-bnp-votes-coming-from/

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