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jonesinamillion

Hello... And Kruger Opinions!

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Firstly, hello all... what a great forum! LOTS of knowledge on here, superb!

Just after your opions please. Firstly I'm no money man / big time investor, jsut trying to do something for my daughters future.

Wanted to invest in gold in about '06 but never had the funds. After a little reasearch I've just made my fisrt gold purchase, I've got myself 2 1oz 1974 Krugers (paid a healthy deposit and will be completing soon). I've agreed and fixed a price of £1500 for the pair. I'm happy with the condition (not proofs obviously) and satisfied that they are genuine (purchased from a reputable, long established, high-end jeweler).

One will be kept regardless of what the price does untill my daughters 18th birthday, the other I will trade in if i need to or the price hits the highs that some predict in the next 5years or so.

My questions...

I know I've bought at golds peak, but I'm thinking there is more value to come; was gold the right investment for my daughters future?

Have I got a good deal on the Krugers?

What to do with them storage wise and should I notify my home insurers?

For future investments for her, should I stick with building a gold portfolio or try other options?

Many thanks!

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Have I got a good deal on the Krugers?

Hi.

This sounds like too good a deal to me! The spot price for gold (as I write) is £866/oz and you are getting each coin for £750! The coins are selling for around £920 from dealers.

If they are genuine, you've got a bargain, but I'd be wary...

Regards,

crude.

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I've agreed and fixed a price of £1500 for the pair.

My questions...

I know I've bought at golds peak, but I'm thinking there is more value to come; was gold the right investment for my daughters future?

Have I got a good deal on the Krugers?

What to do with them storage wise and should I notify my home insurers?

For future investments for her, should I stick with building a gold portfolio or try other options?

£750 for a kruggerand is absurdly cheap. Something's not right there ... will you tell us who your dealer is?

Regarding your question about gold as a long term investment, it's impossible to answer. You have to watch the markets and adapt as the trends change. My advice is to watch interest rates. Whe the central banks start raising rates significantly, it will be time to start selling off IMO. I'm guessing that this will happen some time around 2014.

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Thanks, I'm happy that tjheuy are genuine, just think I've dropped on!

Went into this jewelers just enquiring about bullion / gold in general as an investment. The jewellers has been trading for about 80yrs and is pretty high end so I've no reason not to trust them.

I've seen the coins and they look & feel good to me and they will be tested in fromt of me before I exchange.

They told me a customer had requested 2 krugers to be ordered and had left a deposit at the start of the year, he's since dissapeared so they needed to return the kriugers to their supplier in SA. To save them any hassle they said I could have them for £800 each or £1500 for the pair, so I had the pair!

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£750 for a kruggerand is absurdly cheap. Something's not right there ... will you tell us who your dealer is?

If he discloses that it'll be swamped by HPCers in tinfoil hats backing their trucks up. I'll be among them.

A plausible explanation is old stock whose price hasn't been updated and the staff lack the awareness to check. If that's the case, buy as much as you can at that price. It certainly doesn't seem right and if you do buy, go straight to the nearest pawnbroker and ask them how much they'll lend you on them - they'll check the authenticity and you can politely decline their offer.

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£750 is too cheap and no one that knows gold would sell a krug for that. Something is far from right, I wouldnt touch them.

1974 is a year that I know of as having a batch of convincing fakes around, how many I have no idea.

what you will need to do though if you wont drop the idea is :

1. Get some digital scales, ebay are cheap, that will weigh within 0.1g. Take them with you and weigh the coin. If it is much more than 0.1g from 33.93g then walk away.

2. Test the coin to make sure that it is gold. Make an fist with your thumb at the top and balance a krug on your trigger finger knuckle. Flick it with the nail of a finger on your other hand. If the coin 'rings' something like you would expect a tuning fork to then it is gold. If the coin has a dull thud it is a dud.

Be careful he hasnt taken in fakes and is just trying to recover his cash.

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Thanks, I'm happy that tjheuy are genuine, just think I've dropped on!

Went into this jewelers just enquiring about bullion / gold in general as an investment. The jewellers has been trading for about 80yrs and is pretty high end so I've no reason not to trust them.

I've seen the coins and they look & feel good to me and they will be tested in fromt of me before I exchange.

They told me a customer had requested 2 krugers to be ordered and had left a deposit at the start of the year, he's since dissapeared so they needed to return the kriugers to their supplier in SA. To save them any hassle they said I could have them for £800 each or £1500 for the pair, so I had the pair!

return to SA?

That is a BS story and they know it. This has scam written all over it. They could sell those coins to anyone for more than £800 each.

They could sell them to HGM for £870 or goldline/bairds or coininvest or anyone else.

These guys are in the trade so know this.

Now I am convinced that the coins are bent. Walk away.

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Thanks folks.

As mentioned above, I'm not disclosing where they're from until I've got them in hand or you lot'll be over them like a plague of locusts!

After that I'll gladly name them though.

I'll certainly be taking a closer look at them this weekend and getting them to test them in fornt of me.

I was 100% happy that were genuine but now I'm only 95% after reading above... I'll keep you posted!

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Thanks folks.

As mentioned above, I'm not disclosing where they're from until I've got them in hand or you lot'll be over them like a plague of locusts!

After that I'll gladly name them though.

I'll certainly be taking a closer look at them this weekend and getting them to test them in fornt of me.

I was 100% happy that were genuine but now I'm only 95% after reading above... I'll keep you posted!

i wouldnt rely on them testing them in front of you.

1.do the ring test, cant fake that.

2. weigh them.

if they use an electronic tester it proves nothing. A gold plated dud will still show as gold.

an acid test will still show gold unless they scrape the coin deep enough to go through a layer of plating, which they wont.

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As others have said you could buy them, put them in the post to an online dealer and make £240 + at today's spot price if they are genuine and you get them for that price :blink:

If something is too good to be true...

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£750 for a kruggerand is absurdly cheap. Something's not right there ... will you tell us who your dealer is?

Regarding your question about gold as a long term investment, it's impossible to answer. You have to watch the markets and adapt as the trends change. My advice is to watch interest rates. Whe the central banks start raising rates significantly, it will be time to start selling off IMO. I'm guessing that this will happen some time around 2014.

So tomorrow I'll be going to see my coins; I'll want to see them weighed (I can validate their scales by weighing a penny to 3.56g), conduct the "ring"test and ask to see their invoice / paperwork for when they purchased them. Is their any value in me taking a set of vernier calipers to check the dimensions?

I must admit, I trust the shop entirely and would feel a bit of a t1t "questioning" their legitimacy and reputation!

If they purchased them at the start of 2010 and had a deposit off the intended initial customer then i still think it's plausable that they're only recouping their initial outlay and i've got lucky... god knows I deserve some!

Thanks & I'll let you know my findings tomorrow

Edited by jonesinamillion

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I warned Sharpe about bent 1974's back in april 2009 when he started a thread asking about a krug that didnt look right.

I told him how to do the ring test. He couldnt get it to ring so took it back to the dealer.

They also look different but the mistakes are subtle so not much use unless you know krugs.

Dealer weighed it told him it was ok so Sharpe told him about the ring test.

Dealer cut the coin in half and it had a grey center, was a dud.

The dealer was experienced and got caught out. The jeweller that you are buying from already has a cover story and is selling way below spot.

The thread has been deleted but you could pm Sharpe for details.

Edited by richyc

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my local cash for gold guy (who i buy coins off) cuts all krugers in half before he offers the punter any cash. Then straight in the melting put. He's more bothered about loosing the cash then making a little more by selling an intact kruger.

And if they are a jewler they will be able to sell them for 97-98% of spot with no messing around, if they are letting you have them at 750 you are either very lucky, exceptionally good looking or its dodgy.

My personal thoughts.... FRAUD.

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So tomorrow I'll be going to see my coins; I'll want to see them weighed (I can validate their scales by weighing a penny to 3.56g), conduct the "ring"test and ask to see their invoice / paperwork for when they purchased them. Is their any value in me taking a set of vernier calipers to check the dimensions?

I must admit, I trust the shop entirely and would feel a bit of a t1t "questioning" their legitimacy and reputation!

If they purchased them at the start of 2010 and had a deposit off the intended initial customer then i still think it's plausable that they're only recouping their initial outlay and i've got lucky... god knows I deserve some!

Thanks & I'll let you know my findings tomorrow

What an interesting tale. Looking at this from a risk/reward perspective, it looks questionable.

Gain if the coins are legitimate: ~£290 (using Hatton Garden Metals as a price guide)

Loss if coins are fake: ~£1400 (I'm assuming that a little gold plating can be recovered)

Chance of the coins being legitimate: ?

Richyc's ring test is a must.

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I bought a tenth kruger from a local auction room earlier this year. They offer a gaurantee on all gold coins . I know this thread is about full krugers, but can anyone offer any advice on tenths, and how to check for fakes. Is it worthwhile forging tenths, and does anyone know of any?

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I bought a tenth kruger from a local auction room earlier this year. They offer a gaurantee on all gold coins . I know this thread is about full krugers, but can anyone offer any advice on tenths, and how to check for fakes. Is it worthwhile forging tenths, and does anyone know of any?

damn near impossible to make a convincing fake that weighs right and is as small as a 1/10. Never heard of it and dont expect to.

lots of fake sovs out there but they are generally quite easy to spot.

quite a few sovs made in the middle east that are not genuine but are gold, they made them themselves as a copy of a recognised coin. Mostly 22c although some have been as low as 9c. Early fakes are gold covered but with a platinum core which would be a good find today since platinum isnt worthless like it was.

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Been up today to see the coins (and put a few more quid down); I'm allot happier now...

They BOTH ring like a bell :D , both of hem a good solid high pitch quality ting / ring to them!

Both look identical apart from one is in a bit better cond so tested one further...

Weight = 33.903gm

Measured dimensions (with my calipers so not calibrated) and 32.57mm wide x 2.94 mm thick (measured on the thickest part ie the rim).

This sound good to yo guys? Think I'm content now and will pay them off asap!

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damn near impossible to make a convincing fake that weighs right and is as small as a 1/10. Never heard of it and dont expect to.

lots of fake sovs out there but they are generally quite easy to spot.

quite a few sovs made in the middle east that are not genuine but are gold, they made them themselves as a copy of a recognised coin. Mostly 22c although some have been as low as 9c. Early fakes are gold covered but with a platinum core which would be a good find today since platinum isnt worthless like it was.

Are you reasonably safe by weighing them? Another thing i noticed is that when gold went briefly above $1400 sovs went up. Now its dropped off but the price of sovs seems to have stuck at a higher price, especially in auctions.

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A teaser for you all; whilst looking for ways to check my Krugers I thought I'd calculate the density of one of my coins & compare it against the density of 22ct (quoted at 17.7 - 17.8 gm / cc).

A standard Krug works out to be 14.17gm / cc and mine works out at around 13.9 gm/cc and it should be 17.7c/cc! Any ideas???

Calc as follows.

Vol = H x pi x radius squared.

Divide weight by volume to give the density.

Try it out youself and see what you get for a standard krug?

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A teaser for you all; whilst looking for ways to check my Krugers I thought I'd calculate the density of one of my coins & compare it against the density of 22ct (quoted at 17.7 - 17.8 gm / cc).

A standard Krug works out to be 14.17gm / cc and mine works out at around 13.9 gm/cc and it should be 17.7c/cc! Any ideas???

Calc as follows.

Vol = H x pi x radius squared.

Divide weight by volume to give the density.

Try it out youself and see what you get for a standard krug?

Woudnt have thought you could measure it exactly enough , what with the indentations etc. You would need a mean average thickness. Weighing seems more accurate i would guess.

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  • 140 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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