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Toto deVeer

Silver Bullets For Jp Morgan

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Will these guys (not J P Morgan) disappear when gold and silver collapse? I mean they have pinned their career entirely on precious metals investment...Not a safe thing to do, and I sense that the tide is turning...

I guess if I were a betting man, I'd bet on J P Morgan...

And I don't want to return to a gold standard, no thank you. Keiser/Goldsmith hedge fund KarmaBanque, Goldsmith with links to the Rothschild family, and I wonder who controls the gold? Kind of like leading the turkeys to Thanksgiving?

Hmmmm....

Sorry to be so cynical, but that very last thing this world needs is another gold standard. I'd rather have money backed by Wampum, if we really need some useless material to handle.

By the way, Wampum, or sea shells, made an excellent medium of exchange in New England for over 100 years. When the Dutch colonists appeared on the shores of Manhattan in 1609, the Indians there wouldn't accept their gold and silver coin; the Dutch could only trade with Wampum, and they had to work or trade useful goods to get it, not those worthless pieces of metal.

In fact, the southeast corner of present Exchange and Broad streets, was sold by Nicasius De Sille to Captain Thomas de la Valle in 1672 for 3,000 guilders Wampum. This location today, is in the bosom of the Wall Street Exchange; The Federal Reserve Bank and Goldman Sachs are not far away.

What makes a metals backed currency so dangerous is that its supply would be more easily controlled by a few individuals that we currently see today. What made Wampum so good a medium, was that the Indians who controlled it were relatively lazy, so they did not produce too much of it (even though it was relatively abundant), and it was only exchanged for real, tangible goods. It maintained it's value well, until some enterprising colonists found that they could make it themselves. Even so, it only declined by about 50% over 100 years, whereas the dollar, by comparison, has declined by 95% during the last 100 years.

You could say that Wampum was one of the original credit-based currencies (as compared to todays debt currencies), in that it was only issued in exchange for goods produced. So I vote for a new Wampum backed currency. Forget this useless gold stuff.

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Will these guys (not J P Morgan) disappear when gold and silver collapse? I mean they have pinned their career entirely on precious metals investment...Not a safe thing to do, and I sense that the tide is turning...

I guess if I were a betting man, I'd bet on J P Morgan...

And I don't want to return to a gold standard, no thank you. Keiser/Goldsmith hedge fund KarmaBanque, Goldsmith with links to the Rothschild family, and I wonder who controls the gold? Kind of like leading the turkeys to Thanksgiving?

Hmmmm....

Sorry to be so cynical, but that very last thing this world needs is another gold standard. I'd rather have money backed by Wampum, if we really need some useless material to handle.

By the way, Wampum, or sea shells, made an excellent medium of exchange in New England for over 100 years. When the Dutch colonists appeared on the shores of Manhattan in 1609, the Indians there wouldn't accept their gold and silver coin; the Dutch could only trade with Wampum, and they had to work or trade useful goods to get it, not those worthless pieces of metal.

In fact, the southeast corner of present Exchange and Broad streets, was sold by Nicasius De Sille to Captain Thomas de la Valle in 1672 for 3,000 guilders Wampum. This location today, is in the bosom of the Wall Street Exchange; The Federal Reserve Bank and Goldman Sachs are not far away.

What makes a metals backed currency so dangerous is that its supply would be more easily controlled by a few individuals that we currently see today. What made Wampum so good a medium, was that the Indians who controlled it were relatively lazy, so they did not produce too much of it (even though it was relatively abundant), and it was only exchanged for real, tangible goods. It maintained it's value well, until some enterprising colonists found that they could make it themselves. Even so, it only declined by about 50% over 100 years, whereas the dollar, by comparison, has declined by 95% during the last 100 years.

You could say that Wampum was one of the original credit-based currencies (as compared to todays debt currencies), in that it was only issued in exchange for goods produced. So I vote for a new Wampum backed currency. Forget this useless gold stuff.

White man speak with forked tongue.

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This is the same Max Keisner that all the goldbugs on here rave about?

Someone who talks about gold going to infinity an whether the dollar will survive?

What did Red Kharma say - the gold bugs will get creamed for exactly the reason they think they won't?

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The rumour on the street, is that the CME metal exchange have raised margin requirements twice within a week, which could signal some sort of endgame soon.

Gold, silver could crash or go to the moon! Exciting times.

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The rumour on the street, is that the CME metal exchange have raised margin requirements twice within a week, which could signal some sort of endgame soon.

What does mean in English for a numpty like myself?

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This is the same Max Keisner that all the goldbugs on here rave about?

Someone who talks about gold going to infinity an whether the dollar will survive?

What did Red Kharma say - the gold bugs will get creamed for exactly the reason they think they won't?

Keiser is paid by Russia (Putin) today.

He's say what they pay him to say, like any other propoganda mouthpiece.

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It maintained it's value well, until some enterprising colonists found that they could make it themselves.

The Dutch mass produced it. It was the labour in it that had value otherwise they would have traded the unadultered shells.

Golden nuggets are traded and I can't see any miners ramping up production of gold any time soon.

Can you find anyone enterprising to "make it themselves"?

Anyway I'm off to the beach to make myself a killing.

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Will these guys (not J P Morgan) disappear when gold and silver collapse? I mean they have pinned their career entirely on precious metals investment...Not a safe thing to do, and I sense that the tide is turning...

I guess if I were a betting man, I'd bet on J P Morgan...

And I don't want to return to a gold standard, no thank you. Keiser/Goldsmith hedge fund KarmaBanque, Goldsmith with links to the Rothschild family, and I wonder who controls the gold? Kind of like leading the turkeys to Thanksgiving?

Hmmmm....

Sorry to be so cynical, but that very last thing this world needs is another gold standard. I'd rather have money backed by Wampum, if we really need some useless material to handle.

By the way, Wampum, or sea shells, made an excellent medium of exchange in New England for over 100 years. When the Dutch colonists appeared on the shores of Manhattan in 1609, the Indians there wouldn't accept their gold and silver coin; the Dutch could only trade with Wampum, and they had to work or trade useful goods to get it, not those worthless pieces of metal.

In fact, the southeast corner of present Exchange and Broad streets, was sold by Nicasius De Sille to Captain Thomas de la Valle in 1672 for 3,000 guilders Wampum. This location today, is in the bosom of the Wall Street Exchange; The Federal Reserve Bank and Goldman Sachs are not far away.

What makes a metals backed currency so dangerous is that its supply would be more easily controlled by a few individuals that we currently see today. What made Wampum so good a medium, was that the Indians who controlled it were relatively lazy, so they did not produce too much of it (even though it was relatively abundant), and it was only exchanged for real, tangible goods. It maintained it's value well, until some enterprising colonists found that they could make it themselves. Even so, it only declined by about 50% over 100 years, whereas the dollar, by comparison, has declined by 95% during the last 100 years.

You could say that Wampum was one of the original credit-based currencies (as compared to todays debt currencies), in that it was only issued in exchange for goods produced. So I vote for a new Wampum backed currency. Forget this useless gold stuff.

Goldbugs are just as greedy and self interested as socialists and Keynesians

There's a logic to holding gold in these circumstance and I own some metals myself but a gold standard monetary system is a different ball game.

Too much of it is owned and controlled by the same money power people who got us into this mess in the first place.

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White man speak with forked tongue.

:lol::lol:

Can you imagine the expression on the faces of those Dutchmen, having arrived at the shores of an untamed and primitive continent populated by 'savages', and discovering they already had a currency, would not accept gold and silver in any amount?

Hahahahaha....

From the 1930's History of Manhattan:

Probably none of the parties involved had ever heard of Gresham's Law; nevertheless, the bad wampum drove out the good wampum, which was hoarded, the the best of it going into tribal treasuries to be saved against sovereign needs. European coinage, and to some extent beaver skins circulating as bank notes do now, at a value of about three dollars, took the place of shells in the ordinary transactions of commerce. Gresham's Law appears to be two-edged; bad money drives out good, but when it becomes too utterly bad it is in turn driven out if other money is available. One difficulty of keeping modern currencies in order is that government, having achieved a monopoly of currency, tries to drive competing currencies off the market.

Wampum, like gold, was durable, had artistic possibilities, enjoyed high prestige in international trade, and received religious backing. "In God we trust" still adorns our sequestered golden coins with which the people are no longer trusted. Of wampum it can be said that, until the whites took up the trade, every piece was chipped out with prayer, since the Indian was such a profoundly religious person that his every overt act was done after consulting the Deity. At present our gold, like the Indian wampum, has gone into the national treasury to be used only in international settlements and the higher affairs of state. It is harder for a citizen to see the golden hoard in the Assay Office or the Treasury than it was for the young Indian to behold the wampum treasures of his tribe.

As in the case of gold, wampum's utility as money grew from its decorative effect. Seashells became a fashion; the brave who wore them commended him-self to his sweethearts and his elders. When he boasted, he rattled his wampum as Thackeray's beaux used to chink the gold in their pockets. Also the brave was sure of his estate while he wore it, a point of some importance in a land as yet without strong boxes, banks and title deeds. In everything except personal effects —weapons, clothing and trinkets—communism was the rule. Thus there developed that wide demand for wampum which gave it exchange value, especially in dealings from clan to clan and tribe to tribe. Any workable measure of value must be something which nearly everyone wants badly enough to exchange his time and goods for it in some ratio or other.

Yet wampum had even less utility than gold, which is, of course, one of the less substantial metals. Nothing whatever could be made of shell discs. They could not even be used effectively to tip an arrow or skin a bear. Yet through the magic of a widely accepted idea based on their beauty and convenience, the little pierced shell-discs could accomplish life-or-death deeds. With wampum a tribe lacking flints could buy them and later could get powder and muskets, steel hatchets and firewater, allies and hunting rights. By means of wampum the Indian could equip himself to take scalps, captives and wives. The power of wampum resided, not in the shells themselves, but in the well-nigh universal acceptance of them as beautiful and valuable, an idea which seemed to the whites altogether heathenish. Yet the latter have applied exactly the same test to gold and silver.

The place of these metals in currency systems rests upon the same basis, is part of the same witchery of delight. Gold and silver gave joy to mankind long before either metal was coined into money. The Oriental dancer wearing her fortune in golden and silver bangles and bracelets is far older, as a type, than the gold standard or bimetallism. Call her obsession vanity, call it folly, call it what you will; nevertheless her hoard stands for the fiscal sense of the great trading peoples as far back as the records run. Decide, if you please, that her primitive notion of the supreme value of gold and silver should go into the discard, along with the Indian's misguided faith in seashell discs. Why should a mere style, an airy concept of beauty, hold a machine age so completely in thrall that its wheels must stop grinding out wealth until government can get gold out of common circulation? Are we on all fours with the bangled houri who danced before the Caliphs? Apparently we are. But having admitted all this, what next? Is there a substitute?

As gold passes out of common use and into tribal treasuries, as wampum did, it is clear that its popularity caused more harm than wampum ever did. Both gold and shells served well as measures of value and media of exchange; but the gold addicts of the modern world would not let the matter rest there. They were not satisfied with digging gold from the earth, minting it, and letting it go its way, as the wampum workers were satisfied to pass out their money. An elaborate credit system, backed by law and police power, was raised on the metal base, until ten paper dollars were based on one gold dollar and ten credit dollars were based on one paper dollar. The Indians were not smart enough to make wampum a measure of past and future values as well as of present goods. They lived from day to day, and speculated not; therefore their distresses were caused by famine rather than by plenty.

Because wampum at its best was honest money, it was highly esteemed in international trade just as gold is today. Credit monetary units, somewhat less honest, confound international trade, because each sovereign state has a monopoly of its currency. Whenever one nation wants another nation's currency very badly in-deed and is unwilling to pay gold for it, the buying nation bids more and more units of its own currency against the other currency, up to the limit of public patience with this shortsighted competition. In extreme cases of this nature, generally associated with settling or escaping of war costs, a sovereign state usually voids its debt contracts payable in gold. There is little use in quarreling with this settled habit of government; it has been going on a long time, but not as long as dancers have been wearing bangles.

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Will these guys (not J P Morgan) disappear when gold and silver collapse? I mean they have pinned their career entirely on precious metals investment...Not a safe thing to do, and I sense that the tide is turning...

Gold & Silver collapse.. you do realise that they have been supressing Gold & Silver prices

to help prop up this fiat money illuion world we live in now.

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:lol::lol:

Can you imagine the expression on the faces of those Dutchmen, having arrived at the shores of an untamed and primitive continent populated by 'savages', and discovering they already had a currency, would not accept gold and silver in any amount?

Hahahahaha....

You do read some cr*p.

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Gold & Silver collapse.. you do realise that they have been supressing Gold & Silver prices

to help prop up this fiat money illuion world we live in now.

Go easy on them...

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...

I guess if I were a betting man, I'd bet on J P Morgan...

And I don't want to return to a gold standard, no thank you. Keiser/Goldsmith hedge fund KarmaBanque, Goldsmith with links to the Rothschild family, and I wonder who controls the gold? Kind of like leading the turkeys to Thanksgiving?

Hmmmm....

Sorry to be so cynical, but that very last thing this world needs is another gold standard. I'd rather have money backed by Wampum, if we really need some useless material to handle.

...

Just out of curiousity, have you heard of the tally stick system for revenue collection. Much simple than collecting shells and virtually impossible to forge.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/01/money-101.html

I'll quote Mish to explain why gold became money:

"What motivates monetary demand for gold?

To answer this question one must look back at how gold evolved to become money in the first place. First of all, it always was a commodity with a demand based on its usefulness for creating ornamentation and jewelry, so there was a prior demand for gold that made it useful in barter.

In addition to that, its non-corrosiveness, divisibility, fungibility and easy portability weighed in its favor for use as money. Lastly, its scarcity and the fact that its supply is unlikely to suffer sudden increases, regardless of the wishes of the money issuing authorities, made it a prime candidate to act as a store of value."

I understand that there are problems with gold due to the extreme concentrations of it held by central banks but gold will always be a good long term store of value unlike shells.

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Just out of curiousity, have you heard of the tally stick system for revenue collection. Much simple than collecting shells and virtually impossible to forge.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/01/money-101.html

I'll quote Mish to explain why gold became money:

"What motivates monetary demand for gold?

To answer this question one must look back at how gold evolved to become money in the first place. First of all, it always was a commodity with a demand based on its usefulness for creating ornamentation and jewelry, so there was a prior demand for gold that made it useful in barter.

In addition to that, its non-corrosiveness, divisibility, fungibility and easy portability weighed in its favor for use as money. Lastly, its scarcity and the fact that its supply is unlikely to suffer sudden increases, regardless of the wishes of the money issuing authorities, made it a prime candidate to act as a store of value."

I understand that there are problems with gold due to the extreme concentrations of it held by central banks but gold will always be a good long term store of value unlike shells.

Yes I've read about the Tally stick, that's why in the opening post I was careful to say that Wampum was 'one of the first' (Tally sticks being much earlier, but not coin-like however).

But L Frank Baum's Wizard of Oz was essentially about the gold standard and how it was manipulated to control the US. Would Rome have collapsed as it did if it had another currency? After all, in the end the ruling elite had all the gold, and the average Roman was reduced to serfdom, trading with debased currency, before the barbarians destroyed all.

What I was getting at was the production and control of money is more important than what it is. Because gold can be hoarded by a few, and there is no more of it, it cannot be a good candidate for a currency, or even the backing of a currency.

Edited by Toto deVeer

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What does mean in English for a numpty like myself?

TMT, surprised that no one has answered this. I'll take a stab at it.

For certain investments, like shares, commodities futures, etc, you can buy with credit. So, for example, in shares, you might go to a broker, set up an account, and the broker might leverage your account by letting you only pay partially for you share purchase. This is not so dangerous in most cases because your borrowing is backed by the share value. Then the broker will charge a fee or interest on that borrowing, until you sell the shares.

The futures (commodities and currency) markets traditionally operate this way. It's kind of like an insurance policy, where an industrial company wants to fix a price for, say six months, they will pay a small percentage of that against an order of, say copper, for example. Then when they make something with that copper, they can be sure that the copper will cost X amount in 6 months. On the other side of this industrial trade is a speculator who is prepared to take the bet.

Now gold does not have any industrial use. So it is really a speculative futures activity, So the margin can be raised at will, and it does not affect industrial activity. The regulators can mandate margin amounts at any time. So the CME could say that a margin will be raised from, say 5% to 10% of the value of the underlying commodity, for example.

Now why is this important? Well it is the similar to raising the down payment on a home mortgage. It effectively makes the investment in housing less attractive, and so the price of housing can fall as a result.

If we look at the stock market crash of 1929, the margin to buy shares was only 10% at the time. This meant that the brokers were lending 90% of the share purchase value. When the market started to fall, the brokers who gave this margin rapidly started selling shares before they lost this meagre margin. This, in turn, accelerated selling and caused a panic and collapse. It is said that the loose margin requirement was one of the things that made the stock market boom and then become unstable in the 1920's. And the brokers (really the banks) began increasing their margins just before the crash. It is thought that this is a factor that precipitated the crash.

This is the problem for the goldbugs. Whist most are raving about coin, the actual price is controlled by futures. And because the market has no significant industrial value, the authorities could crash the futures market at any time by raising margins.

I think they have decided to put a ceiling on gold now, and to slowly deflate it. This can be done with margins.

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What does mean in English for a numpty like myself?

I don't know the full details, only heard about it myself the other day, but as far as I know, raising margin requirements has the effect of putting off long speculation in the market and therefore takes the wind out of any up trend.

Also known as BLATANTLY MANIPULATING THE MARKET.

On the positive side it shows that TPTB are resorting to desperate measures to take the heat off their backs, which, while putting downwards pressure on the market, is indicative of where the market is truly headed.

Having said that, as of today I'm out of gold and silver, traded it all in for some seashells. As well as looking pretty, the big ones make a lovely noise when you blow into them too, that's something that stupid old useless gold doesn't do for starters. ;)

EDIT: What Toto said in the post above, cheers Toto. I would beg to differ that this means they can control the price in the longer term. Surely it screams they are losing control of the market and are resorting to dirty tricks to suppress prices. You can't fight reality for ever, especially if the main alternative you are offering is a rapidly debasing currency.

Edited by General Congreve

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Yes I've read about the Tally stick, that's why in the opening post I was careful to say that Wampum was 'one of the first' (Tally sticks being much earlier, but not coin-like however).

But L Frank Baum's Wizard of Oz was essentially about the gold standard and how it was manipulated to control the US. Would Rome have collapsed as it did if it had another currency? After all, in the end the ruling elite had all the gold, and the average Roman was reduced to serfdom, trading with debased currency, before the barbarians destroyed all.

What I was getting at was the production and control of money is more important than what it is. Because gold can be hoarded by a few, and there is no more of it, it cannot be a good candidate for a currency, or even the backing of a currency.

I once heard that if you distributed all money equally in a free-market society, that within a week 90% of the money would be in the hands of 10% of the population. Human nature. Most people don't understand money/wealth and feel compelled to spend whatever they have at any given time due to their cave-man like genes that demand instant gratification. As a caveman you needed all your needs met immediately - water, food, shelter, this is one theory why modern man can have trouble controlling spending supposedly.

Therefore, whatever the monetary standard, the rich will always end up with most of it. Is it any different with fiat?

Now give me my gold standard! ;)

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Goldbugs are just as greedy and self interested as socialists and Keynesians

There's a logic to holding gold in these circumstance and I own some metals myself but a gold standard monetary system is a different ball game.

Too much of it is owned and controlled by the same money power people who got us into this mess in the first place.

Very true. The money power is all pervasive.

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I don't know the full details, only heard about it myself the other day, but as far as I know, raising margin requirements has the effect of putting off long speculation in the market and therefore takes the wind out of any up trend.

Also known as BLATANTLY MANIPULATING THE MARKET.

On the positive side it shows that TPTB are resorting to desperate measures to take the heat off their backs, which, while putting downwards pressure on the market, is indicative of where the market is truly headed.

Having said that, as of today I'm out of gold and silver, traded it all in for some seashells. As well as looking pretty, the big ones make a lovely noise when you blow into them too, that's something that stupid old useless gold doesn't do for starters. ;)

EDIT: What Toto said in the post above, cheers Toto. I would beg to differ that this means they can control the price in the longer term. Surely it screams they are losing control of the market and are resorting to dirty tricks to suppress prices. You can't fight reality for ever, especially if the main alternative you are offering is a rapidly debasing currency.

This has nothing to do really with so called manipulation of the market. It is perfectly legal and is prudent. Margins are changed all the time in all markets in order to remove speculative froth. In the share markets the margins are frequently changed. One could argue that this technique could be used in the housing market to help control speculation.

Blatant and illegal manipulation is something entirely different. That would be where a party or parties tries to push the price down by the coordinated exercise of certain market positions, either short or long.

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I once heard that if you distributed all money equally in a free-market society, that within a week 90% of the money would be in the hands of 10% of the population. Human nature. Most people don't understand money/wealth and feel compelled to spend whatever they have at any given time due to their cave-man like genes that demand instant gratification. As a caveman you needed all your needs met immediately - water, food, shelter, this is one theory why modern man can have trouble controlling spending supposedly.

Therefore, whatever the monetary standard, the rich will always end up with most of it. Is it any different with fiat?

Now give me my gold standard! ;)

Whilst accumulation is a problem, as you've indicated, with any form of money, if it happens with gold (as has been the case in the past) the rest of us will starve, as there is no more of it to be had.

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This has nothing to do really with so called manipulation of the market. It is perfectly legal and is prudent.

I think they have decided to put a ceiling on gold now, and to slowly deflate it. This can be done with margins.

isn't "putting a ceiling on gold" and "slowly deflating it" market manipulation whether legal or otherwise?

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  • 140 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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