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Take me to the cleaners

Slow Start To Fuel Protest

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Is this another example of the way we have changed. A few years back there would have been hundreds turning out.

Did anything happen about HPC "Direct Action" calls? I have not been concntrating recently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4243950.stm

Edit - Forgot the link.

Edited by Take me to the cleaners

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It's worth remembering in any debate about tax on fuel that we have lower taxes overall in comparison with most European economies. And if you ask protesters what public services they want cutting to pay for fuel tax cuts, or what other taxes they want putting up to compensate for any ensuing shortfall they fall strangely silent.

Although actually most journalists are so pig-ignorant that Spence and his cronies are rarely asked these questions.

In this country we are hypocrites. We moan about how crap the NHS is and how bad our education services, but then again we moan about parting with the money to pay for them to get better. At some point in the future when climate change overwhelms us we'll moan about the government not having done anything about it, but in the meantime we want cheaper fuel.

Bring on the next mass extinction!

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We moan about how crap the NHS is and how bad our education services, but then again we moan about parting with the money to pay for them to get better.

Odd, isn't it. The NHS and schools have been crap for years, and the solution is always 'more money!'. We give them more money and they're still crap, and the solution is always 'more money!'.

Have you ever considered that maybe 'more money!' is the last thing these organisations need? Giving them more money when they do badly is hardly going encourage them to do well, is it?

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Have you ever considered that maybe 'more money!' is the last thing these organisations need? Giving them more money when they do badly is hardly going encourage them to do well, is it?

Yes; and maybe.

Yes, I have considered it, and not all their problems are to do with lack of money, but some are, which is why giving them more when they're doing badly maybe the right thing to do. It's widely accepted - even by the Tories themselves - that during the Thatcher and Major years the health service was starved of funds. Anecdotal I know, but I have a mate who works in the NHS at a fairly high level and he says that the extra money has made a big difference and that services in the big city where I live have got significantly better.

Trouble is, Gordon Brown doesn't have the revenue stream to pay for it any more, hence the humiliating economic-cycle start date shuffle and hence the tax rises coming our way soon....

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This could mark a turning point. It seems tha that UK population themselves can now be terrorised with the threat of ant-terror laws being used against them. Gordon can tax with impunty.

Last one out switch off the light, actually you may not need to, the lights may already be out due to lack of planining and foresight.

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Odd, isn't it. The NHS and schools have been crap for years, and the solution is always 'more money!'. We give them more money and they're still crap, and the solution is always 'more money!'.

Have you ever considered that maybe 'more money!' is the last thing these organisations need? Giving them more money when they do badly is hardly going encourage them to do well, is it?

MarkG, your assertions that the NHS and schools are "crap" should be backed up with evidence. Are more people dying? Are more school leavers illiterate? I am not a fan of the obsessive targets culture of the Government, but services do seem to be improving (for example http://www.policyhub.gov.uk/news_item/nhs_2005.asp) Higher spending on both means that funding has barely reached the European average but your arguemtn would seem to be purely based on antipathy to the public sector generally.

Perhaps the fuel protests have failed to attract mass support simply because their arguemts are wrong, and have been shown to be so.

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Guest Bart of Darkness

Apathy is endemic in this country.

The solution, as I see it is...

Ah feck it, I can't be bothered!

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Last one out switch off the light, actually you may not need to, the lights may already be out due to lack of planining and foresight.

Personally I'm surprised that there are still middle-class people in Britain who haven't applied to emigrate yet. It's clear that this country is rapidly becoming a police-state hell-hole, so why would anyone with any foresight want to stay?

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Odd, isn't it. The NHS and schools have been crap for years, and the solution is always 'more money!'. We give them more money and they're still crap, and the solution is always 'more money!'.

Have you ever considered that maybe 'more money!' is the last thing these organisations need? Giving them more money when they do badly is hardly going encourage them to do well, is it?

It always amazes me that time and time again we try the same approach (more money) to the same problems, but somehow expect the result to be miraculously different this time. Maybe there's a parallel to house prices in here somewhere - it's definitely different this time. :lol:

On a serious note though, from what I've seen the issues with schools and the NHS is that they're generally overly regulated, red tape, demoralising places to work. I believe that there are many many genuinely talented and passionate people who work in schools and the NHS, but somehow the system ends up just grinding them down. It's time for a re-think from the perspective of the people who have to work there, not from the position at the top - this at least might have some beneficial effect.

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It's time for a re-think from the perspective of the people who have to work there, not from the position at the top - this at least might have some beneficial effect.

Indeed. But that will never happen while schools and hospitals are government-run and get more money if they provide worse 'services'.

Government 'services' will always be crap so long as we reward failure rather than success. As for 'targets', it's far easier to change the targets than actually improve services... which is precisely what's been done: anyone who thinks all those A grade A-levels show that schools have improved obviously hasn't met many of the people they're churning out.

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Apathy is endemic in this country.

The solution, as I see it is...

Ah feck it, I can't be bothered!

The gradual 'brainwashing' of the 'masses' has taken hold then! :ph34r:

Imagine what 'new ideologies' are being taught to young kids @ school nowadays!

Edited by erranta

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its not apathy. no ones bothered other than a handful of moaning truckers and a handful of countryside alliance farmers pissing every one off as they get cheap red diesel.

this isnt a public driven protest. people are so mEWed up they dont care about a few more pence at the pump.

i doubt the british public will be united enough to protest ever again.

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Indeed. But that will never happen while schools and hospitals are government-run and get more money if they provide worse 'services'.

Government 'services' will always be crap so long as we reward failure rather than success. As for 'targets', it's far easier to change the targets than actually improve services... which is precisely what's been done: anyone who thinks all those A grade A-levels show that schools have improved obviously hasn't met many of the people they're churning out.

I notice you still haven't offered any evidence to support your assertion that schools and the NHS are "crap".

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Personally I'm surprised that there are still middle-class people in Britain who haven't applied to emigrate yet. It's clear that this country is rapidly becoming a police-state hell-hole, so why would anyone with any foresight want to stay?

well said that man

I know a lot who have made the move and next to none want to come back

Revolution is the anser because the current system is so corupt it can not be fixed

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Is this another example of the way we have changed. A few years back there would have been hundreds turning out.

I have an inkling why people think protesting is useless:

IMG_0657copy.jpg

What happened next, hmm...?

Edited by Sledgehead

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It's worth remembering in any debate about tax on fuel that we have lower taxes overall in comparison with most European economies. 

That's because we are taxing business OUT OF EXISTENCE!

Still, when our companies shrink to shadows of their former selves and the govs tax take shrinks with it th epublic will realise just who has been paying for the party, and who is left to pick of the ret of the tab, job or no job:

cntax13.gif

UK companies languish high in world tax league, Telegraph, 13/09/2005

Still, there's always buy-to-let :lol::lol:

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ive said it before and will say it again

lets privatise everything

give out the NI contributions as a health voucher to every resident to be spent at the prvt hospital/doctor of your choice.

And do the same for every kid give em all a school attendance vouncher.

but then all the people that earn there living from these bloated and useless old industries would now have to actually work for a living.

cutting the slack is the answer and always has been

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Guest Bart of Darkness
lets privatise everything

With a privatised Police force (or forces), you might actually get some sort of response when calling them, if not you could just sign up with the competition.

(well maybe that might be going a bit far ;) )

I'd just like to see a Police force that actually seems bothered about the concerns of ordinary people.

Actually, I'd just like to see a Police force. Where do they keep them when they're not at football matches?

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Homeless

Why not move to New Orleans and see the results of private wealth and public under-investment for yourself? Looks great doesn't it? Personally I prefer other examples to learn from. Norway seems a good alternative. They've just voted for an party that will increase spending on an already generous Welfare State, but they are the best country in the world to live in. These bloody left wingers, go around making peoples' lives better, improving standards of living, protecting the environment. Bah humbug!

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