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Each Day That Goes By, The Next Election Gets A Month Closer.


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HPC's neo-fascist 'might-is-right' tendency on this site loves to show show contempt for anyone who doesn't have the same right-wing views as themselves. But being a leftist is just as valid a viewpoint as being a rightist.

Despite Labour playing to sympathy from the left, and the conservatives from the right, I'm surprised to hear you talk in terms of left and right. I'd struggle to fit a rizla between the centre three.

Certainly struggling with the idea of the Tories being more fascist than Labour. How on earth did you reach that conclusion? Have some links.. I think you need a refresher!

Loss of civil liberties since 1997

Curb of civil liberties under Labour

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Maybe if they have to pay a little when they're earning they might decide that doing media studies or 'combined' studies isn't really going to do the country an awful lot of good.
But in the 'good old days' lots of students studied the classics, comparative theology, medieval art, Shakespeare and stuff. Probably less useful than media studies! Except, of course, in those days university was all about 'cultivating the mind'. "I see old Fortescue-Pomeroy is an old Harrovian and has an upper second in Greek from Baliol. His old man was a guards officer. We could do with a classicist on the board, what!" :D Edited by blankster
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He's not solely responsible then, because for most of the period in question Tony Blair was PM and could have sacked Brown if he thought he was doing things wrong. :lol:

Saying Brown is solely responsible is a bit like saying Margaret Thatcher was solely responsible for the destruction of Britain's industrial manufacturing base, or that Red Robbo was solely responsible for the downfall of British Leyland.

No Brown was not solely responsible the whole of the Labour Party were responsible. Tony Blair has a lot to answer for and people like David Milliband and others who did not have the courage in the final few years of that defunct govenment to oust GB.

The big problem with GB was he was the Chancelor for ten years no one should be in that same job for that long ( Blame TB ) and then became PM , but was also still the chancelor , Alistar Darling was just a puppet ( rumors abound and I bet they are true that AD had to hide money from GB as he would have spent it ).

The Bankers are not responsible for GB raiding the pensions of millions of ordinary British workers . This forced many people to get into BTL as they thought it was a better bet for their old age , coupled with so little housing being built we saw the bubble that is now collapsing.

Tony Blair and the rest of them voted to be one of just three countries who let the new EU states have employment access , therefore those same three countries have been flooded with cheap labour .

I could go on and on , but if I was ever asked to vote labour by anyone canvasing in an election , I would answer them with

" before you ask me to vote for you can I have the money that GB nicked from my pension back first ? "

Voted for them 3 times never never never again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Despite Labour playing to sympathy from the left, and the conservatives from the right, I'm surprised to hear you talk in terms of left and right. I'd struggle to fit a rizla between the centre three.
A year ago I was saying the same - that vision had disappeared from politics and it was all about competence and pragmatism. Brown was pragmatic - it was very difficult to see any of what he did as left, or socialist, just 'firefighting'. He was pragmatic, but unfortunately he made bad misjudgements. Metaphorically, he threw water on a chip-pan fire because he thought that was the right thing to do.
Certainly struggling with the idea of the Tories being more fascist than Labour. How on earth did you reach that conclusion?
I wasn't talking about the Tories, I don't think they're fascist, I was talking about elements on HPC !!!! Edited by blankster
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Sorry but most of the coalitions policies seem bang on to me

Trouble with this country is the need for instant results. Reversing the disgraceful results of 15 years of a Labour government takes time.

Good people in the coalition too, Ian Duncan Smith is about the most committed hardworking politician of the lot in my view, he's actually prepared to ******ing do something about our workshy chavvy scum that populate every town and city in England

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Despite Labour playing to sympathy from the left, and the conservatives from the right, I'm surprised to hear you talk in terms of left and right. I'd struggle to fit a rizla between the centre three.

Certainly struggling with the idea of the Tories being more fascist than Labour. How on earth did you reach that conclusion? Have some links.. I think you need a refresher!

Loss of civil liberties since 1997

Curb of civil liberties under Labour

Can't think why you would struggle with the concept of tories being more fascist than labour. Ideologically fascism is traditionally associated with the right, with nationalism, racism, against multiculturalism. I'd agree labour have eroded civil liberties, created surveillance concerns etc, but fascism? I'd say the rantings of the right wing tory-supporting press are the main fascist mouthpiece of the British establishment.

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Good people in the coalition too, Ian Duncan Smith is about the most committed hardworking politician of the lot in my view, he's actually prepared to ******ing do something about our workshy chavvy scum that populate every town and city in England

I would not hold you breath on that one , he is saying what you want to hear but how are they going to deleiver on that unless they can come up with a few million jobs which are not there , or forcing familys on to the streets like in the US . Apart from a few window dressing changes nothing much is going to happen.

Would have a bit more respect for him and the others if they would stand up and face facts, instead of finding scape goats . Yes there are work shy scroungers but also masses who want to work but cannot find work. When will they or an party accept that after 30 years of outsourcing, technology, and familys needing both adults to work to make ends meet that there are not enough jobs to go around.

Make work pay , So they raise personnel allowances great , but this then gets followed up by an increase in NI. That is not making work pay.

Make it easy for people to move to where the jobs are were IDS words on QT one nite and sited London as an example, funny that London has half a Million unemployed.

Don't hold your breath.

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Can't think why you would struggle with the concept of tories being more fascist than labour. Ideologically fascism is traditionally associated with the right, with nationalism, racism, against multiculturalism. I'd agree labour have eroded civil liberties, created surveillance concerns etc, but fascism? I'd say the rantings of the right wing tory-supporting press are the main fascist mouthpiece of the British establishment.

Yes, I struggle with the concept that the conservatives are more nationalistic, racist and totalitarian than Labour.

I await your evidence to the contrary.

As for Fascism being the preserve of the right, the most notorious fascist state in history was a national socialist party.

The fascist state you fear won't come from either Labour or the Conservatives.. it will come from the "peoples party" which will appear offering change if enough of the electorate become sufficiently disaffected with the main three.

Edited by libspero
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At least Gordo used to provide a few laughs.

Who could forget the microphone incident. The I saved the world incident. The clunking fist. All good stand up music hall stuff. Of course we also got the reneging on promises and the twisting and more lies but yes there were some laughs along the way.

With the current lot we're getting the wholesale reneging and the lies as well as the twisting and more lies and some more lies plus tons and tons of smarminess - but no laughs.

And they can't even get the weather right.

Edited by billybong
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But in the 'good old days' lots of students studied the classics, comparative theology, medieval art, Shakespeare and stuff. Probably less useful than media studies! Except, of course, in those days university was all about 'cultivating the mind'. "I see old Fortescue-Pomeroy is an old Harrovian and has an upper second in Greek from Baliol. His old man was a guards officer. We could do with a classicist on the board, what!" :D

Sorry I have to comment on this.... :D

I know ex-journalists and reporters that teach media studies and even they say it is a total waste of time, because a) there are not any jobs in media for these students to get, and B) what they teach on these courses isn't remotely vocationally accurate.

However, those that studied classics, comparative theology, medieval art, Shakespeare and stuff back in the day went onto to create products that people paid for and still do.

As an example, you may say that the study of classics and medieval literature is useless ... but it just so happens that those were the very subjects Tolkien studied and lectured upon, and he used his knowledge to create one of the most profitable narrative products in history, a product that stills continues to make millions for people today ...namely, The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

And I could go further. You could argue the study of ancient myth, legend and medival history is daft, but if a certain Irish gentleman by the name of Abraham Stoker had thought the same, we would never have had Dracula -- and imagine the millions upon millions that have been generated through that particular idea.

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My only gripe with the Coalition so far is that they haven't hit the Boomer generation hard enough, if at all. People over 60, irrespective of wealth, get substantial benefits they never even asked for and many (most recently Peter Stringfellow) are embarrassed to receive them. The Coalition doesn't touch them because Boomers kick up a stink when their benefits are threatened and, of course, they vote too. They must have thought the 'apathetic, indifferent and apolitical' youth would be a soft touch and would meekly pick up the bill for the greed and folly of older generations, just like my own generation let Gordon Brown screw their private pensions. Serves the politicians damn right that the students, for once, aren't taking this lying down. This is not just about fees; it is an inter-generational struggle that's been brewing ever since it was decided years ago that future generations could be left to sort out the mess.

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Interesting note today on 'Political Betting'

“If the LDs sink then Dave is out”

Link

Some rationale here, even supported by charts.

In any short term election, the Coalition could only go to the public on a joint platform. (Actually, defeating the point of a coalition - they effectively become one party.)

All good fun.

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My only gripe with the Coalition so far is that they haven't hit the Boomer generation hard enough, if at all. People over 60, irrespective of wealth, get substantial benefits they never even asked for and many (most recently Peter Stringfellow) are embarrassed to receive them. The Coalition doesn't touch them because Boomers kick up a stink when their benefits are threatened and, of course, they vote too. They must have thought the 'apathetic, indifferent and apolitical' youth would be a soft touch and would meekly pick up the bill for the greed and folly of older generations, just like my own generation let Gordon Brown screw their private pensions. Serves the politicians damn right that the students, for once, aren't taking this lying down. This is not just about fees; it is an inter-generational struggle that's been brewing ever since it was decided years ago that future generations could be left to sort out the mess.

If things do not change soon the younger generation are going to cause havock. In days gone by people moaned down the pub or in the work place rest room , this generation who have something to moan about have the easy of communication that the mobil phone and internet have given. It will be very easy for their moans to become actions as they will be able to mount and carry out protests.

Let's not forget that they have very little to lose. Men in their 20's are at their peak of fitness and strenght and can get very aggressive, the normal way for men to calm down and get sensible is the job of the woman who they marry and produce children with. With no means of providing a home for their familys they will not settle down and have kids . This anger is going to be taken out soon one way or another.

Temp jobs on NMW is not going to keep them happy.

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If things do not change soon the younger generation are going to cause havock. In days gone by people moaned down the pub or in the work place rest room , this generation who have something to moan about have the easy of communication that the mobil phone and internet have given. It will be very easy for their moans to become actions as they will be able to mount and carry out protests.

Too busy with xfactor and playing wii mate.

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Too busy with xfactor and playing wii mate.

Not all of them , were the students that rioted last week watching x factor and on their wii ? People in their 20's want to start leaving home and going out into the world standing on their own two feet . This has been taken away from them .

I think it a bit sad that anyone thinks the whole younger generation is that stupid and docile that they just watch x factor and other sh-t on the tv , the x factor bit is wearing a bit thin now.

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Not all of them , were the students that rioted last week watching x factor and on their wii ? People in their 20's want to start leaving home and going out into the world standing on their own two feet . This has been taken away from them .

I think it a bit sad that anyone thinks the whole younger generation is that stupid and docile that they just watch x factor and other sh-t on the tv , the x factor bit is wearing a bit thin now.

Have little sympathy. They were as quite as mice when Liebour introduced tuition fee's.

Occupying student buildings, yeh that will set the world alight. Free heating and a cold snap outside?

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Have little sympathy. They were as quite as mice when Liebour introduced tuition fee's.

Occupying student buildings, yeh that will set the world alight. Free heating and a cold snap outside?

Not talking about sympathy , if you read a few posts back I stated that the younger generation have nothing to lose and will create havock if they have no future.

You said they were to busy with x factor and wii,

I said no not all and the students that rioted the other day did do something about their plight .

Why has sympathy crept into things.

By the way when liebour introduced tuition fee's the students who rioted the other day were still in reception classes. Shows the difference between the students then who had a future and those today that do not.

Edited by miko
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Not all of them , were the students that rioted last week watching x factor and on their wii ? People in their 20's want to start leaving home and going out into the world standing on their own two feet . This has been taken away from them .

I think it a bit sad that anyone thinks the whole younger generation is that stupid and docile that they just watch x factor and other sh-t on the tv , the x factor bit is wearing a bit thin now.

There has been no future for the young in Britain since the mid 90s. I reckon that is why we had the anti-globalisation protests back in the late 90s, people instinctively knew then that something was very wrong.

9/11 ended all that ... suddenly it didn't seem so safe to be in public space anymore, but the problem remained. There has been hardly any work or opportunities outside the public sector and property developing in the last ten years for the young. The number of smart young people I know struggling on very low self-employed salaries or on less than average incomes is astounding.

It hasn't hit the public consciousness because so many young people do not realise how screwed they actually are until they get into their early 30s and realise that they will probably never earn more than they do at that point in their entire lifetime and they can't afford anything.

To be kinda brutal about it, the tuition fee proposals? The way things are going, hardly anyone will ever pay them back in the future because the way things have been for my generation, these young people will never earn enough to pay their loans back.

To my mind, tuition fees are the least of their problems. To leave home and stand on your own two feet? It has become nearly impossible for any young person to do this because where are the jobs? How do you afford the housing on the kind of salaries you get now? How do you pay bills, council tax, travel?

It is a disaster that has been playing out for years is this. Where is all the tax going to come from? Nominal and real incomes are falling.

We have to reform public spend for the pure reason that we have to restructure the entire system. We have to see housing costs fall dramatically (both rent and purchase) because there is, and will be, no ability to house everyone at the kinds of prices we are seeing. We have to restructure welfare because tax payers won't earn enough to pay for it all, and they all ready do not without a a huge credit spigot drawing down their earnings from the future.

Tuition fees? I feel for these young people because they haven't got a clue what's coming. And they have been lied to something chronic, like most of my generation was.

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There has been no future for the young in Britain since the mid 90s. I reckon that is why we had the anti-globalisation protests back in the late 90s, people instinctively knew then that something was very wrong.

9/11 ended all that ... suddenly it didn't seem so safe to be in public space anymore, but the problem remained. There has been hardly any work or opportunities outside the public sector and property developing in the last ten years for the young. The number of smart young people I know struggling on very low self-employed salaries or on less than average incomes is astounding.

It hasn't hit the public consciousness because so many young people do not realise how screwed they actually are until they get into their early 30s and realise that they will probably never earn more than they do at that point in their entire lifetime and they can't afford anything.

To be kinda brutal about it, the tuition fee proposals? The way things are going, hardly anyone will ever pay them back in the future because the way things have been for my generation, these young people will never earn enough to pay their loans back.

To my mind, tuition fees are the least of their problems. To leave home and stand on your own two feet? It has become nearly impossible for any young person to do this because where are the jobs? How do you afford the housing on the kind of salaries you get now? How do you pay bills, council tax, travel?

It is a disaster that has been playing out for years is this. Where is all the tax going to come from? Nominal and real incomes are falling.

We have to reform public spend for the pure reason that we have to restructure the entire system. We have to see housing costs fall dramatically (both rent and purchase) because there is, and will be, no ability to house everyone at the kinds of prices we are seeing. We have to restructure welfare because tax payers won't earn enough to pay for it all, and they all ready do not without a a huge credit spigot drawing down their earnings from the future.

Tuition fees? I feel for these young people because they haven't got a clue what's coming. And they have been lied to something chronic, like most of my generation was.

+1 could not agree more

I left school in 1979 with a few "O" levels messed up a good job and was in dead end work untill 22 ( but i always had hope ) when I got a good job and bought my first home that same year. Right up till 2006 I earned really good money and should have been a bit more carefull. However earn very little now but have a small place paid for . I have a good pension that I can get my hands on in 7 years and should inherit some money in time.

When I hit 30 i found the ageing thing really hard I just hated it and longed for my youth again today at 47 I am so glad that I am not young today. Hopefully only have a few more years left untill i am finacially secure . I would hate to be young today they have so little to look forward to. Knew loads of people in my day who were married with kids by 25 mortgage payers and wifes able to be at home. Today those same peoples kids are older than 25 still at home and have no chance of leaving.

Most of the young people i meet are far more educated than I or my peers were but at their ages have far far less than we did and very little hope.

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The bottom line is that the libdems know all this too, and wouldn't want to throw away the potential to be in government for another 4 years, so they will stick with the coalition. 5 days is a long time in politics, and 5 years is an eternity. All the things said in this thread will be ancient history by 2015.

Think back to 1997/8 and the 'bad' things labour were doing then. Ecclestone etc. Did that affect voting behaviour in 2001?

Even if this threads OP is onto something, how does it translate into seats gained/lost? My hunch without doing the numbers is that a collapse in lidem vote to labour would turn most of the southwest yellow seats to blue. How many con/lab marginals would turn red? dunno tbh. Then factor in the increased con vote from previous fence sitters that like what they're doing - the silent majority NOT burning stuff and whinging a lot.

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Yes, I struggle with the concept that the conservatives are more nationalistic, racist and totalitarian than Labour.

I await your evidence to the contrary.

As for Fascism being the preserve of the right, the most notorious fascist state in history was a national socialist party.

The fascist state you fear won't come from either Labour or the Conservatives.. it will come from the "peoples party" which will appear offering change if enough of the electorate become sufficiently disaffected with the main three.

Well we'll have to agree to differ on which party's more nationalistic and racist. The make-up of the MPs in the commons, and the traditional policies on immigration and foreign policy make me of the opinion the tories have the form in the past and the residual right-wing xenophobia is still evident in the tory press.

As for the old canard about Nazis being socialist - well what's in a name ? National socialism is in political (ideological) terms the virtual opposite of socialism (nazis were class and race-obsessed, socialism propounds a classless society). There's very little common ground in the two political ideologies. The British political opposition to Nazism was most vehement from the labour party, whereas most appeasement toward Hitler came from the political right - that's a simple historical fact the tories can't avoid.

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