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No One Forced The General Public

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People didn't want 5x mortgages, they have happily paid 50p for a 4-bedroomed detached house. The overstretched were strectehd by the people selling them the houses, the previous occupants, all the banks, government did was egg it on, they didn't physically force Mr. Smith to whack on an extra 20K to the asking price because that's what the house down the road went for. So in the end, yeah, it's the people to blame, but not just the buyers, and morally, less their blame than others.

Hmm, let me guess though, *feels psychic aura*... you consider yourself to be one of the 5% that shouldn't be liquidated? This despite the fact it appears you weren't incisive enough to get in before the bubble and fleece the grunts? No, no, hang on, this is HPC of course, you'd have refused to capitalise on someone over-paying for your house and sold it for what you paid for it originally. Huzzah!

+1

The job of the banks is to lend money only to those who can pay it back.

That risk is supposed to be on the balance sheet of that bank. Corporatists lobbied to get that risk shifted elsewhere and when it was the financial "industry" grew massively.

When it all collapsed the private debt assumed by the financial industry was then put onto the public balance sheet.

Still the narrative that it is all the fault of reckless borrowers and Kirsty Allsop fits better with the "private business can do no wrong" narrative of the right.

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The most just outcome would be for those engaged in fraud to lose their shirt, have their wealth clawed back and jail or a death sentence

Those engaged in fraud include liar loan applicants, some mortgage brokers, some bankers, some regulators, ratings agencies, some appraisers and law enforcement officials and many politicians.

It is incredible that 3 years into the worst global credit crisis in history, hardly anyone is facing prosecution even though we know for a fact there have been gigantic industrial-scale frauds in the mortgage market. The failure to prosecute and instead misappropriate taxpayer funds to enrich fraudsters more means our politicians, past and present, should be first to face the firing squad

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People didn't want 5x mortgages, they have happily paid 50p for a 4-bedroomed detached house. The overstretched were strectehd by the people selling them the houses, the previous occupants, all the banks, government did was egg it on, they didn't physically force Mr. Smith to whack on an extra 20K to the asking price because that's what the house down the road went for. So in the end, yeah, it's the people to blame, but not just the buyers, and morally, less their blame than others.

Hmm, let me guess though, *feels psychic aura*... you consider yourself to be one of the 5% that shouldn't be liquidated? This despite the fact it appears you weren't incisive enough to get in before the bubble and fleece the grunts? No, no, hang on, this is HPC of course, you'd have refused to capitalise on someone over-paying for your house and sold it for what you paid for it originally. Huzzah!

the point is, no-one is allowed to fail...250,000 people being helped at this time is 250,000 too many.

it makes you wonder how on earth there are any possessions at all...are they all the result of crime?

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This is the bottom line. People need to take responsibility for this fecking disaster. All the insecure dirt who wanted that X5 and shitty new build, even though they were basically poor, need to take a look at themselves.

The banks are scum, but, they had a regular supply of fecking idiot punters who were desperate to sign up for that mortgage or loan for a crap kitchen, hoping to look wealthy when really they were all just peasents that the banks laughed at.

This is the truth of the situation. 95% of the western worlds population should be put out of their misery IMO. Fecking grunts that are, now going to be the cannon fodder for the banks.

Oh dear!!

Come on, that's bit unfair. We all know what it was like from 2000-2007. The pressure was unbelievable. Most of us thought we would be homeless in our old age if we didn't leverage ourselves into home ownership.

The banks weren't warning us, the government wasn't warning us, our elders didn't warn us (aren't they always saying how wise they are? Bah!). Everyone was saying that there was a permanent shift in the economy and that a permanent divide was opening up between the property owners and the renters. Who wouldn't have taken that information and decided that the risks of over-leveraging were less than the risks of missing the boat forever to live as a second-class citizen?

I don't agree that people should be protected from that foolish decision, mind (other than the basic welfare state provisions). I get annoyed when people blame it all on the banks; individuals should have exercised some common sense and historical perspective. However, it's hard to make a cultural shift in just a few years from 'The bank won't give me a loan, I guess they know better than I do' to 'The bank is throwing money at me, but I think their judgment is poor'. For most people, when a bank was offering money, they thought a proper risk assessment had been done by an institution that knew better than them. Turns out they were wrong.

People were foolish, incredibly foolish. But they are not scum.

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This is the bottom line. People need to take responsibility for this fecking disaster. All the insecure dirt who wanted that X5 and shitty new build, even though they were basically poor, need to take a look at themselves.

The banks are scum, but, they had a regular supply of fecking idiot punters who were desperate to sign up for that mortgage or loan for a crap kitchen, hoping to look wealthy when really they were all just peasents that the banks laughed at.

This is the truth of the situation. 95% of the western worlds population should be put out of their misery IMO. Fecking grunts that are, now going to be the cannon fodder for the banks.

Oh dear!!

Fred Goodwin, Adam Applegarth or Andy Hornby? Personal responsibility?

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There is plenty of evidence of systemic fraud. Of course, no one put a gun to anyone's head, but you underestimate the power of the media in determining peoples' thoughts.

I am torn at the moment between thinking we need better regulation, and just joining the spivs and fooking people over for a living instead of trying to make an honest crust.

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There is plenty of evidence of systemic fraud. Of course, no one put a gun to anyone's head, but you underestimate the power of the media in determining peoples' thoughts.

.

Well, there is the effect of the media, but i think the simple, easily observable FACT that all the surpluses were appearing in real estate price was far more convincing. People were trapped somewhat in a dilemma - they could either get on the real estate gravy train (become a 'winner') or fall down the tunnel of rising costs it was creating.

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Individuals are the group who have got off lightest when it comes to blame for this mess. IMO.

And remember everything is made up of individuals. Banks, FSA, Goverrnment house builders whatever. All just a grouping of individuals being bellends.

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It's important not to confuse responsibility with blame.

If a borrower borrowed unwisely, repaying the loan should be his or her responsibility.

Is the borrower to blame? Maybe, maybe not. I personally don't feel much blame towards, say, a young couple with a child on the way, who were not prepared to tolerate the insecurity of UK rental contracts, and whose bank, newspaper, TV, friends and parents all assured them that house purchase was a one way bet.

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No One Forced The General Public to borrow from the scum banks.

True however blaming the borrower without blaming the lender is blaming the user without blaming the dealer. Meth/money same thing.

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Come on, that's bit unfair. We all know what it was like from 2000-2007. The pressure was unbelievable. Most of us thought we would be homeless in our old age if we didn't leverage ourselves into home ownership.

The banks weren't warning us, the government wasn't warning us, our elders didn't warn us (aren't they always saying how wise they are? Bah!). Everyone was saying that there was a permanent shift in the economy and that a permanent divide was opening up between the property owners and the renters. Who wouldn't have taken that information and decided that the risks of over-leveraging were less than the risks of missing the boat forever to live as a second-class citizen?

I don't agree that people should be protected from that foolish decision, mind (other than the basic welfare state provisions). I get annoyed when people blame it all on the banks; individuals should have exercised some common sense and historical perspective. However, it's hard to make a cultural shift in just a few years from 'The bank won't give me a loan, I guess they know better than I do' to 'The bank is throwing money at me, but I think their judgment is poor'. For most people, when a bank was offering money, they thought a proper risk assessment had been done by an institution that knew better than them. Turns out they were wrong.

People were foolish, incredibly foolish. But they are not scum.

Feel the same sympathy for crack heads?

I'm guessing not.

How about all the folk who spunk their wages up the wall on horses or cards? No?

Those that got stung by ponzi schemes or invested in icelandic accounts?

Where does personal responsibility end and the nanny state begin? Why was it that so many of us here thought it was a bad idea and chose not to play? Are you really suggesting that it wasn't their fault because it was there on a plate? The rapists excuse?

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Feel the same sympathy for crack heads?

I'm guessing not.

How about all the folk who spunk their wages up the wall on horses or cards? No?

People don't live in / work from a horse; you don't need a horse to start a family

If you did. then i would have some sympathy for people cornered into overpaying for horses

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Feel the same sympathy for crack heads?

I'm guessing not.

How about all the folk who spunk their wages up the wall on horses or cards? No?

Those that got stung by ponzi schemes or invested in icelandic accounts?

Where does personal responsibility end and the nanny state begin? Why was it that so many of us here thought it was a bad idea and chose not to play? Are you really suggesting that it wasn't their fault because it was there on a plate? The rapists excuse?

Having to provide yourself (and familly) shelter at 6 x salary is a tad different to putting your whole week's wage on the 14:45 'dead cert' at Doncaster.

Besides what's the alternative, renting? Lining the pockets of the bigger frauds (BTL scum) and keeping them afloat, whilst moaning about not being able to afford a place of your own?

What would happen if everyone did that?

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Its a bankers JOB to sell loans.

they were 20% of the economy.

they LIED about how the money was available.

It was a WALL OF MONEY from far Eastern Investors. It was Pension Funds investing in Property. It was Clever Financiers eeking out the last 1/10th of a penny on trillion pound deals, needing somewhere to reinvest.

High Streets FULL of banks, Building Societies with large posters selling teaser deals, it was Constant TV advertising, ramping and pushing the "dont miss out" message.

People were AFRAID that they were missing out. And to prove it all, the inexorable rise in prices was PROOF that indeed, they would have to buy now or forever be a second class citizen.

MSE in particular, encouraged people to get cheaper and cheaper mortgages, and at the same time, encourage people to pay as little as possible for goods...forcing suppliers to outsource to cheaper places in the search for profit.

At the height of the credit boom, things were never cheaper, houses a sure fire thing, the MINDSET of the majority was CHANGED to debt is good debt is an investment, and you couldnt fail...HAIL the NULAB Golden Rules...Prudence?? yes thats what they said, but Prudence was dead and buried.

We have had the credit feast... the Government are trying to serve coffee and biscuits, but not telling us that they cost £50 per portion, not the £4.50 it says on the menu. The lights are dimming and we have no energy to walk to the door, waiting and demanding the staff carry us home.

Boy, the Hangover is going to hurt.

EXCELLENT summary of the way things are. B)

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Well, there is the effect of the media, but i think the simple, easily observable FACT that all the surpluses were appearing in real estate price was far more convincing. People were trapped somewhat in a dilemma - they could either get on the real estate gravy train (become a 'winner') or fall down the tunnel of rising costs it was creating.

Most people had (and still have) absolutely no idea about the macroeconomic drivers of real estate prices. I have lots of friends, none of whom I would class as stupid. When I try to explain to them what happened, their eyes glaze over. They seem unable to comprehend it. They can't even grasp that our money is debt - they STILL think banks have endless billions of cash in their vaults, even though we had a very well publicised bank run a few of years ago.

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Most people had (and still have) absolutely no idea about the macroeconomic drivers of real estate prices. I have lots of friends, none of whom I would class as stupid. When I try to explain to them what happened, their eyes glaze over. They seem unable to comprehend it. They can't even grasp that our money is debt - they STILL think banks have endless billions of cash in their vaults, even though we had a very well publicised bank run a few of years ago.

what the eyes and ears see, the brain beleives. it is the very key to a successful scam.

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There is absolutely no progress whatsoever that can be directly attributed to capitalism. Most progress is down to scientific advancement, and that is largely funded by socialism.

Don't be daft. No doubt there are areas of research which get a lot of government money, but R&D spending by businesses large and small is massive and all around us.

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This is the bottom line. People need to take responsibility for this fecking disaster. All the insecure dirt who wanted that X5 and shitty new build, even though they were basically poor, need to take a look at themselves.

The banks are scum, but, they had a regular supply of fecking idiot punters who were desperate to sign up for that mortgage or loan for a crap kitchen, hoping to look wealthy when really they were all just peasents that the banks laughed at.

This is the truth of the situation. 95% of the western worlds population should be put out of their misery IMO. Fecking grunts that are, now going to be the cannon fodder for the banks.

Oh dear!!

By that rational, savers should take responsibility for trusting the banks with their money (or the government to regulate/guarantee).

No one was forced to deposit their cash in the bank, nor leave it their if paid in directly.

Clearly, people trusted the regulators and the guarantees, but the government caused this lack of personal responsibility by telling everyone that their money was good and safe. It wasn't. I doubt they could ever regulate or guarantee the safety of money, but clearly the government has made matters worse by offering this false promise.

Unless you tighten up bankruptcy laws, to force more repayment, savers are going to be hit one way or another when loans go bad.

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Science is the expensive theoretical bit that R+D turns into products to sell.

I guess the likes of Intel are just twiddling their thumbs then and the computer you are typing on was mostly funded by the government. Correct?

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Most people had (and still have) absolutely no idea about the macroeconomic drivers of real estate prices. I have lots of friends, none of whom I would class as stupid. When I try to explain to them what happened, their eyes glaze over. They seem unable to comprehend it. They can't even grasp that our money is debt - they STILL think banks have endless billions of cash in their vaults, even though we had a very well publicised bank run a few of years ago.

Then again, why should they have to be experts in a gigantic mountain of useless bull-shitery in order to be left alone? It is a tragedy that people have to make life crippling speculations in a horrendously destructive, risky and difficult asset market just to get pretty their natural right to be left alone. We don’t need yet more ‘experts’ in real estate; we need political / economic reform and people who can add value

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I guess the likes of Intel are just twiddling their thumbs then and the computer you are typing on was mostly funded by the government. Correct?

the number of years it took to get the system to work smoothly without crashing every 5 mins...id say there was very strong evidence of just such a funding and control.

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I guess the likes of Intel are just twiddling their thumbs then and the computer you are typing on was mostly funded by the government. Correct?

It is always impossible to determine who invented what and when.

The founder of Intel, credited with "inventing" the microchip didn't actually come up with the idea.

He improved upon a concept invented by the a worker in the British MOD.

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Just read what I wrote will you.

You seem to be implying that more money is spent on the science than the R&D and product development. I'd like to see some figures to back that up as it seems extremely unlikely to me. I'm certain that plenty of science gets done as part of R&D at these firms too.

Additionally, are you suggesting that less science would be done if there was no socialism? Do you have any historical evidence to back this up?

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  • 259 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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