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Are People Really So Stupid?

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Guest absolutezero

Just seen people on the news moaning about the massive tax on petrol and how in America it's about 1/4 of the price (cheap petrol, but don't get ill because the doctors won't treat you unless you flash your chequebook at them) and how the tax here should be reduced.

Don't they realise that if Gordon Brown cut petrol tax he'd just get the money from somewhere else?

Are people really so short sighted? 10p in the pound more on income tax anyone?

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According to this link Americans drive twice as many miles each year as Europeans and a car is more essential in everyday life. So if twice as much fuel is bought at half our price then surely they don't spend any less than us on fuel.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04152/324817.stm

Good point, I drive 40 miles per day and I have to say if petrol was 1/2 as much I would drive via stansted just to take up the slack. Errr my head hurts.

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Just seen people on the news moaning about the massive tax on petrol and how in America it's about 1/4 of the price (cheap petrol, but don't get ill because the doctors won't treat you unless you flash your chequebook at them)

Lol, most working people could get very extensive private medical cover for the cost of NI contributions, quite a few companies offer this as a benefit in the UK anyway.

Most yanks see no difference between paying National Insurance and hoping the govt manage (mismanage?) their healthcare and just paying for private medical cover. If anything they see the demand side rationing (waiting lists) of the former outweigh the less egalitarian issues with the latter.

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Lol, most working people could get very extensive private medical cover for the cost of NI contributions, quite a few companies offer this as a benefit in the UK anyway.

Most yanks see no difference between paying National Insurance and hoping the govt manage (mismanage?) their healthcare and just paying for private medical cover. If anything they see the demand side rationing (waiting lists) of the former outweigh the less egalitarian issues with the latter.

National Insurance doesn't really cover heathcare (neither does it pay your State pension when you retire) and road tax doesn't actually pay for the upkeep of roads.

All the cash just goes into one big pot and then handed out as GB sees fit.

What I'm trying to get at is GB doesn't care HOW he gets his money so long as he gets it one way or another.

Even with a cut in fuel duty we'd not be any better off.

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National Insurance doesn't really cover heathcare (neither does it pay your State pension when you retire) and road tax doesn't actually pay for the upkeep of roads.

All the cash just goes into one big pot and then handed out as GB sees fit.

Well indeed, NI was never really hypothecated and there is no pensions pot, it just gets paid out of the main budget (aka, a pyramid scheme).

Even so, though NI doesn't pay for the NHS it would still buy you very nice private medical cover if you have a choice on where you could pay it.

Technically the cost of road maintainence and public transport (£7b and falling) is just about covered by the road fund alone (£6b and rising), the other £32b generated by duty and VAT on the duty does straight in the pot.

I'm not down on the NHS, however given its second world status I don't think we're in a position to boast or lecture the US on such matters.

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I'm not down on the NHS, however given its second world status I don't think we're in a position to boast or lecture the US on such matters.

I seem to recall a ranking of world health systems by the World Health Organisation, about 2 years ago or so...

They ranked the UK's health system 18th in the world, and the US's about 35th

(of course 1st being the best)

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my gripe as a haulier is not that we pay more than the US but that we pay 20% more for diesel than people in the EU..........(Petrol there is as dear as here!)

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my gripe as a haulier is not that we pay more than the US but that we pay 20% more for diesel than people in the EU..........(Petrol there is as dear as here!)

Then put your prices up and past the cost on, this will do wonders for the inflation figures. If you can't pass the costs on then there is something deeply dysfunctional within your industry, such as too much over capacity, in which case the industry would benefit in the longterm if a few companies went to the wall. Nearly every industry has been subject to painful restructuring over the years, I don't see why the haulage/logistics industry is any different.

Whether you like it or not the government is 'democratically elected' (well, 45% of those who turned up), the fuel lobby is not by any means, if the government buckled to any old bunch of angry malcontents where would it end? You can't run a country like that, it's like the bad old days of the 70's.

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Just seen people on the news moaning about the massive tax on petrol and how in America it's about 1/4 of the price (cheap petrol, but don't get ill because the doctors won't treat you unless you flash your chequebook at them) and how the tax here should be reduced.

Don't they realise that if Gordon Brown cut petrol tax he'd just get the money from somewhere else?

Are people really so short sighted?  10p in the pound more on income tax anyone?

Yes, they are! Unfortunately!

It baffles me as well! :blink:

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According to this link Americans drive twice as many miles each year as Europeans and a car is more essential in everyday life. So if twice as much fuel is bought at half our price then surely they don't spend any less than us on fuel.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04152/324817.stm

I live about 65 miles away from our office, 130+ miles per day and yes I would move closer but choose not to as I know it pisses off that silly fat ****** prescott because I burn more fuel than his entire fleet of jags

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Just seen people on the news moaning about the massive tax on petrol and how in America it's about 1/4 of the price (cheap petrol, but don't get ill because the doctors won't treat you unless you flash your chequebook at them) and how the tax here should be reduced.

Don't they realise that if Gordon Brown cut petrol tax he'd just get the money from somewhere else?

Are people really so short sighted?  10p in the pound more on income tax anyone?

It is not that people are stupid. The argument is that as petrol price paid by consumers includes VAT, any rises in the petrol prices also result in corresponding increase in the VAT the government receives. Therefore, the government is getting something of a windfall from the increase VAT revenues. This is in addition to the increased tax income the government will recieve from oil companies. Maybe the increase in fuel prices do not affect you too much, but there are many people who need to drive to work who will no doubt be feeling the pinch from the increased prices at the pump. The amount of mileage people need to cover is not likely to change too much in relation to their income. Therefore, it is probably people with lower incomes who are suffering the most from this spike in oil prices.

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Then put your prices up and past the cost on, this will do wonders for the inflation figures. If you can't pass the costs on then there is something deeply dysfunctional within your industry, such as too much over capacity, in which case the industry would benefit in the longterm if a few companies went to the wall. Nearly every industry has been subject to painful restructuring over the years, I don't see why the haulage/logistics industry is any different.

Whether you like it or not the government is 'democratically elected' (well, 45% of those who turned up), the fuel lobby is not by any means, if the government buckled to any old bunch of angry malcontents where would it end? You can't run a country like that, it's like the bad old days of the 70's.

the problem is that if the prices were pushed up to accomodate the cost of fuel then those needing stuff delivered would just use continental comapnies who fuel their trucks up befor they even get here. a continental company doesn't touch a filling station while in GB - it's too bloody expensive.

the fuel is a basic raw material for hauliers and they can't compete on a very fundament level with european hauliers for business. it's not the fact that the tax is high on it's own. it's the fact that the high tax stops them getting the work in the first place, as they have to incorprate it into quotes etc.

if GB had half a brain he'd offer a rebate to hauliers and then introduce a hauliers industry tax all of it's own - to claw the tax back. this would head off these protests in the first place.

on another topic, Tony Blah got in with just 36% of the vote!

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It is not that people are stupid.    The argument is that as petrol price paid by consumers includes VAT, any rises in the petrol prices also result in corresponding increase in the VAT the government receives.  Therefore, the government is getting something of a windfall from the increase VAT revenues.  This is in addition to the increased tax income the government will recieve from oil companies.  Maybe the increase in fuel prices do not affect you too much, but there are many people who need to drive to work who will no doubt be feeling the pinch from the increased prices at the pump.  The amount of mileage people need to cover is not likely to change too much in relation to their income.  Therefore, it is probably people with lower incomes who are suffering the most from this spike in oil prices.

there's no public transport available to me, even at 14mpg (US) I'm still not prepared to change my vehicle.

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Just seen people on the news moaning about the massive tax on petrol and how in America it's about 1/4 of the price (cheap petrol, but don't get ill because the doctors won't treat you unless you flash your chequebook at them) and how the tax here should be reduced.

Don't they realise that if Gordon Brown cut petrol tax he'd just get the money from somewhere else?

we should take more tax from the oil companies who make obcene profits from our oil in the north sea. we've got our own oil and our own refineries,people seem to forget this ! :unsure:

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the problem is that if the prices were pushed up to accomodate the cost of fuel then those needing stuff delivered would just use continental comapnies who fuel their trucks up befor they even get here. a continental company doesn't touch a filling station while in GB - it's too bloody expensive.

There's nothing stopping you from doing what they're doing, lots of hauliers travel to Holland to fuel up, whilst not ideal remember that a Polish firm has to cover greater distances.

As you know they were planning a road charging scheme for foreign companies, but it has now been scrapped, which doesn't seem right on the surface but it would cost UK tax payers more to administrate than it would generate in revenue. Also, once they've got a system up and running it's only a matter of time until it's extended to UK companies, if challenged then EU law may have required this, another reason for dropping it.

For a moment though ask yourself what makes your industry special? Obviously it's your industry but what about the chap running the workshop down the road, can he expect a rebate from the govt if he experiences a bit of a lean month?

What about another firm struggingly to pay higher electricity or heating costs, or industrial energy users like cement factories or steel foundries struggling with crippling rises in wholesale costs that cannot be passed onto the world market? Take electricity generating companies, until recently they were haemoraging cash due to low wholesale rates, British Energy basically collapsed.

You should count yourself lucky that your industry is ultimately geographically restricted and therefore protected, you may not like Polish competition for example but count yourself lucky that you don't have to compete with Chinese manufacturers producing goods for 10% of equivalent UK costs. And you think you've got it hard.

Where does the government intervention and bailing out end? That's what it is. History has taught us that when government intervenes in markets it ends in tears, if not bankrupting the country in the process (think Callaghan having to beg the IMF)

Once a government is perceived as being weak and cowardly they lose all respect and all sorts of people with any sort of minor grievance will try it on, the unions derived their power through this and that ended with the winter of discontent.

No matter how much you agree with their point there is no getting away from the fact that the fuel lobbyists are nothing but unelected vilgilantes. What if a bunch of environmental protesters who believe they have a righteous cause blockade various haulage depots up and down the country, would you expect the police to enforce the rights to your private property and your right to make a living?

on another topic, Tony Blah got in with just 36% of the vote!

Yeah, but my figure included postal ballots :) (must be the 2001 one).

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Lol, most working people could get very extensive private medical cover for the cost of NI contributions, quite a few companies offer this as a benefit in the UK anyway.

Most yanks see no difference between paying National Insurance and hoping the govt manage (mismanage?) their healthcare and just paying for private medical cover. If anything they see the demand side rationing (waiting lists) of the former outweigh the less egalitarian issues with the latter.

What "most yanks" are you talking about? We have a health care crisis right now. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 45 million Americans have no health insurance. And according to another recent report, 15 million of those uninsured adults--non-elderly ones, mind you--have a chronic health problem, such as diabetes or asthma. And you think Americans wouldn't prefer national health insurance--even with waiting lines--to no medical care?????? Have you ever been to the emergency room of a large county hospital and seen the waiting lines there as the uninsured arrive because they had no place else to go?

I'm an extremely healthy, physically active middle-aged American woman with no chronic ailments and on no medications who has to fork out $450 dollars monthly on health insurance, just to have a safety net in case I get hit by a truck or am unexpectedly diagnosed with cancer. I also pay out another $400 for health insurance for my healthy 22-year-old son, who isn't insured through his work. (More and more American companies are dropping health insurance for their employees.) How many people can afford to pay what I do? Not many.

We need universal health insurance and we need it now. So often these days people who are comfortably off--they have a job, health insurance, a roof over their heads, and, most importantly, their health--can't seem to imagine what it would be like to not have been so fortunate. And yes, I do mean fortunate. Fortunate not to have a mental illness, for example, or to give birth to a child with special needs.

Half of all bankruptcies in the U.S., for Christ's sake, are for health-related debts!!!

I just don't understand why people don't have more empathy for others.

End of rant.

Edited by Yankee

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we should take more tax from the oil companies who make obcene profits from our oil in the north sea. we've got our own oil and our own refineries,people seem to forget this ! :unsure:

So we should betrate the oil industry for not investing enough in infrastructure, like refineries at £30 billion a piece, loved by nimby's and tree huggers alike, whilst simultaneously robbing them because they have the audacity to make a profit and single handedly make up over 20% of the FTSE100 index thus bailing out everyone's pension fund in the process?

Look at the North Sea and existing windfall taxes, Brown has been treating the oil industry as a piggy bank since at least 2002.

Hrm, who to blame, a company that has spend billions on the off chance they may find some reserves, then drill, extract, process, transport, refine, transport again, then retail for the gross revenue of 20p per litre (all of the above costs then have to come out of that figure). Meanwhile HM Tresury walk away with over 60p per litre for not doing very much.

If you ask me where my sympathies lie it would be with the company that has to deal with all sorts of unstable regimes and uncertainties in the most dangerious parts of the world whilst acting as an unpaid taxman.

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Just seen people on the news moaning about the massive tax on petrol and how in America it's about 1/4 of the price (cheap petrol, but don't get ill because the doctors won't treat you unless you flash your chequebook at them) and how the tax here should be reduced.

Don't they realise that if Gordon Brown cut petrol tax he'd just get the money from somewhere else?

we should take more tax from the oil companies who make obcene profits from our oil in the north sea. we've got our own oil and our own refineries,people seem to forget this ! :unsure:

Yes the Oil companies you refer to (Shell and BP presumably) make "obscene" profits?? Do you think they operate solely in the North Sea???? The UK Sector makes up a smaller (and ever dwindling) proportion of their income. It is only that these companies are "British" (or Anglo Dutch in the case of Shell) that they maintain a presence in the North Sea, if they really could they'd get out like a shot, it's over regulated and too unionised. But I ask you, which two companies took the biggest risk in the 1960's beginning exploration to open up the North Sea?? (Yes BP and Shell), How much corporation tax do they pay (although Blair with his headteacher act in 2000, pissed Shell off, so now for Tax purposes they are now 100% Dutch, so the cloggies now get more of the tax-good one Tony, you ******!!!)?? How much Tax do they pay for the Oil produced from the North Sea, BEFORE the money goes into the pot?? How many job's do they create, directly and indirectly (try looking around Aberdeen)?? With a lot of British Staff, they export a lot of skills and technology abroad. Their staff are on the whole very well paid, so contribute to the pot in PAYE and NI a hell of a lot, and more importantly, they are both propping up the FTSE so are VITAL for your pensions!! Take the two out of the FTSE and your pensions would be COMPLETELY FOOKED instead of just POTENTIALLY FOOKED.

It is typical of the British "Chip on Shoulder" attitude that we have two companies that lead the way worldwide (Especially BP who in terms of operational efficiency lead the world's oil companies), yet we knock them down because they are successful!!!! Maybe we should all have shite companies and live in a soviet style economy where good performance goes unheeded/unrewarded-we all saw what happened there

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What "most yanks" are you talking about? We have a health care crisis right now. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 45 million Americans have no health insurance. And according to another recent report, 15 million of those uninsured adults--non-elderly ones, mind you--have a chronic health problem, such as diabetes or asthma. And you think Americans wouldn't prefer national health insurance--even with waiting lines--to no medical care?????? Have you ever been to the emergency room of a large county hospital and seen the waiting lines there as the uninsured arrive because they had no place else to go?

I'm an extremely healthy, physically active middle-aged American woman with no chronic ailments and on no medications who has to fork out $450 dollars monthly on health insurance, just to have a safety net in case I get hit by a truck or am unexpectedly diagnosed with cancer. I also pay out another $400 for health insurance for my healthy 22-year-old son, who isn't insured through his work. (More and more American companies are dropping health insurance for their employees.) How many people can afford to pay what I do?  Not many.

We need universal health insurance and we need it now. So often these days people who are comfortably off--they have a job, health insurance, a roof over their heads, and, most importantly, their health--can't seem to imagine what it would be like to not have been so fortunate. And yes, I do mean fortunate. Fortunate not to have a mental illness, for example, or to give birth to a child with special needs.

Half of all bankruptcies in the U.S., for Christ's sake, are for health-related debts!!!

I just don't understand why people don't have more empathy for others.

End of rant.

I don't know about your area, but we also wait months for well checks, once my doctor even had a waitng list, for his waiting list.

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I'm an extremely healthy, physically active middle-aged American woman with no chronic ailments and on no medications who has to fork out $450 dollars monthly on health insurance, just to have a safety net in case I get hit by a truck or am unexpectedly diagnosed with cancer. I also pay out another $400 for health insurance for my healthy 22-year-old son, who isn't insured through his work.

And you think universal health is free and all milk and honey? The money has to come from somewhere, it's just a matter of how it's best allocated. Compulsory National Insurance contributions on an 'average' UK wage of £25K ($45k) amount to £2,229 ($4077) so that amounts to $340 per month for a low wage earner. Btw, there is another $8000 per annum of additional tax to come out of that too. That by no means covers the NHS budget, that comes out of all other sorts of things like 17.5% purchase tax or petrol at $7 per US gallon for example.

Once you take above average earnings (or even a working couple) the additional NI costs and 40% tax band really starts to kick in, your private medical insurance is a real bargain. Our prescription drugs aren't free either (if you're working), and no free dentistry of course.

At least you have the certainty of receiving help or are able switch providers if you're unhappy with the sort of service you recieve, if god forbid you get hit by a truck or diagnosed a serious disease you will recieve treatment in a fashion at least assoiated with the first world. In our system if you want any semblence of service you're blackmailed into 'going private' where you basically pay again at US levels to use the same NHS doctors and hospital facilities you've already paid for, you just get to see them a bit quicker.

Our wonderful service aspires to see people within 4 HOURS of arriving in the ER, note that target isn't a minimum across the service, lots of hospitals would dearly love to live up to that 'apsiration'. I have waited over 6 hours when I had misfortune of going there, other people are just left overnight, it's not unusual to walk in at 7am and walk out when it's dark. In other cases they leave people outside in the carpark to rig the figures, the clock doesn't start until you're in the building... so they leave you outside the building.

When you're in the hospital there's all sorts of nasty suprises.

Do you know what they mean by a universal service? :-

Cancer patients 'denied key drug'

Dying woman denied new 'wonder' drug

MS patients 'denied drug'

Patients denied new generation of drugs

Cancelled operations soar

Complaints over GP appointments still await a cure

Looming £68m debt forces NHS cuts

First cut is the deepest

NHS waiting lists growing again

Scandal of waiting list 'cheating'

[ad nauseum day after day]

Again, I'm not down on the NHS it has the very best of intentions and ideals, it tries its best but that doesn't change the fact it's totally overloaded and eternally unfunded and therefore things are left lacking. Sometimes the best of utilitarian principles can harm everyone.

No doubt there are similar horror stories in the US, but on balance I would be quite content paying your $400 if I were you.

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So we should betrate the oil industry for not investing enough in infrastructure, like refineries at £30 billion a piece, loved by nimby's and tree huggers alike, whilst simultaneously robbing them because they have the audacity to make a profit and single handedly make up over 20% of the FTSE100 index thus bailing out everyone's pension fund in the process?

Look at the North Sea and existing windfall taxes, Brown has been treating the oil industry as a piggy bank since at least 2002.

Hrm, who to blame, a company that has spend billions on the off chance they may find some reserves, then drill, extract, process, transport, refine, transport again, then retail for the gross revenue of 20p per litre (all of the above costs then have to come out of that figure). Meanwhile HM Tresury walk away with over 60p per litre for not doing very much.

If you ask me where my sympathies lie it would be with the company that has to deal with all sorts of unstable regimes and uncertainties in the most dangerious parts of the world whilst acting as an unpaid taxman.

Buying bear, my points exactly!! And rodgerthedodger, "We" do not have our own refineries-the oil companies built them, not the taxpayer. And just to let you know how out of your depth you are, it is not unknown for an exploration well in the North Sea to cost up to 25 million and yield nothing. The oil companies don't bleat, it's the way of the world, get over it and celebrate the fact that there is something us Brits can show the rest of the world how to do it.

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There's nothing stopping you from doing what they're doing, lots of hauliers travel to Holland to fuel up, whilst not ideal remember that a Polish firm has to cover greater distances.

i'm not a haulier, i just agree and sympathise with what they are saying. although it is a bl00dy waste to be going to holland to fill up if that's not your destination.

As you know they were planning a road charging scheme for foreign companies, but it has now been scrapped, which doesn't seem right on the surface but it would cost UK tax payers more to administrate than it would generate in revenue. Also, once they've got a system up and running it's only a matter of time until it's extended to UK companies, if challenged then EU law may have required this, another reason for dropping it.

yes typical half-@rse scheme this government is getting itself a name for. instead of a useful rebate on fuel to get operating costs lower, and then grab it back once the company had successfully completed the resulting contracts they thought ' i know lets just charge those foreign bugg3rs. that's what we do innit? just charge people when we have a problem.' not only do they announce it without thinking about it, they then find it may contravene eu law! if it wasn't so bad it'd be funny. the hauliers can't get the work because of high initial costs. the job then goes to hauliage firms from outside of uk who don't pay full tax here and the money goes out of the country. uk firms are already registering their head offices in small eu countries (holland, belgium etc) and so we are simply losing out.

For a moment though ask yourself what makes your industry special? Obviously it's your industry but what about the chap running the workshop down the road, can he expect a rebate from the govt if he experiences a bit of a lean month?

if you read the post fully you'll see i proposed clawing it back in an industry specific tax on the profits. if the firms do better there'll be more tax to be had. nothing to do with lean months or anything like that.

What about another firm struggingly to pay higher electricity or heating costs, or industrial energy users like cement factories or steel foundries struggling with crippling rises in wholesale costs that cannot be passed onto the world market? Take electricity generating companies, until recently they were haemoraging cash due to low wholesale rates, British Energy basically collapsed.

the electricity generation companies had a bought of fighting within themselves that led to the price going down. this wasn't due to prices being undercut by some ultra-cheap polish import electricity. it was a british market led excercise. this is not a good comparison with the truckers.

You should count yourself lucky that your industry is ultimately geographically restricted and therefore protected, you may not like Polish competition for example but count yourself lucky that you don't have to compete with Chinese manufacturers producing goods for 10% of equivalent UK costs. And you think you've got it hard.

As i'm not actually in the trucking industry but infact in the electronics industry therefore i'm not actually lucky, or protected and yes i do have it hard. You are falling for the fallacy that we UK cannot compete with chinese cost base when in fact we can. i recently worked for a major worldwide electronics manufacturer who had plants in uk germany and china (have many more but have named these 3 as they are spacific to the example). the company had overproduction in the world and needed to scale back production. china had a cost-per-box of $47. germany had a cpb of $60 and uk a cpb of $40. 15% cheaper! gasp, shock-horror, uk beats china on cost. same units made with same amount people. uk arm has higher cost base but BETTER WORKERS. each person made more units each than those in china. this is what comes from a higher educated workforce. i suggest you go and look up china's general manufacturing methods. this is where we beat them. we were still made redundant due to it being harder to make germans redundant than brits. accountants can't see past the figures, see.

Where does the government intervention and bailing out end? That's what it is. History has taught us that when government intervenes in markets it ends in tears, if not bankrupting the country in the process (think Callaghan having to beg the IMF)

you mentioned British Energy - THE GOVERNMENT BAILED THEM OUT! what did history treat us then? that the argument fits when it suits them.

see past the shite will ya? this is not bailling out or giving money to. it is merely allowing the truckers to compete on a levelled out playing field with the rest of the world. it is the governments responsibility to do what it can to ALLOW companies to COMPETE, not just hand them the dosh.

Once a government is perceived as being weak and cowardly they lose all respect and all sorts of people with any sort of minor grievance will try it on, the unions derived their power through this and that ended with the winter of discontent.

we all know we are being shafted and yet we do nothing. don't go on about this is a democracy and you can vote yadda yadda. this gov has got in with the lowest share in the vote in history due to it's political gerrymandering. it has been systematically chipping away at the balancing powers in this country and King Tony no longer consults parliament on anything he doesn't want to. this is not like the 70's where it was tried on for any little thing at all - these guys have a real grievance. this government IS weak and cowardly but they get away with it because of a large political majority of those who enjoy the trappings and benefits of being in power. MP's serve the country - don't make me laugh.

No matter how much you agree with their point there is no getting away from the fact that the fuel lobbyists are nothing but unelected vilgilantes. What if a bunch of environmental protesters who believe they have a righteous cause blockade various haulage depots up and down the country, would you expect the police to enforce the rights to your private property and your right to make a living?

i didn't know we had elected vigilantes never mind unelected ones. why don't the police force the rail-workers to work or the air-traffic control or the baggage handlers. it's all a form of protest. these truckers are seeking to PROTECT THEIR OWN LIVELIHOODS, not some greater-good greeny agenda.

the cops should have nothing to do with this unless it gets to the point where people are getting hurt physically - not just not having to walk to the shops. this is a political problem, not a law and order one. we have a government taking away people's right to protest. taking away a truckers licence because they protest is a disgrace. every institution that is here for service of this country is systematically being turned into a political tool to be used for it's own ends by this government - it's a damned police state. i hope you don't try and use ambulances and fire engines running out of fuel last time ( or this time) cos that was a lie as well.

Yeah, but my figure included postal ballots  :)  (must be the 2001 one).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vot...ies/default.stm

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • up 5%



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