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'is Our Reliance On Growth A Snare And A Delusion?'

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"In the middle of a recession renewed economic growth is always considered the great panacea that will get us out of the mess we are in. However, is this really the way to tackle the problems of a finite world? Peter Day wonders if our reliance on growth is not a snare and a delusion."

Producer: Sandra Kanthal.

RELATED LINKS

John Kay (www.johnkay.com)

New Economics Foundation (www.neweconomics.org)

Daniel Ben-Ami (danielbenami.com)

Transition Towns Network (www.transitiontowns.org)

Centre for Environmental Strategy, University of Surrey (www.ces-surrey.org.uk)

CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS PROGRAMME:

John Kay

Economist and Author, Obliquity

Andrew Simms

Policy Director, New Economics Foundation

Daniel Ben-Ami

Author, Ferraris for All

Hal Gilmore and Ben Brangwyn Transition Towns Network

Professor Tim Jackson

Centre for Environmental Strategy, University of Surrey and Author: Prosperity Without Growth

BROADCASTS

Thu 25 Nov 201020:30BBC Radio 4

Sun 28 Nov 201021:30BBC Radio 4

Edited by shell

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Thought people might be interested My link

"In the middle of a recession renewed economic growth is always considered the great panacea that will get us out of the mess we are in. However, is this really the way to tackle the problems of a finite world? Peter Day wonders if our reliance on growth is not a snare and a delusion."

Producer: Sandra Kanthal.

RELATED LINKS

John Kay (www.johnkay.com)

New Economics Foundation (www.neweconomics.org)

Daniel Ben-Ami (danielbenami.com)

Transition Towns Network (www.transitiontowns.org)

Centre for Environmental Strategy, University of Surrey (www.ces-surrey.org.uk)

CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS PROGRAMME:

John Kay

Economist and Author, Obliquity

Andrew Simms

Policy Director, New Economics Foundation

Daniel Ben-Ami

Author, Ferraris for All

Hal Gilmore and Ben Brangwyn Transition Towns Network

Professor Tim Jackson

Centre for Environmental Strategy, University of Surrey and Author: Prosperity Without Growth

BROADCASTS

Thu 25 Nov 201020:30BBC Radio 4

Sun 28 Nov 201021:30BBC Radio 4

The Tories are gambling that our nation will grow enough to allow the fiscal deficit to close.

FWIW, I dont think it will grow by as much as is needed, and I also think that they have underestimated the resilience of those who claim their entitlements from the taxpayer. Then we will be forced to make proper cuts by the market. I wonder how much rope the markets will give the UK?

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people who have spent all their lives living off the taxed income poorer people now want to prevent future capitalist growth out of spite

nice

Edited by Si1

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Part of the reason why we are, where we are today is because we have grown too fast/quickly... how about stepping back a few paces to gather our breath then start to walk first rather than run.....we have already run to fast thus failing to savour the best part as so focused in getting to the top....a sad and lonely place. ;)

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The Tories are gambling that our nation will grow enough to allow the fiscal deficit to close.

FWIW, I dont think it will grow by as much as is needed, and I also think that they have underestimated the resilience of those who claim their entitlements from the taxpayer. Then we will be forced to make proper cuts by the market. I wonder how much rope the markets will give the UK?

I hope the programme illuminates and doesn't end up doing a weird U turn where it ends up trotting out the usual BBC recovereh carp.

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I hope the programme illuminates and doesn't end up doing a weird U turn where it ends up trotting out the usual BBC recovereh carp.

I remember sitting with a broker trying to sell me an endowment. He showed me how much I could gain if the fund returned 10% pa. He showed me the smaller gain it would make if it could do 8%. At 6% it would pay off the mortgage.

What happens if it is less than 6% I said? He told me honestly that there would be a shortfall on the mortgage. He followed by stating that endowments had never performed that badly in recent history.

This was in the mid 1990's. Since then any fund with over 6% has performed like a God.

I didnt take the endowment, I had doubts about paying others to manage my money, something I felt I could do ok.

I now have similar doubts when we are told that the UK can now grow its way back to a properly balanced economy. But I look at all those pensions that we are supposed to be paying soon, and the promises of the Tories to link those pensions to earnings, and I realise that they dont have a clue what to do nor what the implications will be for the UK if they cannot balance the budget.

As we have little power to affect things, best pray that the UK grows in line with expectations.

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I remember sitting with a broker trying to sell me an endowment. He showed me how much I could gain if the fund returned 10% pa. He showed me the smaller gain it would make if it could do 8%. At 6% it would pay off the mortgage.

What happens if it is less than 6% I said? He told me honestly that there would be a shortfall on the mortgage. He followed by stating that endowments had never performed that badly in recent history.

This was in the mid 1990's. Since then any fund with over 6% has performed like a God.

I didnt take the endowment, I had doubts about paying others to manage my money, something I felt I could do ok.

I now have similar doubts when we are told that the UK can now grow its way back to a properly balanced economy. But I look at all those pensions that we are supposed to be paying soon, and the promises of the Tories to link those pensions to earnings, and I realise that they dont have a clue what to do nor what the implications will be for the UK if they cannot balance the budget.

As we have little power to affect things, best pray that the UK grows in line with expectations.

A low cost endowment was a with profit savings scheme with no guarantees that provided an income to many others other than the investor...a repayment mortgage was a guaranteed way of repaying a mortgage that only the lender and the borrower benefited from.

The pension problem is the biggest unfunded and non-guaranteed elephant in the room we see today...but governments are not in the habit of looking long term enough to assure us, they don't know themselves......growth does not necessarily bring wealth when we can't even guarantee our own future and there are more and more that want part of that future. ;)

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Of course it is. Pretty obvious stuff - if you have to keep running ahead just to stay put then you're screwed. Growth for improvement, but you should be able to maintain position and standards without it.

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I wish somebody could explain to me how factories churning out more plasma screens makes it easier for me to buy what I need to survive. Seems to me that landlords just increase their rents to take account of all the extra disposable income I have now that manufactured tat is cheaper.

Edit: on second thoughts, increased rents probably add to GDP, don't they?

Edited by Dorkins

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I wish somebody could explain to me how factories churning out more plasma screens makes it easier for me to buy what I need to survive. Seems to me that landlords just increase their rents to take account of all the extra disposable income I have now that manufactured tat is cheaper.

Edit: on second thoughts, increased rents probably add to GDP, don't they?

Your disposable income is their supply. ;)

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Martin Clunes speech as Reggie Perrin at the end of the last series pretty much sums it up for me. Maybe someone else can find a link or quote it.

Persuit of growth so that we can destroy more valuable resources making more crap for more people that nobody needs. What is the point of growth? As long as we can have enjoyable and healthy lives, this should be our goal!

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Persuit of growth so that we can destroy more valuable resources making more crap for more people that nobody needs. What is the point of growth? As long as we can have enjoyable and healthy lives, this should be our goal!

Serious question...what do you define as crap? I enjoy my XBOX for example.

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Our system is (deliberately) set up so economic growth is captured by parsitism. Because of this, economic growth creates counter-productive incentives which eventualy unbalance the system

It's not the growth that's the problem, it's the parasites

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Serious question...what do you define as crap? I enjoy my XBOX for example.

90% of the food products sold in supermarkets I would define as crap. Colourful boxes/bottles/jars, zero to negative nutritional value (in terms of the effect it's going to have on your life expectancy), full of fat and salt and sugar and colouring and stabilisers.

How much do crisps cost, in £/kg? A 40p 34.5g pack of Walkers Salt and Vinegar works out to £11.40/kg. You can easily buy steak for that price.

Crap is when you pay good money for something of low to negative utility value.

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Thought people might be interested My link

"In the middle of a recession renewed economic growth is always considered the great panacea that will get us out of the mess we are in. However, is this really the way to tackle the problems of a finite world? Peter Day wonders if our reliance on growth is not a snare and a delusion."

Producer: Sandra Kanthal.

RELATED LINKS

John Kay (www.johnkay.com)

New Economics Foundation (www.neweconomics.org)

Daniel Ben-Ami (danielbenami.com)

Transition Towns Network (www.transitiontowns.org)

Centre for Environmental Strategy, University of Surrey (www.ces-surrey.org.uk)

CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS PROGRAMME:

John Kay

Economist and Author, Obliquity

Andrew Simms

Policy Director, New Economics Foundation

Daniel Ben-Ami

Author, Ferraris for All

Hal Gilmore and Ben Brangwyn Transition Towns Network

Professor Tim Jackson

Centre for Environmental Strategy, University of Surrey and Author: Prosperity Without Growth

BROADCASTS

Thu 25 Nov 201020:30BBC Radio 4

Sun 28 Nov 201021:30BBC Radio 4

Growth is over

We just haven't got round to recognising it yet.

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90% of the food products sold in supermarkets I would define as crap. Colourful boxes/bottles/jars, zero to negative nutritional value (in terms of the effect it's going to have on your life expectancy), full of fat and salt and sugar and colouring and stabilisers.

How much do crisps cost, in £/kg? A 40p 34.5g pack of Walkers Salt and Vinegar works out to £11.40/kg. You can easily buy steak for that price.

Crap is when you pay good money for something of low to negative utility value.

I agree....we buy convenience foods because we are either too lazy, too busy, or unaware how to make something quick, easy and tasty from basic fresh seasonal foods that will make you feel so much healthier and better..ready meals are filled with ingredients that are simply there to prolong its shelf life.

Home made is best, bulk make freeze and you can then cook your own ready meals that you know what has gone into them.......you are what you eat. ;)

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Growth is over

We just haven't got round to recognising it yet.

I agree

resource constraints will push growth into the long grass. One only has the read The limits to growth second edition.

It's gonna be hard to grow an economy without cheap abundant oil and we have almost reached the end of the oil age.

I can't help but think that $147 oil pushed the global economy over the edge and i dont think i stand alone, even some wiser economists think the same

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Growth is over

We just haven't got round to recognising it yet.

I disagree. I think fake growth, namely the production of ever increasing amounts of stuff that have no positive effect on human health or happiness, may well be approaching an end. People with less money and more time will eventually learn to take care to buy (or dare I say, make and maintain) things that have some actual utility value. Market forces will encourage quality and usefulness instead of volume and outward appearance. I think in the future we may well end up getting more bang for our buck when it comes to economic activity.

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Where we have failed is to focus on own self and own goals, coveting our achievements, this is not a productive way to live, one that we can all collectively gain from, but it is what the large corporations and leaders want us to strive for, to keep us working and paying......the community spirit is dying, but people that come together, share together will overcome and win together. ;)

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I disagree. I think fake growth, namely the production of ever increasing amounts of stuff that have no positive effect on human health or happiness, may well be approaching an end. People with less money and more time will eventually learn to take care to buy (or dare I say, make and maintain) things that have some actual utility value. Market forces will encourage quality and usefulness instead of volume and outward appearance. I think in the future we may well end up getting more bang for our buck when it comes to economic activity.

Some people are of the mindset that they work hard so they deserve rewards in the form of stuff.

I am of the mindset that if I want stuff I would have to be working extra for it.

Friends of mine work ridiculous hours and commute long distances - their house is stuffed with things - to the point of looking like a tip!

I'm sure if they dropped their hours by 20% and bought less stuff they'd be far happier - for example he could ride the £1000 mountain bike that he bought but, as far as I know, has never ridden!

They are probably far better as citizens promoting growth but sod that, stuff is nice but it is only stuff.

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Some people are of the mindset that they work hard so they deserve rewards in the form of stuff.

I am of the mindset that if I want stuff I would have to be working extra for it.

Friends of mine work ridiculous hours and commute long distances - their house is stuffed with things - to the point of looking like a tip!

I'm sure if they dropped their hours by 20% and bought less stuff they'd be far happier - for example he could ride the £1000 mountain bike that he bought but, as far as I know, has never ridden!

They are probably far better as citizens promoting growth but sod that, stuff is nice but it is only stuff.

I used to know many like that....they had a title...their job had importance...their life and success was measured by what material possessions they owned.

Talking about job titles, I remember a company I worked for decided to change all the job titles to make the employees feel more important and worthy...the job stayed the same though. ;)

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90% of the food products sold in supermarkets I would define as crap. Colourful boxes/bottles/jars, zero to negative nutritional value (in terms of the effect it's going to have on your life expectancy), full of fat and salt and sugar and colouring and stabilisers.

How much do crisps cost, in £/kg? A 40p 34.5g pack of Walkers Salt and Vinegar works out to £11.40/kg. You can easily buy steak for that price.

Crap is when you pay good money for something of low to negative utility value.

I agree.

Ancedotally, I have just come back from the supermarket and the old 6 pack of Kettlechips I pick up is now displaying as bold as brass across the front in big smart graphics.. New 5 Pack. They are actually marketing a reduction in pack size from 180g to 150g amazing (no corresponding price drop mind).

David Cameron calling for Economic Growth is meaningless without exponential growth of the UK population afterall that is what capitalism requires in order to thrive. What he is actually stating very clearly is the governments agenda is rampant inflation.

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I agree.

Ancedotally, I have just come back from the supermarket and the old 6 pack of Kettlechips I pick up is now displaying as bold as brass across the front in big smart graphics.. New 5 Pack. They are actually marketing a reduction in pack size from 180g to 150g amazing (no corresponding price drop mind).

David Cameron calling for Economic Growth is meaningless without exponential growth of the UK population afterall that is what capitalism requires in order to thrive. What he is actually stating very clearly is the governments agenda is rampant inflation.

one £1 = 1 crisp. ;)

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Part of the reason why we are, where we are today is because we have grown too fast/quickly... how about stepping back a few paces to gather our breath then start to walk first rather than run.....we have already run to fast thus failing to savour the best part as so focused in getting to the top....a sad and lonely place. ;)

No the reason we are where we are, is the house I bought in 1976 is more or less the same house it is today. It hasn't grown at all.

We paid around £7500, I guess it's 'worth' £160000 today.

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  • 145 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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