Ash4781 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Bbc has yield of 5.9% on the 15year and 4.9% on the 5 year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 ...which is a bit like the way left-wing lickspittles in the UK go on about bankers, the rich, bankers, Bullingdon boys, bankers, rich people, bankers and how everything would be fine if we just had more socialism and everyone did as they were told by their finger-wagging benefactors. Would this be the finger-wagging IMF - the one that actually enforces things? There is a false conflation here that left=authoritarian as well - which is a classic of the tea partiers. Coin, sides, same, two. The difference being that the rich people actually have the money, that's why they are called rich. PS - tax avoidance is not illegal - did you mean evasion? Or are we all supposed to be little drones, happily paying in the maximum we can to the glorious state? Well, unless I'm very much mistaken, there is a pretty big industry operating the the grey area between minimising tax bills and outright non-payment, and that industry would not exist if things were as black and white as you imply. Ask Vodaphone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the shaping machine Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 It's a bit like the way right wing curmudgeons in the UK go on about 'diversity officers' and 'benefits scroungers' as being the source of all our overspend.. and not such minor things as large scale tax avoidance, bank bailouts and pensions. If reducing state spending is "taking money out of the economy", and so according to the left, a bad thing thing, why is increasing the tax take a good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the shaping machine Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 There is a false conflation here that left=authoritarian as well - which is a classic of the tea partiers. The left does have a pretty bad record on this issue. Remind us again who wanted everyone to have an identity card? The difference being that the rich people actually have the money, that's why they are called rich. I imagine most "rich people" invest most of their savings, so technically they don't have all the money. Remember wealth is not a zero sum game. Well, unless I'm very much mistaken, there is a pretty big industry operating the the grey area between minimising tax bills and outright non-payment, and that industry would not exist if things were as black and white as you imply. Ask Vodaphone. Vodaphone presumably pay the minimum they are required to by law. I don't see a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckard Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 BUMP. 10yr BTPs nudging 6% again, FTSE MIB down 2.50% The respite was brief, by the looks of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) BUMP. 10yr BTPs nudging 6% again, FTSE MIB down 2.50% The respite was brief, by the looks of it. FGoria Fabrizio Goria by PeterWatt123 ***Italian stock exchange: The Italian gvt bonds markets Mot is suspended until tomorrow*** It's 4:40 over there so it could just mean the market's closed for the day... Edited July 18, 2011 by thecrashingisles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckard Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I guess few people on here have noticed, with all eyes on the US debt ceiling debate, but 10yr BTPS are now pretty much back at pre-bailout 2 levels. Same goes for Spanish 10yr bonds. Watch this space ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sillybear2 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) Mamma Mia! :- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBTPGR10:IND http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GSPG10YR:IND Spreads are now wider than Jordan on the rebound :- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.IT10:IND http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.SPAGER10:IND Italy's debt profile has quite short maturities compared to the UK, but an average of 7 years could turn this into a gently smoldering problem. If they have to roll over debt at >7% levels then default almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially at low growth levels. They're the third largest sovereign debtor in the world behind the US and Japan in terms gross outstanding debt. Debt-to-GDP of 120% is also pushing it a bit, but some are buoyed by the fact overall debt levels are only 250%, not too horrific by anglo-saxon standards. Mind you, we still have control over the "print" button. Looks like the German's exchanged all those shiny new motors in the bubble era for increasingly worthless IOU's. Thank God we don't have an outsized banking sector that is directly and indirectly exposed to this junk, oh we do. We're f***d Edited July 29, 2011 by sillybear2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 That's because it's the low taxes will make you rich mantra and I think a lot of the least educated and poorest believe in the American dream that they too can make it and if they do they don't want the nasty state stealing all their money. How exactly are high taxes supposed to make you rich unless you're a troughing public sector employee? Income tax is one of the most effective means the rich have to ensure that the poor can't get rich to compete with them; the rich are already rich and their income isn't classed as income, but the poor can't become rich when most of their income is stolen from them by the government. And I'm always amused to see the left -- who are supposed to be the ones who care about the poor working class -- whine about how awful said poor working class people are when they have the temerity not to vote for left-wing politicians. Maybe the 'uneducated poor' are smart enough to realise that the left want them to stay poor in the hope that they'll vote for lefties who promise them free stuff paid for by other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepwello'nights Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Mamma Mia! :- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBTPGR10:IND http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GSPG10YR:IND Spreads are now wider than Jordan on the rebound :- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.IT10:IND http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.SPAGER10:IND Italy's debt profile has quite short maturities compared to the UK, but an average of 7 years could turn this into a gently smoldering problem. If they have to roll over debt at >7% levels then default almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially at low growth levels. They're the third largest sovereign debtor in the world behind the US and Japan in terms gross outstanding debt. Debt-to-GDP of 120% is also pushing it a bit, but some are buoyed by the fact overall debt levels are only 250%, not too horrific by anglo-saxon standards. Mind you, we still have control over the "print" button. Can you explain how as an investor I could benefit from this if I take the view that Italy will be able to honour its debt commitments. Unlike the UK Italy has a successful manufacturing base and isn't heavily reliant on the financial services sector. It's probably self sufficient in food production as well, if it had to be. Also the population has, what I regard as, a healthy attitude towards central and local government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I take the longer, original Kondratieff view that the 'Great Cycle' was roughly timed to human lifetimes, or about sixty or seventy years, with the last two debt destruction events being the 1870s ('The Long Depression') and the 1930s ('The Great Depression'). I think this one has pushed it out to eighty years because humans are living longer and it has taken longer for the last 'wise ones' to die off (at least in influence). There is even talk of longer cycles, and I'm partly of the mind that this is the next '300 year event' comparable to the 'South Sea Bubble' (but luckily not the next millennial-scale event after 'The Dark Ages'). (Interestingly, I do remember Kondratieff being mentioned by my Oxbridge professor with a laughing pooh-poohing, as not compatible with rational expectations and efficient market theory and everything that laid the foundations for the recent, ongoing ultra-bubble. I think Prechter says that interest in 'long cycles' always grows just after great collapses and wanes just by the time the next one is due! ) There should have been a correction around 97/98 when LTCM and the Asian crisis happened but the bankers managed to rig the system and avoid the collapse, this left the imbalances in place and built to the current mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 How exactly are high taxes supposed to make you rich unless you're a troughing public sector employee? Income tax is one of the most effective means the rich have to ensure that the poor can't get rich to compete with them; the rich are already rich and their income isn't classed as income, but the poor can't become rich when most of their income is stolen from them by the government. And I'm always amused to see the left -- who are supposed to be the ones who care about the poor working class -- whine about how awful said poor working class people are when they have the temerity not to vote for left-wing politicians. Maybe the 'uneducated poor' are smart enough to realise that the left want them to stay poor in the hope that they'll vote for lefties who promise them free stuff paid for by other people. Where have I argued for high taxes? I'm arguing the low tax mantra is an illusion because the tax breaks go to the rich. The poor will work harder and longer for little extra benefit apart from maybe an earlier grave. The economic system won't allow the poor to become rich because that would trigger inflation. People in the Weimar where extremely cash rich but couldn't buy anything with the money, the wealthy only maintained there wealth if they controlled the means of production. The poor are always at a disadvantage the to privileged elites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I guess few people on here have noticed, with all eyes on the US debt ceiling debate, but 10yr BTPS are now pretty much back at pre-bailout 2 levels. Same goes for Spanish 10yr bonds. Watch this space ... A clear indication that we haven't created enough debt to bailout the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Can you explain how as an investor I could benefit from this if I take the view that Italy will be able to honour its debt commitments. Unlike the UK Italy has a successful manufacturing base and isn't heavily reliant on the financial services sector. It's probably self sufficient in food production as well, if it had to be. Also the population has, what I regard as, a healthy attitude towards central and local government Last figures I saw put the UK and Italy roughly on a par for manufacturing. I'm also a bit confused about the bit in bold. Admittedly I lived in the South when I was there but it appeared to me that no matter who was in power 50% of the population were guaranteed to utterly despise them. Having said that, IMO that is a healthy attitude toward anyone in government so maybe thats it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepwello'nights Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Last figures I saw put the UK and Italy roughly on a par for manufacturing. Total output is pretty similar but a lot of their manufacturing is still nationally owned. I perceive their domestic market to be more loyal to their own products than the UK. Not in the case of consumer electronics where far eastern manufacturers hold sway. I'm thinking cars, motorcycles, domestic appliances. They also have their fair share of heavy manufacturing. it appeared to me that no matter who was in power 50% of the population were guaranteed to utterly despise them. Having said that, IMO that is a healthy attitude toward anyone in government so maybe thats it. Esattamente Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckard Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Italian 10-Year Yield Spread Over German Bonds Widens to Euro-Era Record FTSE MIB down 4%, Italian banks getting hammered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Can you explain how as an investor I could benefit from this if I take the view that Italy will be able to honour its debt commitments. An investor can take advantage of the situation by finding someone who believes that Italy will be able to honours its debt commitments, and then trade with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drrayjo Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/vespa-has-crashed-mountain-italy-burning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 If you are going to go down....you might aswell go down in style.....both Blair and Cameron know a good thing when they see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drrayjo Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8675928/Italy-in-eye-of-the-storm-as-cash-runs-low.htmlo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilEdna Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8675928/Italy-in-eye-of-the-storm-as-cash-runs-low.htmlo Your link doesn't work - I've corrected it here: Telegraph article Edited August 1, 2011 by EvilEdna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahoma Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I've got three horses, so I'd rather not say anything bad about Italy. In fact, the Italian economy is fine! FINE! Bella! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/vespa-has-crashed-mountain-italy-burning Liking the Tolkien reference.One currency to rule them all One currency to find them One currency to f**k them up And in austerity bind them Like this from the quotes on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckard Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Italy financial stability committee says international uncertainties weighing on Italy "it started in America" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckard Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 More here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/04/us-italy-ratingagencies-prosecutors-idUSTRE7734FR20110804 CONSOB (the Italian FSA) are also investigating Deutsche bank for selling 7bn worth of BTPs in the first six months of this year. It's not just the evil anglo-saxons who are leading the charge against the PIIGS, I'm afraid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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